If Wife Dies Before Me.

[ouredd]

Next Question,anybody dealt with reasonable lawyer in Pattaya to get this done

[Sheryl]

8 minutes ago, NoshowJones said:

She has sole legal ownership of the house, I'm just a bit worried about the influence her daughters friend may have on her.

Understood. And exactly the sort of thing that can cause conflict later. 

 

All the more reason to push for discussions (and usufruct or land lease -- note that a simple "letter" does not suffice) now.

 

Even these are not a sure protection against efforts to oust you later but your chances are a lot better if your wife has told her daughter -- in the presence of all concerned - what  her wishes are and taken  appropriate legal measures accordingly. 

[NorthernRyland]

31 minutes ago, NoshowJones said:

If something like that could happen it would not matter who's name the house was in.

 

I think that's debatable. Foreigners owning land is illegal so long term leases COULD be construed as ownership. Not saying this isn't a good idea and not to do it but I would expect the worst to be totally honest and plan around that.

[steven100]

34 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The pronlem is it can be hard to get Thais to have such talks/do such planning. Many think  it is bad luck.

bad luck or lack of interest as they see it as a threat to them all getting everything.    imo

[Sheryl]

9 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

I think that's debatable. Foreigners owning land is illegal so long term leases COULD be construed as ownership. Not saying this isn't a good idea and not to do it but I would expect the worst to be totally honest and plan around that.

Thai law is quite clear that a long term lease is not the same as land ownership.

 

Indeed, the land can be sold even while the lease is in effect and nothing the lessee can do to stop it (though they will continue to have the legal right to live there for rest of the lease duration.) 

 

Take those youtube videos with a grain of salt. They are a form of advertisement. 

 

[Sheryl]

6 minutes ago, steven100 said:

bad luck or lack of interest as they see it as a threat to them all getting everything.    imo

For the wife obviously not a threat in that sense since it pertains to after she has died. But most Thais do not find it easy or natural to discuss after death arrangements and many do believe it will in effect jinx them.

 

For the future heirs and their significant others  of course other motives come into play but not their decision if OP's wife -- their mother -- chooses to discuss things openly now. 

 

In fact it is in everyone's interests to minimize risk of conflict later. If one of them has hope of getting everything they may not be alone in that  aspiration. 

[NoshowJones]

20 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

I think that's debatable. Foreigners owning land is illegal so long term leases COULD be construed as ownership. Not saying this isn't a good idea and not to do it but I would expect the worst to be totally honest and plan around that.

I paid for the land, but obviously I don't own it, just like the house.

[blackcab]

Exactly what @Sheryl said earlier in the topic here:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1280474-if-wife-dies-before-me/?do=findComment&comment=17784000

 

[proton]

1 hour ago, PeachCH said:

My wife died and the court ordered that I have one year to sell the condo. (was registered in her name) 

My lawyer applied and finally I could keep the condo, despite the intervention of her family. 

Did she leave a will with you named in it?

[hotandsticky]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

You didn't mention who paid for the house, if you did, than you should have a lot more rights, if you didn't pay for the house than the siblings have most of the rights...

The rules of intestacy don't work like that 

[hotandsticky]

40 minutes ago, NoshowJones said:

I paid for the land, but obviously I don't own it, just like the house.

What do you (both) actually want to happen in the event of her death.

 

I can pretty much guarantee whatever that is, will not be achieved unless she makes Will.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Oh you mean the house is next their family? Oh yeah that's awkward! It is possible she dies first and on good terms so the family isn't trying to destroy you, hopefully...

My wife's family live in Bangkok, some 350 km away from us and we are on good terms with them.

 

The house and land are to go to our son (18 years old now) when she dies.

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

It's an interesting dilemma.

A WILL by the wife can be "lost" or changed without the other party's knowledge.

A USUFRUCT agreement is written in Thai Law (I had one myself before foreigners could own condos), and gives you the right to do what you like with the property (except sell it), for the duration of the agreement. Worked for me. But might leave you open to harassment (or worse) by others to get you out.

I presume a 30-year LEASE could have similar problems.

I would be interested to know what a LAWYER advises in this situation.

Always preferred condo ownership myself to avoid these problems. Title deed in my name and I decide what happens as clearly stated in my WILL. 

For those who are elderly and prefer a house, I think RENTING is better in many respects.

[bob smith]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

The pronlem is it can be hard to get Thais to have such talks/do such planning. Many think  it is bad luck. 

It was as easy as pie for me. I told my wife either you name me as the sole beneficiary of OUR property or I'm walking out the door.

 

She did it in a heartbeat.

 

In this country you have to be firm but fair. it's the only way to not get your fingers burned.

Edited December 13, 2022 by bob smith

[PeterA]

You need a Usufruct. Any good law office will know.  I have one. You wife must also sign it. 

If she dies before you, the house stays in your name until you die, then it goes to her next of kin. 

I did it about 3 years ago, cost around $250 then. 

It is also registered with the Thai government, so no surprises should occur.

 

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, PeterA said:

You need a Usufruct. Any good law office will know.  I have one. You wife must also sign it. 

If she dies before you, the house stays in your name until you die, then it goes to her next of kin. 

I did it about 3 years ago, cost around $250 then. 

It is also registered with the Thai government, so no surprises should occur.

 

It is actually possible to do yourself at the land office  without a lawyer (I have one) but as all the documents are in Thai good to have someone you trust involved who is bilingual snd knows the law.  Lawyer fee for this should not be too much as it is straightfoward. But of course wife has to fully agree.

 

And as I said before, highly advisable for her to tell the family what she is doing and why now, as if it comes as a surprise to them after she is gone reactions will be worse...and the less than savoury elements may have already developed expectations they will be loathe at that point to give up.

 

Psychologically, learning of your mother's apparent intent after she is gone is not as persuasive as having heard it from her face to face while alive. Daughter will be less amenable to any nefarious urgings from boyfriend if she heard it from Mom directly and Mom got  her to promise   to respect her wishes.

 

 

[Kalasin Jo]

6 hours ago, Sheryl said:

The pronlem is it can be hard to get Thais to have such talks/do such planning. Many think  it is bad luck. 

Indeed. Especially if uneducated and in the boonies. They just won't talk about such matters as death and what happens to the deceased's property. Far too superstitious beyond planning for a good funeral party and a life insurance payout, the latter usually all gone in a matter of weeks. Live for today!

[khunPer]

11 hours ago, NoshowJones said:

Can she decide who inherits the house, or does it automatically go to her daughter?

She can make a Last Will, if no Last Will the husband gets 50 percent and children shares 50 percent.

[soi3eddie]

Unfortunately Thais just don't make plans for the future and live for today. Refreshing in many ways IMO. If wife dies first then pay respects in memory, collect life assurance money and move on somewhere else and find a younger replacement. Harsh maybe but her family won't give a <deleted> about you unless you're supporting them. You don't know how much longer you have, so get on with it and enjoy.

 

 

[stoner]

if my wife dies before me........bliss. if you reading this...love you baby. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, stoner said:

if my wife dies before me........bliss. if you reading this...love you baby. 

me look u here , i sure u go first 

[scorecard]

14 hours ago, problemfarang said:

not 100% sure but,

 

both of you can go to a lawyer and she can sign a document saying she is the real owner and let you stay and live in the house until you die (you and she can put other conditions here). this is what we did with my ex-wife after we divorced. im pretty sure similar thing can apply in your question.

 

OR again with a lawyer she can make the owner of the house her brother UNTIL the daughter comes to age and also give permission to you staying and living in the house without any complications till the daughter comes to age. Then the house will pass to the daughter. Meanwhile the brother has no right to do anything to or with the house. only keep the house till she comes to the age. 

 

i would go with the second option. But let the lawyer understand that till the daughter comes to the age no one can do anything to the house. this will secure you. BUT keep in mind that this will limit things, maybe cannot sell the house and likewise things. 

 

PS: if you dont take any action, the brother will get the house (most likely)

 

good luck

 

 

A Usufruct might also be worth investigating. 

 

This is a document added to the land title deed by the actual owner (as indicated on the land title deed) whereby the owner indicates that the person named on the usufruct can live in the property until they die. And this can override who owns the property.

 

Example: My Thai son put a usefruct on the land title deed for his house, indicating:

- I can / must be allowed to live in the house until I die, regardless of whether my son dies before me and regardless of who he bequeathsd the land and house to (in this case in his will he has indicated that all of his kids get equal ownership of the property whenever he dies).

- The house and land cannot be sold, regardless of anything just above, without my signed appoval to sell.

- The only person who can cancel the usufruct is me. It does automatically cancel on my death.

 

Son's lawyer did her research then wrote the usufruct.

 

Land Titles snr. officer at Chiang Mai had no hesitation to attach the usufruct to the land title. 

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

She can make a Last Will, if no Last Will the husband gets 50 percent and children shares 50 percent.

Your wife can/should make a will and she has every right to bequeath any part of her worldy goods, including any property, to whoever she wishes. Totally her choice. And should be totally without any pressure from family. Past family history cannot dictate how she prepares her will/who she bequeathes things to. 

 

In preparing her will she should beware of any 'laws' which are not law.  E.g. I'm aware of a case of an officer at an Amphur office who is tasked with helping ciizens to write their will telling a young Thai man that by law he had to leave 100,000Baht in his will to his mother in law.

 

After some checking it was confirmed there is no such law. When confronted with the fact there's no such law the Amphur officer then fell back to a comment 'well it's not law but I think it's a nice idea'. Beware of things like this. 

 

But is she DOESN'T make a will (she dies intestate) then Thai law kicks in with a set formula of who gets what. This is all laid out very clearly/specifically in the Thai Commercial Code laws. 

 

If she does depart without making a will when the judge/court grants probate of the will the judge/court cannot change the formula as set out in the commercial code.

 

If the family members decide after the event to include a further person as a beneficiary they can, that's entirely up to them and this would be totally after probate has been granted by the court, and not included in the court granting probate. And not included in any probate documents issued by the court.

Edited December 13, 2022 by scorecard

[tandor]

Create an Usufruct between you/your wife and have it drafted and registered at the local Provincial Amphur Office. Your name will then appear on the Chanote enabling you to live there unrestricted for up to 30 years, or whatever period you nominate. It is more or less a fully paid up front rental contract.

[JimGant]

9 hours ago, khunPer said:

She can make a Last Will, if no Last Will the husband gets 50 percent and children shares 50 percent.

Some confusion on this. Here's another interpretation:

 

Quote

 If there is more than one heir in any one class, they take an equal share of the entitlement available to that class. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir but their entitlement depends on what other class of statutory heir exists. If there are surviving children of the deceased, the spouse and children take the estate between them. Therefore, if there are three children, then the estate is divided in to four equal shares.

https://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

Having a Will will negate any such confusion.

[hotandsticky]

1 hour ago, tandor said:

Create an Usufruct between you/your wife and have it drafted and registered at the local Provincial Amphur Office. Your name will then appear on the Chanote enabling you to live there unrestricted for up to 30 years, or whatever period you nominate. It is more or less a fully paid up front rental contract.

1. Registration is at the Land Office.

 

2. There is no time limitation, the usufruct remains on the chanote.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, tandor said:

Create an Usufruct between you/your wife and have it drafted and registered at the local Provincial Amphur Office.

Usufructs, like 30 year leases, are drafted at the land office and become part of the chanote. The amphur does not, and need not, get involved.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Some confusion on this. Here's another interpretation:

 

Having a Will will negate any such confusion.

Exactly, basically there's 2 situations:

 

- Wife (anybody) makes a legal will all correctly signed, who they bequeath things to is totally / absolutely the choice / the desires of the person making the will. End of story.

 

- Wife (anybody) DOESN'T MAKE A WILL BEFORE THEIR DEATH. By law this means the person has died 'intestate'. In this situation there's automatic compulsory law detailing who gets what. It's in the Thailand Commercial Code laws. Compulsory.

Edited December 14, 2022 by scorecard

[xtrnuno41]

Well many said, get a usufruct. However that is ONLY for the land. So you can use the land as long as you are alive.

However now you put the house in her name and it is hers and then inherents can come to claim it, after she dies.

You have a right as husband then? Did you buy pre or within mariage?

Also effects the rules.

You could have been the owner of the house, as I understood in Thailand you can own the house, but only the land would be on your wifes name, on which you can have a usufruct. You cant owe land.

As far as i know that one guarantees the use of land for you, all of your remaining life. Only the end of your life ends the usufruct.

 

As other leases are tops 30 years/contract. Those leases CAN be renewed for each again 30 years and only 2 times more.

So totally 90 years. No clue what happens after that

 

If you would have been the owner of the house, then you would have all rights on that. You would be entitled to break it down or relocate it(ok hard to do). Now you cant and son and daughter could claim it.

Maybe then in a will make it hard demand, you can live there in that house while you are still alive, besides the usufruct you have to get.

 

It is sad, but if someone dies, see how many vultures are flying around.

Thai arent foreseeing in those events, but should.

Tried to explain my wife and tada, so she agreed, but she got some resistance from her mum. As now it is still on mum's name with some additional markings. And mum said NO, it is ok. What can you do then, guess hope for the best.

 

You have to do a sit down with your wife and discus the situation and then execute the plans you both made for a good happy ending in case of.

[connda]

You need a usufract contract.  That will give you the legal 'use' of the land for your lifetime.  Your name will be placed on the Land Deed and filed at that land office.  You have a lien on the land regardless of who owns it.

As a family you all need to have this legally settled before it happens.

In my case.
1) I have a usufract contract plus the annotated land deeds
2) In my wife's will the land goes to her son.  All non-land assets on the property goes to me, i.e., I own the house (not the land), the guesthouse, the out-building, and everything in them and on them.

My wife, and step-son, and I have all discussed this.  There are no surprises.  All the necessary paperwork (usufract, will) are in my safe deposit box, and my son has been given copies.  I'll have my lawyer take this to probate with myself and step-son present.

Once I die, everything goes to my step-son. 

You need to sit down with your family, figure out who gets what, and then have a lawyer draw up the paperwork.  You may need to lawyer to get the Land Office to modify the Land Deeds.   Been there, done that.