Why is the UK struggling more than other countries?

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The Irish  Good Friday agreement was signed BEFORE the UK left the E.U.

  The GFA was signed in 1998 and everyone was happy with the agreement  then Brexit came a long and the E.U requires Ireland to have a hard border between its E.U territory and non E.U territory and that hard border was back to where the Irish/Northern Irish borer used to be .

  The GFA and E.U rules contradict each other , one requires a hard border and the other requires a soft border  

   

Election results for Stormont and polls show majority support for the current protocol arrangements. 

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The Irish  Good Friday agreement was signed BEFORE the UK left the E.U.

  The GFA was signed in 1998 and everyone was happy with the agreement  then Brexit came a long and the E.U requires Ireland to have a hard border between its E.U territory and non E.U territory and that hard border was back to where the Irish/Northern Irish borer used to be .

  The GFA and E.U rules contradict each other , one requires a hard border and the other requires a soft border  

   

So no answer to the question.

[Mac Mickmanus]

28 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Then why did the UK sign an agreement they can't fulfill?

Oh, you were talking about the Brexit ?

The UK did indeed fulfil that agreement 

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Oh, you were talking about the Brexit ?

The UK did indeed fulfil that agreement 

Again avoiding the answer. Even simple questions and statements are too difficult for you.

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, stevenl said:

Again avoiding the answer. Even simple questions and statements are too difficult for you.

I have answered the question , I answered  the question twice.

 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The hard Irish border moved into the sea (between U.K and Ireland) to keep the GFA and the E.U hard border policy they erected a new hard border out in the sea and this is unacceptable to Northern Irish as it cuts them off from the rest of the U.K.

   The E.U does require closed borders , or perhaps hard border would be the better way to describe the borders in order to enforce E.U regulation .

   The GFA and E.U hard border rules contradict each other and there needs to a be a compromise somewhere from one/both of the sides

  

Not for the first time, you have completely changed the meaning and context of what you originally posted.

 

Your original claim

 

" .... that needs sorting out as the UK/Ireland agreement conflicts with the E.U rules and to solve that issue there will need to be some compromise somewhere and either the UK/Ireland agreement needs to be changed or the E.U rules need to be changed as they conflict with one another ..."

 

That is completely false. The existing Agreement does not conflict with EU regulations and/or the Good Friday agreement. 

 

Your revised text is partially correct. Yes, there is a border down the North Sea. Yes, it is unacceptable to NI unionists (both of these points were made by me). Yes, unless a non-member state remains in the Single Market and Customs Union, then a border between the EU state and non-EU state will be needed somewhere. No one has denied this.

 

However, you are incorrect in stating that the GFA and EU regulations contradict each other. They do not as the current Agreement proves.

 

The problem is that by signing the current Agreement, Johnson created a political problem for his - and successive - UK governments. That he was unaware of this problem is beyond belief. Unionist politicians had warned that such an arrangement was unacceptable to them almost as soon as Article 50 was invoked.

Edited December 31, 2022 by RayC
Clarification

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

 

However, you are incorrect in stating that the GFA and EU regulations contradict each other. They do not as the current Agreement proves.

 

 

The GFA requires an open border .

The E.U requires a closed border .

It cannot be both  an open border and a closed border .

The current temporary border agreement has moved the border into the sea and that  border issue needs to be resolved .

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The GFA requires an open border .

The E.U requires a closed border .

It cannot be both  an open border and a closed border .

The current temporary border agreement has moved the border into the sea and that  border issue needs to be resolved .

Why not tell EU to get lost,  so much easier. 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The GFA requires an open border .

The E.U requires a closed border .

It cannot be both  an open border and a closed border .

The current temporary border agreement has moved the border into the sea and that  border issue needs to be resolved .

Do you think that the EU rules are like the laws of physics? That they are immutable and eternal?

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do you think that the EU rules are like the laws of physics? That they are immutable and eternal?

No, I don't think that the E.U rules are immutable and eternal like the laws of physics 

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The GFA requires an open border .

The E.U requires a closed border .

It cannot be both  an open border and a closed border .

The current temporary border agreement has moved the border into the sea and that  border issue needs to be resolved .

Yes both can be true. It depends upon where the border exists.

The current UK EU agreement places the border between NI and rUK (down the Irish Sea). Consequently no border required between Ni and Ireland, satisfies the GFA.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Yes both can be true. It depends upon where the border exists.

The current UK EU agreement places the border between NI and rUK (down the Irish Sea). Consequently no border required between Ni and Ireland, satisfies the GFA.

Putting a hard border between Ireland and mainland UK goes against the GFA (unless those involved all agree to it , which they haven't)

[placeholder]

27 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, I don't think that the E.U rules are immutable and eternal like the laws of physics 

Then why do you insist that there is a contradiction? The rules and laws governing the EU were made by members of the EU and can be changed by them. An exception is not a contradiction.

[Bluespunk]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Putting a hard border between Ireland and mainland UK goes against the GFA (unless those involved all agree to it , which they haven't)

No it doesn’t. 
 

You need to research before posting incorrect nonsense such as this. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Bluespunk

[Kwasaki]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No it doesn’t. 
 

You need to research before posting incorrect nonsense such as this. 

The only nonsense is the stupid hardline of the EU. 

Then again what would you expect from mafia. 

[cleopatra2]

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Putting a hard border between Ireland and mainland UK goes against the GFA (unless those involved all agree to it , which they haven't)

Matters of EU , SM and CU are reserved to UK Parliament. UK agreed to the provisions.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Then why do you insist that there is a contradiction? The rules and laws governing the EU were made by members of the EU and can be changed by them. An exception is not a contradiction.

I am saying that two separate laws/rules contradict each other  . The GFA and E.U laws say two different things . 

   One says hard . the other says soft .

 I doubt the E.U would change their laws about hard borders  , because the result would be the end of the E.U as a single entity

[cleopatra2]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I am saying that two separate laws/rules contradict each other  . The GFA and E.U laws say two different things . 

   One says hard . the other says soft .

 I doubt the E.U would change their laws about hard borders  , because the result would be the end of the E.U as a single entity

This appears to be illogical.

If the GFA and EU laws are contradictory, then they must have always been contradictory.

 

As previously stated it depends upon where the border is placed and operational arrangements.

Currently NI remains in the CU and SM , thus no border on island or Ireland.

Edited December 31, 2022 by cleopatra2

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

The only nonsense is the stupid hardline of the EU. 

Then again what would you expect from mafia. 

Wrong. 
 

Just about every comment made by the poster you defend on Ireland is incorrect, misleading and based in ignorance of the subject they spout on. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

This appears to be illogical.

If the GFA and EU laws are contradictory, then they must have always been contradictory.

 

As previously stated it depends upon where the border is placed and operational arrangements.

Currently NI remains in the CU and SM , thus no border on island or Ireland.

Circumstances changed when the UK left the E.U and because the UK left the E.U and then stopped following E.U laws, that is when the GFA and E.U rules became contradictory .

  GFA and E.U laws applied to both sides when the UK was in the E.U , that changed when the UK left the E.U and no longer abided by E.U laws 

[cleopatra2]

21 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Circumstances changed when the UK left the E.U and because the UK left the E.U and then stopped following E.U laws, that is when the GFA and E.U rules became contradictory .

  GFA and E.U laws applied to both sides when the UK was in the E.U , that changed when the UK left the E.U and no longer abided by E.U laws 

Arrangements were made for NI to remain in the SM and CU , thus no border on the Island of Ireland. The GFA remains intact.

 

The protocol agreed that NI would follow a limited number of EU rules for the SM and CU to ensure protection of the GFA

Edited December 31, 2022 by cleopatra2

[Mac Mickmanus]

22 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Arrangements were made for NI to remain in the SM and CU , thus no border on the Island of Ireland. The GFA remains intact.

 

The protocol agreed that NI would follow a limited number of EU rules for the SM and CU to ensure protection of the GFA

There needs to be a hard border somewhere between the E.U /Ireland and the U.K where people and goods can transfer from one to another and the location of that border needs to be agreed upon by all signatories of the GFA and that isn't happening at the moment as one signatory hasn't agreed to that  .

   That is the issue that needs to be resolved 

[cleopatra2]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

There needs to be a hard border somewhere between the E.U /Ireland and the U.K where people and goods can transfer from one to another and the location of that border needs to be agreed upon by all signatories of the GFA and that isn't happening at the moment as one signatory hasn't agreed to that  .

   That is the issue that needs to be resolved 

Yes it does.

Which signatory did not agree ?

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by cleopatra2

[cleopatra2]

5 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Yes it does.

Which signatory did not agree ?

 

 

The protocol means that currently all commercial agri-food products entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain have to go through makeshift facilities at Northern Ireland ports.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-64112552

[kwilco]

The hapless government of Rishi Sunak is still trying to drip=feed Brexit onto the UK whilst at the same time trying to hold together a crumbling economy and standards of living. We know for a start that re-joining certain aspects of the EU were brought up in Cabinet but that is a U-turn that this current government could not survive. We can seen how fragile the post Brexit UK economy has become when Brexit PM Truss had to be quickly removed by her own Tory nabobs after nearly bringing the country to its knees.

 

 Most of the info offered here is also available on the UK government website and Reuters and BBC. …and outlined in posts above…..

Since the referendum, the UK has had 6 prime ministers – 5 prime ministers in just 6 years -  this is the fastest turnover in a century.

 

Resulting from a massive political miscalculation by Cameron the UK plunged itself into economic decline and political chaos.

It was clear from the start that the architects of the Brexit vote, in particular Boris Johnson, had no real plan for untangling decades of economic and legal ties with the EU, so the chaos followed. ..and the government has failed time and again to untangle the EU treaty as it needs to be replaced by UK legislation that can limit the damage to so many aspects of the UK – from trade, to politics to the very Union of the UK. It seems Boris was so keen to become PM, he lost sight of the ramifications of his own ambition….

 

Technically the UK left the EU on midnight, Jan 31 2020….. but it isn’t that simple……

Basically the government is trying to reduce the economic damage caused by the Johnson-Frost deal

 

UK Government announced on the 28 April the further postponement of import controls planned to come into force July 2022. Most of has now been postponed until late 2023…..or later – e.g. The government is in the process of furtive “un-Brexiting”

Time and again the Brexit govt. is postponing full Brexit as they know the damage it will cause.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the minister for Brexit opportunities, said it would be wrong to go ahead with this post-Brexit paperwork while supply chains were already facing pressure from rising energy prices and the effects of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. – This is therefore admitting that Brexit is putting an extra “struggle” on the UK.

 

Import and export is the most obvious bottleneck – the government keep postponing the inevitable bureaucratic chaos.

E.G. - Pre-notification on IPAFFS (Import of Products, Animals, Food and Feed Systems) of goods imported through ports

The govt. has postponed the introduction of prenotification until later in 2023.

 

Northern Ireland - The 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement in April 2023 is looming. New elections for the Belfast Assembly have been postponed, but cannot be put off indefinitely. The policies of the UK government would in effect put an almost block on the free trade of most items with the EU.

 

UKCA marking - Government (in the shape of Rees-Mogg) has also been questioned on fourth delay to import regulations - Business secretary Grant Shapps has announced delays to the introduction of the UKCA mark, (UK Conformity Assessed)giving business more time to continue using the EU mark – a move justified by the need to avoid extra costs at a time of economic fragility. The result is that manufacturers, producers, importer and exporters have no certainty for the future they just carry at the moment as if we hadn’t left the EU but with extra paperwork. In the future it may well result in the banning of many UK from the EU and other countries that rely on EU standards for their production (e.g. the Thai chicken industry) this means businesses can continue to use the CE marking and reversed epsilon marking on the GB market until 31 December 2024…. Or even later by then!

 

 

Even private holidaymakers are feeling the effects of Brexit. Borders now see long queues of Brits waiting to clear their passports all over the EU.  – Britain still has third country status at European borders. They could sign to a freedom of movement agreement such as Norway or Switzerland.

 

 

Treaties – the government said that by the end of 2022 they would have replaced over 60% of FTAs. They have not got any=where near this target – it’s about 60%.

The thing is these treaties are for the most part reinstating agreements that were voided on leaving the EU – but the Brexit government has not even been able to establish these. They also made much ado about signing treaties with the USA – who quite simply aren’t that interested as they have much bigger fish to fry. Why would anyone bother going through the hassle of a treaty with the UK when they already have a similar treaty with the EU that covers everything they need anyway. It’s just another layer of bureaucracy for something they already have. One big drawback for potential treaty signers is the UKCA situation – how can you sell stuff to a country that won’t tell you their standards?

 

Boris’s promises – look a bit hollow now…..

“A comprehensive Canada style free trade deal between the UK and the EU, a deal that will protect jobs across this country.” -  Not done

 

“A deal that will allow UK goods and components to be sold without tariffs and without quotas in the EU market.” – resulting in extra layers of bureaucracy that is strangling trade.

 

“A deal which will if anything should allow our companies and our exporters to do even more business with our European friends.” – quite the opposite has happened

 

“And yet which achieves something that the people of this country instinctively knew was doable.” – Boris – and it is patently not “doable”.

 

The main problem facing the UK today is how to reverse the recession caused by Brexit. The main obstacle is the intransient obstinacy of those who supported Brexit. It was brought in not by reason and thought, it was a product of “feeling” and prejudices. So as it wasn’t based on evidence or reason it is almost impossible to argue against those who still support it as evidence and reason is of no consequence.

Brexit will be reversed eventually as the slender group of people in the middle of these politics gradually come to the conclusion the Brexit was a massive blunder – the majority of Brexiteer won’t change their attitude, but they probably are too blinkered to notice the gradual return to common sense and the EU.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

16 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Yes it does.

Which signatory did not agree ?

 

 

No ones actually agreed to anything at the moment because the GFA states that all parties must agree to any major changes and talks are currently in progress to any further agreements , the situation at the moment are just temporary measures  until they can come to an agreement they all agree to

[Bluespunk]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

No ones actually agreed to anything at the moment because the GFA states that all parties must agree to any major changes and talks are currently in progress to any further agreements , the situation at the moment are just temporary measures  until they can come to an agreement they all agree to

Gobbledegook to cover up your complete lack of any understanding on the subject of Northern Ireland protocol and the Good Friday Agreement. 

[cleopatra2]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No ones actually agreed to anything at the moment because the GFA states that all parties must agree to any major changes and talks are currently in progress to any further agreements , the situation at the moment are just temporary measures  until they can come to an agreement they all agree to

The GFA makes no such claim with regards to the topic on hand.

Matters of the EU, SM, CU and trade deals are reserved to UK parliament , not the devolved adminstration.

 

A concession to the DUP was provided in the Protocol for the people of NI to decide if they wish  to continue with the present protocol position of SM, CU rule alignment after 4 years of implementation and subsequent 4 years.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

The GFA makes no such claim with regards to the topic on hand.

Matters of the EU, SM, CU and trade deals are reserved to UK parliament , not the devolved adminstration.

 

A concession to the DUP was provided in the Protocol for the people of NI to decide if they wish  to continue with the present protocol position of SM, CU rule alignment after 4 years of implementation and subsequent 4 years.

The GFA states that Irish unification can only happen when all sides agree to it and theres been a vote on it and Unionist group claim that moving a hard  border between the UK and Ireland would create  a united Ireland and the DUP find that unacceptable 

[Bluespunk]

15 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The GFA states that Irish unification can only happen when all sides agree to it and theres been a vote on it and Unionist group claim that moving a hard  border between the UK and Ireland would create  a united Ireland and the DUP find that unacceptable 

The people of Northern Ireland have shown in elections and polls they are in favour of the protocol.
 

The unionists are not respecting the vote by preventing Stormont meeting. 

 

Do some research.