UK government could mitigate strike action with military to help keep public services running

[JonnyF]

On 12/5/2022 at 2:01 PM, placeholder said:

Given your political stances. it's not surprising that you support this kind of suppression of workers' rights.

I'm sure if you had a heart attack and there were no nurses on the ward to treat you, you'd be far more concerned about the suppression of worker's rights than your own right to medical care that you had paid for via compulsory taxation.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

I had no idea that nurses were forced to work against their will and had no right to seek out alternative employment that offers better pay and conditions.   On that basis I would support the right of nurses to strike until they gained the right to be able to leave their jobs and look for alternative employment as that does sound unfair to me.   Even private sector workers who have had and will continue to have pay freezes over the last few years have the freedom to look for other jobs.  

I suppose that is sarcasm.

The reference to being forced was in response to the poster that said nurses should be an essential service and not allowed to go on strike ergo forced to work against their will, but obviously you didn't read my post before having a rant.

 

I suppose you think that it's OK for nurses to be paid less than they are worth. Remember that when you end up in hospital and suffer from understaffing. I read somewhere that there is a shortage of more than 30,000 nursing staff in the NHS.

 

Your suggestion for work that offers better pay and conditions that nurses can do? I think librarians get better pay, but not needing thousands of them.

[James105]

36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I suppose that is sarcasm.

The reference to being forced was in response to the poster that said nurses should be an essential service and not allowed to go on strike ergo forced to work against their will, but obviously you didn't read my post before having a rant.

 

I suppose you think that it's OK for nurses to be paid less than they are worth. Remember that when you end up in hospital and suffer from understaffing. I read somewhere that there is a shortage of more than 30,000 nursing staff in the NHS.

 

Your suggestion for work that offers better pay and conditions that nurses can do? I think librarians get better pay, but not needing thousands of them.

The military (and I was once in the military) are not allowed to strike.   If they have a gripe about how much they are being paid, then they can either accept it or leave and seek new opportunities that have better pay.   Which is exactly what I did.   I didn't wait until there was a conflict in the world and try and seek to blackmail the government by withdrawing my services, I simply moved on.  

 

Yes, there is a shortage of nurses, but qualified nurses take advantage of this by quitting the NHS and then starting as an agency nurse with the NHS paying up to £2,500 per shift (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/11/nhs-pays-2500-shift-agency-nurses/).   Which goes back to the age old problem with the NHS of not managing their enormous budget effectively.   The solution to this cannot be to blackmail the public by effectively letting them die by not providing healthcare as they have withdrawn their services so they can get a bit more money.   Just like the military if someone enters a trade that provides an essential public service (helping people not die with a treatable condition for example) then they should accept that being able to strike for better pay is off the table.   

 

Personally I'd prefer to see a solution that does give nurses better pay, but paid for by the immediate cessation of hiring agency nurses and offering the agency nurses a better deal to be employed by the NHS again along with all the other employed nurses. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by James105

[placeholder]

39 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I'm sure if you had a heart attack and there were no nurses on the ward to treat you, you'd be far more concerned about the suppression of worker's rights than your own right to medical care that you had paid for via compulsory taxation.

I'm sure but if the Tories  gave a r*t'$ a$$ about how they treat their healthcare workers, the issue would never arise.

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I'm sure but if the Tories  gave a r*t'$ a$$ about how they treat their healthcare workers, the issue would never arise.

Well swerved. Bravo. ????

[Doctor Tom]

On 12/5/2022 at 1:55 PM, James105 said:

The military do not have the right to strike.   I see no reason that this same policy should not also be applied to other essential services such as nurses, teachers and transport.    Postal workers can strike if they want, although I am not sure anyone would actually notice.   

They should introduce that, but politicians of all colours have no balls to do it. They are all, to a man, woman, and whatever is in between, cowards with no principles beyond their own self interest.    Margaret Thatcher was the last and only one to tackle these issues. 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

The military (and I was once in the military) are not allowed to strike.   If they have a gripe about how much they are being paid, then they can either accept it or leave and seek new opportunities that have better pay.   Which is exactly what I did.   I didn't wait until there was a conflict in the world and try and seek to blackmail the government by withdrawing my services, I simply moved on.  

So you can quit the military any time you like? Just hand in your papers and you're out the door? They have to assent to your decision to leave? The UK must have very permissive armed forces.

[James105]

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So you can quit the military any time you like? Just hand in your papers and you're out the door? They have to assent to your decision to leave? The UK must have very permissive armed forces.

Yes.  You can leave the military (in the UK) any time you like.   No they cannot refuse you, and I have no idea why you would think that would be the case.  Obviously it might be different in WWIII and people men get drafted to defend the country but not in normal times.  

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, James105 said:

Yes.  You can leave the military (in the UK) any time you like.   No they cannot refuse you, and I have no idea why you would think that would be the case.  Obviously it might be different in WWIII and people men get drafted to defend the country but not in normal times.  

Not according to this.

https://www.parliament.uk/globalassets/documents/joint-committees/human-rights/Briefing_from_Forces_Watch_Terms_of_service.pdf

But it dates from 2011.

 

You do have to get permission. And while in the ordinary course of things, the armed forces may grant permission, they certainly have the right to deny it.

[mikeymike100]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Look up sarcasm.

I got the sarcasm, hence the laughing emoji!????

[James105]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Not according to this.

https://www.parliament.uk/globalassets/documents/joint-committees/human-rights/Briefing_from_Forces_Watch_Terms_of_service.pdf

But it dates from 2011.

 

You do have to get permission. And while in the ordinary course of things, the armed forces may grant permission, they certainly have the right to deny it.

Yes, well there are conditions in there that would prevent them from granting permission (such as WWIII starting) but in normal times it is granted 100% of the time hence the reason I was able to leave when I wanted within 3 months of handing in my notice.   So whilst "technically" they "could" but in reality they will not.

Edited December 7, 2022 by James105

[billd766]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Not according to this.

https://www.parliament.uk/globalassets/documents/joint-committees/human-rights/Briefing_from_Forces_Watch_Terms_of_service.pdf

But it dates from 2011.

 

You do have to get permission. And while in the ordinary course of things, the armed forces may grant permission, they certainly have the right to deny it.

When I did my 25 years in the RAF from 1960 to 1984 the same requirements were in force.

 

When you singed up, you signed to serve a certain term, eg, 9 years plus 3 in the reserve or whatever.

 

You did have the right to buy yourself out of your contract, however it depend on the manning numbers of your trade. If your trade was fully manned then it could be done, but if the trade was undermanned or critically under manned, the military had the right to retain you until your contract was up.

 

All of this was explained to you before you signed up and you agreed to it or you were not signed up.

 

The government and the military invested a lot of money and time in your training and wanted to get their moneys worth. The closer that you got to your discharge date, the lower the price to buy yourself out.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, James105 said:

Yes, there is a shortage of nurses, but qualified nurses take advantage of this by quitting the NHS and then starting as an agency nurse with the NHS paying up to £2,500 per shift (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/11/nhs-pays-2500-shift-agency-nurses/).   Which goes back to the age old problem with the NHS of not managing their enormous budget effectively.   The solution to this cannot be to blackmail the public by effectively letting them die by not providing healthcare as they have withdrawn their services so they can get a bit more money.  

Nurses are no more an essential service than firefighters, and I don't see you complaining about them striking.

It's not currently illegal for them to go on strike anyway, so they can.

They are not going to "let them die"- stop making stuff up. They will have a skeleton service to ensure that patients don't die, but routine tests and operations won't happen.

 

Unless things have changed since I left the NHS, agency nurses are not used in the NHS. That's why they recruited in Africa when I was in the NHS- they had to join the NHS as permanent staff. I used to be agency myself, and the idea that I could have earned £2,500 per shift is a very bad joke. That might be for some super specialised nurse, but not for most.

 

Nurses have been exploited and underpaid probably as long as nurses were paid, because they are mainly female- it's sad to see some people think that situation should continue. If the NHS paid them what they are worth they would not be going on strike.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, mikeymike100 said:

I got the sarcasm, hence the laughing emoji!????

I didn't get the emojis you used. I prefer this one as no confusion what it means

 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, James105 said:

Yes.  You can leave the military (in the UK) any time you like.   No they cannot refuse you, and I have no idea why you would think that would be the case.  Obviously it might be different in WWIII and people men get drafted to defend the country but not in normal times.  

Same in NZ. Could get out in 3 months or 12 months ( when I resigned ). No need to pay anything.

Better conditions if take 12 months option. In both cases put on the reserve so can be called back in the event of war.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

All of this was explained to you before you signed up and you agreed to it or you were not signed up.

 

The government and the military invested a lot of money and time in your training and wanted to get their moneys worth. The closer that you got to your discharge date, the lower the price to buy yourself out.

When I joined it was for a certain number of years, but that was changed to stay till retiring age or resign with 3 or 12 month option.

 

The taxpayer paid a great deal of money to train me to a high standard of my trade, so it's a pity they treated me like <deleted> very badly so I wanted to leave. I would have stayed in if they had valued me and treated me properly. I enjoyed the life style, but too much bullying from senior NCOs.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I'm sure if you had a heart attack and there were no nurses on the ward to treat you, you'd be far more concerned about the suppression of worker's rights than your own right to medical care that you had paid for via compulsory taxation.

Where do people get the idea that there will be no nurses at all? Presumably from those that want nurses to remain underpaid and exploited.

Emergency cover is provided to save those that have a heart attack in hospital.

[billd766]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

When I joined it was for a certain number of years, but that was changed to stay till retiring age or resign with 3 or 12 month option.

 

The taxpayer paid a great deal of money to train me to a high standard of my trade, so it's a pity they treated me like <deleted> very badly so I wanted to leave. I would have stayed in if they had valued me and treated me properly. I enjoyed the life style, but too much bullying from senior NCOs.

I never had much of a problem in the RAF with senior NCOs bullying except at Wildenrath, My chief there who shall remain nameless, used to go to lunch in the SNCO mess and drink his lunch as he was an alcoholic.

 

He would come back late as usual and start to pick on my mate Barry at which point he would then pick on me. I got so fed up with it that one afternoon I threatened to drop him and he went OTT.

 

I ignored him and went to the office and reported both him and me. My WO told me that if it happened again to ignore my C/T and go straight to the office.

 

2 weeks later I was posted to another section and my C/T was taken aside and given an informal warning.  3 months later he was posted back to the UK.

[thaibeachlovers]

33 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I never had much of a problem in the RAF with senior NCOs bullying except at Wildenrath, My chief there who shall remain nameless, used to go to lunch in the SNCO mess and drink his lunch as he was an alcoholic.

 

He would come back late as usual and start to pick on my mate Barry at which point he would then pick on me. I got so fed up with it that one afternoon I threatened to drop him and he went OTT.

 

I ignored him and went to the office and reported both him and me. My WO told me that if it happened again to ignore my C/T and go straight to the office.

 

2 weeks later I was posted to another section and my C/T was taken aside and given an informal warning.  3 months later he was posted back to the UK.

My last Sgt Major boss was bullying me, but rather than do something about that they posted me to a different base. He was a big part of why I resigned- that and the other lesser bullies.