Do all Thai's have the authority to issue long term leases?

[NorthernRyland]

I'm curious, I know there exists 30 year land leases in Thailand but is there some limitations on who has the authority to issue these? I mean, can anyone Thai citizen owning land produce one of the these contracts through a lawyer or does the land authority need to give permission and have various conditions etc...?

[Peterw42]

30 year leases are noted on the chanote. Written on the back.

I think you will find it's not an official recognised lease unless noted on chanote.

[JBChiangRai]

Any lease over 3 years has to be recorded at the land office or it's invalid, and as previously mentioned, it will be recorded on the chanote.  Unfortunately, taxes also have to be paid.

[NorthernRyland]

54 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

30 year leases are noted on the chanote. Written on the back.

I think you will find it's not an official recognised lease unless noted on chanote.

Does the lease originate on the chanote, how does it get there in the first place? You purchase the land is transferred so I assume the lease starts then providing you set it up, but who has the authority to do that?

[NorthernRyland]

42 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Any lease over 3 years has to be recorded at the land office or it's invalid

So when you buy the land can you arrange the lease at the land office during transfer ?

[donx]

From your posts, it sounds like you are interested in paying for a 30 year lease. Do you intend to pay it to whomever is currently owning the land or do you expect some other Thai to purchase the land and then you obtain a 30 year lease from the new owner?

 

So long as the Thai owner is not a child (person under 20 years of age) and the land has a Chanote, then that Thai person should be able to lease you the land and have the lease registered on the Chanote.

[NorthernRyland]

38 minutes ago, donx said:

From your posts, it sounds like you are interested in paying for a 30 year lease. Do you intend to pay it to whomever is currently owning the land or do you expect some other Thai to purchase the land and then you obtain a 30 year lease from the new owner?

Ok so I'm planning to purchase some land with my wife and I want to protect the case of her death and me being evicted from the land, especially when I'm too old to recover from the loss. Secondarily if there's a divorce (amicable of course) and she would be willing to allow me to purchase back her 50% share of the property.

 

I was thinking if there was a will part of it could be transferring the land to family member who could then lease it back to me. She's not close to most of her family (the ones she is will die well before us) so it seems possible to me the land will be transferred to one of them whom I've never met and am not close with.

[cjinchiangrai]

It is considered a capital lease because it frequently can exceed the lifetime of the owner and it must be recorded in the Amphoe land office. That said, any land owner can enter into a contract like this. The clerks at the land office will review it and make sure the interests of the Thai owner are met. These include an arms length transaction, fair remuneration, and equitable terms of dissolution. If you meet these requirements, they file an addendum to the deed (chanote).

 

[cjinchiangrai]

36 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Ok so I'm planning to purchase some land with my wife and I want to protect the case of her death and me being evicted from the land, especially when I'm too old to recover from the loss. Secondarily if there's a divorce (amicable of course) and she would be willing to allow me to purchase back her 50% share of the property.

 

I was thinking if there was a will part of it could be transferring the land to family member who could then lease it back to me. She's not close to most of her family (the ones she is will die well before us) so it seems possible to me the land will be transferred to one of them whom I've never met and am not close with.

That will not work that way. You cannot own the land for more than 6 months.

 

We have it in ours that her heirs or assigns must honor the lease. If she sells the property, it is a mandatory clause for the buyer. She owns the land outright for which I agreed to lease for 180,000 in two lump sum payments and build a house with a minimum value of 1 million baht within 3 years.

Edited November 28, 2022 by cjinchiangrai

[NorthernRyland]

2 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

That will not work that way. You cannot own the land for more than 6 months. We have it in ours that her heirs or assigns must honor the lease. Being a good bit younger, I do not expect her to precede me. She owns the land outright for which I agreed to lease for 240,000 in two lump sum payments and build a house with a minimum value of 1 million baht within 3 years.

I'm not following.  The lease can't be longer than 6 months or if we own the land longer than 6 months a lease can not be appended or transferred?

 

In your case your wife owns the land outright, so what is the lease about?

[NorthernRyland]

12 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

These include an arms length transaction, fair remuneration, and equitable terms of dissolution. If you meet these requirements, they file an addendum to the deed (chanote).

Are you referring to the usufruct here? I started another long thread on this topic and this was brought up many times. 

[cjinchiangrai]

19 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

I'm not following.  The lease can't be longer than 6 months or if we own the land longer than 6 months a lease can not be appended or transferred?

 

In your case your wife owns the land outright, so what is the lease about?

If she dies and you inherit land, you must transfer it to a Thai within 6 months. Falangs can only hold land in a short term transitional status.

[NorthernRyland]

Just now, cjinchiangrai said:

If she dies and you inherit land, you must transfer it to a Thai within 6 months. Falangs can only hold land in a short term transitional status.

ohhhh so the long term lease isn't possible with non-Thais? That defeats my entire idea then.

[cjinchiangrai]

19 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Are you referring to the usufruct here? I started another long thread on this topic and this was brought up many times. 

The Usufruct is the lease contract and must include consideration with objective value. Cash is the easy way. The contract is most effective when it shows arms length exchanges. A 50 baht per month lease is not arms length. In our case I gave her 180k in cash. She later spent it on upgrades to the house but there was a clear transaction against the lease.

. 

[cjinchiangrai]

3 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

ohhhh so the long term lease isn't possible with non-Thais? That defeats my entire idea then.

That is why the lease agreement needs to be included in the deed. Her nephew can inherit the property but it is yours to use through the term of the lease. He can wait, he is going to get it in the end anyway.

 

[NorthernRyland]

1 minute ago, cjinchiangrai said:

The Usufruct is the lease contract and must include consideration with objective value. Cash is the easy way. The contract is most effective when it shows arms length exchanges. A 50 baht per month lease is not arms length. In our case I gave her 180k in cash. She later spent it on upgrades to the house but there was a clear transaction against the lease.

I don't get this still. Why did you lease the land in your wife's name? how does that help?

 

I assume you paid for the property yourself so why does giving another 180k  cash help?

 

Sorry so many questions!

[NorthernRyland]

2 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

That is why the lease agreement needs to be included in the deed. Her nephew can inherit the property but it is yours to use through the term of the lease. He can wait, he is going to get it in the end anyway.

Maybe you'll answer in the other comment, but what does your lease say exactly? Whose name is it and what are the terms and conditions? Thanks.

 

EDIT: getting off the computer tonight so I'll have to respond tomorrow. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by NorthernRyland

[cjinchiangrai]

Just now, NorthernRyland said:

I don't get this still. Why did you lease the land in your wife's name? how does that help?

 

I assume you paid for the property yourself so why does giving another 180k  cash help?

 

Sorry so many questions!

We were not married at the time. She bought the land herself. (I helped a little) I rented the land from her with an initial payment of 90k and an additional 90k due at the completion of construction or 3 years. Construction won, but all of the elements of a contract were met. It is her property by deed, but it is mine to use throughout the term of the lease, including clauses for sale, death or separation.

 

 

 

[Richard 2020]

If she dies and you inherit land, you must transfer it to a Thai within 6 months. 

Falangs can only own land in a short-term temporary status.

Of course a Thai buyer will pay you a SUPER PRICE, especially since he knows that YOU have to sell ????

 

This has nothing to do with the property/house located on the land!

The house is yours, but it is NOT on your land!

 

And a lifelong right of residence, is after the death of the landowner, possibly worth nothing, if the heirs do not want to have you in "THEIR" house ????

There helps only move....!!

 

Therefore, only a CONDO, in your name is a safe alternative!

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

11 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Ok so I'm planning to purchase some land with my wife and I want to protect the case of her death and me being evicted from the land, especially when I'm too old to recover from the loss. Secondarily if there's a divorce (amicable of course) and she would be willing to allow me to purchase back her 50% share of the property.

 

I was thinking if there was a will part of it could be transferring the land to family member who could then lease it back to me. She's not close to most of her family (the ones she is will die well before us) so it seems possible to me the land will be transferred to one of them whom I've never met and am not close with.

A 30 year lease on the whole land is probably your best option. The lease has to be at a sensible price (i.e. true value) and it must be registered at the land office and taxes paid on that value.

 

You should be careful about the conditions in the lease, the lease will survive your wife dying or disposing of the land before the 30 years are up, but any other agreements in the lease will not as they are personal to the two parties of the lease, so be careful what you put in the agreement.  For example, access.  Regardless of what any new potentially hostile owner my say, you are allowed access to the property covered by the lease but only by foot/motorbike and only on paying 100 baht per year to the land owner.  Also consider things like water, if it comes from a pond on unleased land, the pond can be drained and you can only dig a well in the house.  So it would be safer to lease the whole land plot rather than just the house on land not covered by a lease. 

 

If your wife specifically wills the land to you (which she can do subject to any familial claims) and she then dies, you have a period of 1 year (it's not 6 months) during which time the land must be sold to a Thai national.  You could try to then sell it to a Thai company and then acquire control of the company, but this situation is one that the land office may suspect you are doing and under section's 73-75 of the land act may refuse to register the transfer.  Ideally, you would transfer it to another Thai national, paying the transfer taxes, then transfer it to a company which you later acquire (again paying more taxes).  If you lease the house but your wife owns the land and access but wills it to you, she can change her will anytime, e.g. if you separate.

 

EDIT: I would advise you to speak to a good lawyer.  A lease and an usufruct are not the same thing and an usufruct over the whole land may suit you better.  It's cheaper but it comes with some conditions and it can protect you for the whole of your lifetime even if your wife dies and leaves the land to someone else.  But if she wills the land to you, it then becomes complicated,  If you do split up during your lifetime, she cannot sell the land until you die.

Edited November 29, 2022 by JBChiangRai
added usufruct

[NorthernRyland]

10 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

A 30 year lease on the whole land is probably your best option. The lease has to be at a sensible price (i.e. true value) and it must be registered at the land office and taxes paid on that value.

Thanks for all the information. Yeah this is going over my head so I should get a lawyer. I must say that I'm very skeptical you can get around the laws against foreign land ownership by getting a 30 year lease. Why doesn't everyone do that then? 

 

Something not addressed here is the fact the property is marital asset, right? How can you divorce and then expect to hold the property afterwards? In my other thread I was merely hoping to liquidate the property 50/50 but there was doubt as to if that's even possible.