Biden suggests voting for Republicans is a threat to democracy

[Sparktrader]

Just now, placeholder said:

Thank you for your reasoned and evidence based argument. Such a valuable contribution. Not at all just mere venting.

Just facts. I deal in facts. He is embarrassing.

[Hanaguma]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

They had their weapons stored nearby...waiting for Trump's call... as cited in the prior news reports here.

 

And as I said above, ONE gun is all it takes.

 

One gun is all it takes to do what? Win an insurrection in a city that has thousands of police, plus military, plus armed agents of the federal government?  

 

The vagueness of the argument is quite telling. "They" had "their weapons" nearby.  Who and how many?  These are crucial details to determine how seriously to take the situation. If two thousand militia members showed up, armed to the teeth, then we have an insurrection.  If 4 or 5 rednecks bring their pistols, we dont. It is pretty simple. 

[Slip]

3 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Just facts. I deal in facts. He is embarrassing.

That is literally an opinion, or should we call it a maga-fact?

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Just facts. I deal in facts. He is embarrassing.

What Slip wrote. Although I guess i will take your word for it that you feel embarrassed. I suppose that's a fact of sorts. Not even close to dispositive, but thanks for sharing your feelings with us.

[Mac Mickmanus]

31 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

I am not defending their actions whatsoever. The idiots who vandalized the Capitol deserve to be punished and mocked.  But not taken so seriously because they were incapable of doing any serious long term damage to the institutions of the nation. They had neither the means nor the intellectual horsepower to do it. 

 

OK, let's play "what if".  Worst case scenario: What if they actually DID find Pence and Pelosi and actually harmed them? The election results would not have changed, the vast majority of Americans would consider them murdering scumbags, and life would have gone on.  We would still have President Biden and a functioning political system. 

 

THAT is the difference between a riot and an insurrection. 

Yes, it was a protest that went a bit too far and the Dems are trying to use it as  reason as to why people should vote Dem next time .

  Trump left. Biden took over , democracy continued  and wasn't under threat 

[Bkk Brian]

11 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Again, how many is that? He brought an AR, what about the guys he traveled with? He also testified that his Oath Keeper friends didnt carry their guns into the Capitol "because it was illegal to do so". These guys really sound like hard core insurrectionists, don't they?

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/12/politics/oath-keeper-guns-dc-january-6/index.html

Are you being deliberately disingenuous. He testifies to "a mass of guns" He had not seen that many since being in the military.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, it was a protest that went a bit too far and the Dems are trying to use it as  reason as to why people should vote Dem next time .

  Trump left. Biden took over , democracy continued  and wasn't under threat 

Well, given that there are several Republicans running for Secretary of State who claim that there was widespread voter fraud, even in the face of no valid evidence in their respective states, that seems to constitute a threat to democracy.

[Hanaguma]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Are you being deliberately disingenuous. He testifies to "a mass of guns" He had not seen that many since being in the military.

Not at all, I just want to know how many. "A mass of guns" says nothing.  And apparently it didn't bother the folks who were questioning him either.  All irrelevant because the guns were all (however many) left in a hotel room across the river, not at the Capitol.  These guys were pretty lousy at insurrection. Bring their guns all the way from Florida and then leave them at the hotel across the river because of Washington DC's strict gun laws.   

 

Does that sound like a serious group of revolutionaries to you? 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Not at all, I just want to know how many. "A mass of guns" says nothing.  And apparently it didn't bother the folks who were questioning him either.  All irrelevant because the guns were all (however many) left in a hotel room across the river, not at the Capitol.  These guys were pretty lousy at insurrection. Bring their guns all the way from Florida and then leave them at the hotel across the river because of Washington DC's strict gun laws.   

 

Does that sound like a serious group of revolutionaries to you? 

 

 

& I've already answered you, a mass of guns more than he's ever seen since being in the military. 

 

But yes I agree they were fortunately not the brightest sparks at their attempts at insurrection. Since when have these right wing loons been anything other?

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

& I've already answered you, a mass of guns more than he's ever seen since being in the military. 

 

But yes I agree they were fortunately not the brightest sparks at their attempts at insurrection. Since when have these right wing loons been anything other?

In other words, you don't know.  I get it, trying to squeeze outrage out of this is hard.  But let's say, for argument, that "a mass of guns" is 20 guns.  You think that will get the job done? Sitting across the river because the big brave revolutionaries are leery of breaking Washington DC's strict gun laws?  That alone should tell you that these guys were not anything like the hardcore insurrectionists that the media and the Democratic party are so eagerly seeking. 

 

These guys couldn't pose a threat to an election for dog catcher in Lower East Armpit Arkansas, let alone the presidential campaign. 

[BangkokReady]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

MAGA Republicans

What is a "MAGA Republican"?

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

In other words, you don't know.  I get it, trying to squeeze outrage out of this is hard.  But let's say, for argument, that "a mass of guns" is 20 guns.  You think that will get the job done? Sitting across the river because the big brave revolutionaries are leery of breaking Washington DC's strict gun laws?  That alone should tell you that these guys were not anything like the hardcore insurrectionists that the media and the Democratic party are so eagerly seeking. 

 

These guys couldn't pose a threat to an election for dog catcher in Lower East Armpit Arkansas, let alone the presidential campaign. 

Considering he did not even tell the court how many, probably because he didn't count them himself, then yes you can safely assume I don't know....lol

 

Now whether a mass of guns more than he's seen since his day in the military means 50, 100 or whatever, you said it yourself they were lousy. About as lousy as your attempts to minimize what happened on the 6th Jan.

[Hanaguma]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Considering he did not even tell the court how many, probably because he didn't count them himself, then yes you can safely assume I don't know....lol

 

Now whether a mass of guns more than he's seen since his day in the military means 50, 100 or whatever, you said it yourself they were lousy. About as lousy as your attempts to minimize what happened on the 6th Jan.

Do you honestly, seriously believe that this group of  dudes was a serious threat to the American political system? That they wanted to storm the Capitol and hang the VP, but at the same time were reluctant to bring their guns? It is illogical in the extreme. 

 

I am in no way minimizing what happened on January 6.  This isn't like the 9/11 hoax people. The event happened. Property was damaged, Cops were injured. A protester was shot. A group of idiots got worked up and were out of control.  It was bad.  It was an embarrassment to the country. 

 

But it wasn't an actual threat to America's political institutions in any meaningful, long term way. These were deluded idiots who literally didn't know what to do once they actually breached the Capitol building itself. There was no organization, no attempt to reach out to Americans across the country and declare the New Revolution. 

 

Pure political paranoia, fuelled by a healthy dose of Bad Orange Man Derangement Syndrome.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Do you honestly, seriously believe that this group of  dudes was a serious threat to the American political system? That they wanted to storm the Capitol and hang the VP, but at the same time were reluctant to bring their guns? It is illogical in the extreme. 

 

I am in no way minimizing what happened on January 6.  This isn't like the 9/11 hoax people. The event happened. Property was damaged, Cops were injured. A protester was shot. A group of idiots got worked up and were out of control.  It was bad.  It was an embarrassment to the country. 

 

But it wasn't an actual threat to America's political institutions in any meaningful, long term way. These were deluded idiots who literally didn't know what to do once they actually breached the Capitol building itself. There was no organization, no attempt to reach out to Americans across the country and declare the New Revolution. 

 

Pure political paranoia, fuelled by a healthy dose of Bad Orange Man Derangement Syndrome.

Yes your minimizing what happened and continue do do so in every post you make. Where did I claim they were serious threat to the American political system? I thought I made myself clear when I stated that the right wing loons were not bright enough for that.

[Hanaguma]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes your minimizing what happened and continue do do so in every post you make. Where did I claim they were serious threat to the American political system? I thought I made myself clear when I stated that the right wing loons were not bright enough for that.

... so you DON'T think they were an  actual threat to "our democracy" then.... got it. 

 

I agree that most of the guys I saw on Jan 6 were not the sharpest knives in the drawer by any stretch of the imagination.   They deserve to be punished and mocked.

 

I am genuinely curious as to what exactly you think I am minimizing? I have been accused before of minimizing the whole "threat to our democracy" as a result of the riots. But not the actual riot itself. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

They tried, and failed, in 2020. And now they're back again in 2022 with different approaches:

 

Judge restricts how right-wing group can patrol drop boxes

 

When armed, masked men and people with long telescopic camera lenses showed up at ballot drop boxes in Arizona to stalk voters, many public officials were appalled. Voter intimidation complaints were filed and sent to the Department of Justice.

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/media/2022/11/02/arizona-conspiracies-voting-ballot-drop-boxes-donie-pkg-cnntm-vpx.cnn

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Hanaguma said:

... so you DON'T think they were an  actual threat to "our democracy" then.... got it. 

 

I agree that most of the guys I saw on Jan 6 were not the sharpest knives in the drawer by any stretch of the imagination.   They deserve to be punished and mocked.

 

I am genuinely curious as to what exactly you think I am minimizing? I have been accused before of minimizing the whole "threat to our democracy" as a result of the riots. But not the actual riot itself. 

Jan 6th was never a threat to democracy, as justice would have prevailed in the end, however it was certainly a failed attempt to overthrow the democracy, is that plain enough for you?

 

Is it also plain enough that had they actually got hold of certain members they were after we could have been looking at murder charges.

[Bkk Brian]

47 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

They tried, and failed, in 2020. And now they're back again in 2022 with different approaches:

 

Judge restricts how right-wing group can patrol drop boxes

 

When armed, masked men and people with long telescopic camera lenses showed up at ballot drop boxes in Arizona to stalk voters, many public officials were appalled. Voter intimidation complaints were filed and sent to the Department of Justice.

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/media/2022/11/02/arizona-conspiracies-voting-ballot-drop-boxes-donie-pkg-cnntm-vpx.cnn

 

Cowards too scared to even show their faces. Biden is right on this 100%

[Hanaguma]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Jan 6th was never a threat to democracy, as justice would have prevailed in the end, however it was certainly a failed attempt to overthrow the democracy, is that plain enough for you?

 

Is it also plain enough that had they actually got hold of certain members they were after we could have been looking at murder charges.

That is a reasonable position, I can understand how people can see it that way. I just tire of the constant heavy breathing and "we are one small step from fascism" crowd and their faux vituperation. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Jan 6th was never a threat to democracy, as justice would have prevailed in the end, however it was certainly a failed attempt to overthrow the democracy, is that plain enough for you?

 

 

Not quite , they believed that the elections were not fair and that there had been some tampering with the result and they considered the election result to be un democratic .

  So in their beliefs, they were actually defending democracy .

Whether they were right or wrong is irrelevant , the point is that they were defending democracy, rather than trying to over throw it .

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Not quite , they believed that the elections were not fair and that there had been some tampering with the result and they considered the election result to be un democratic .

  So in their beliefs, they were actually defending democracy .

Whether they were right or wrong is irrelevant , the point is that they were defending democracy, rather than trying to over throw it .

 

Rubbish just because you have a conspiracy belief with absolutely no proof does not give you the right to do what happened on 6th Jan. To say they were there defending democracy does not help them in court where they have been charged and sentenced

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

https://news.yahoo.com/jan-6-capitol-riot-arrest-numbers-one-year-later-180035360.html

 

"75

The percentage of Trump voters now convinced the election was "rigged and stolen" from him, according to the most recent Yahoo News/YouGov poll

 

84

The percentage of American adults who are worried about the future of democracy, according to the poll

60

According to the poll, the percentage of U.S. adults who believe an attack like the one on Jan. 6 could happen again"

 

 

[Sparktrader]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Rubbish just because you have a conspiracy belief with absolutely no proof does not give you the right to do what happened on 6th Jan. To say they were there defending democracy does not help them in court where they have been charged and sentenced

Which has nothing to do with 99.99% of people who didnt use violence.

 

The Democrats will get smashed in mid terms and rightly so. Worst top 2 ever.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Sparktrader said:

Which has nothing to do with 99.99% of people who didnt use violence.

 

The Democrats will get smashed in mid terms and rightly so. Worst top 2 ever.

I would check your facts on that first: 

 

928 people charged so far, many more yet to come

 

At least 928 people have been charged in the Capitol insurrection so far. This searchable table shows them all.

https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1

[Bkk Brian]

34 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

They were there because they conspired to prevent the peaceful transfer of power in a democratic process. Yes they were there to overthrow that very act

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

 

 

Key facts to know about the Jan. 6 insurrection

Experts say it’s challenging to accurately estimate the crowd size because of the absence of aerial imagery, but they put a broad crowd size estimate at “several thousand.”

 

More than 140 law enforcement officers were physically harmed during the insurrection, according to a special congressional committee investigating the attack.

 

Rioters left behind feces, blood, bullet holes, graffiti and bear repellent.

 

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-01-05/by-the-numbers-jan-6-anniversary

 

[onthedarkside]

Several off-topic, trolling and misinformation posts have been removed.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

They were there because they conspired to prevent the peaceful transfer of power in a democratic process. Yes they were there to overthrow that very act

To repeat myself, in their opinion, they were defending democracy rather than trying to over throw it 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

To repeat myself, in their opinion, they were defending democracy rather than trying to over throw it 

Your opinion and that of the legal courts does not match

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

To repeat myself, in their opinion, they were defending democracy rather than trying to over throw it 

In fact, what it's actually called is "seditious conspiracy," a federal criminal offense:

 

Prosecutors rest in Jan. 6 seditious conspiracy trial of Oath Keepers members

After a month of testimony, the government rested its case Thursday in the seditious conspiracy trial against Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes and four other members of the far-right group.

 

The trial is the most consequential yet to emerge from the Justice Department's sprawling investigation into the deadly Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol. Rhodes and the other defendants are accused of plotting to use force to prevent Joe Biden from taking office as president.

...

In one snippet, Rhodes can be heard saying: "If he's [Trump] not going to do the right thing, and he's just gonna let himself be removed illegally, then we should have brought rifles. We could have fixed it right then and there. I'd hang f****** Pelosi from the lamppost."

 

https://www.kedm.org/npr-news/2022-11-03/prosecutors-rest-in-jan-6-seditious-conspiracy-trial-of-oath-keepers-members