Germany set to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, Der Spiegel reports

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Tropposurfer said:

I never said thousands were being sent. I said there were thousands around the NATO nations in total, and could be if needed and offered used (paraphrase).

Sorry, I mistook "The numbers of tanks possibly to follow from NATO nations is is the many hundreds of Leopards, with a mass total of many thousands of Leopards ready to roll." as meaning that thousands were ready to roll into Ukraine.

 

I could be wrong and all the nations with them are prepared to dispense with their own defense and send all they have to Ukraine, and spend billions re arming, but I doubt it.

 

I'm going with the number at 80, as in the link i posted before.

[BE88]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sorry, I mistook "The numbers of tanks possibly to follow from NATO nations is is the many hundreds of Leopards, with a mass total of many thousands of Leopards ready to roll." as meaning that thousands were ready to roll into Ukraine.

 

I could be wrong and all the nations with them are prepared to dispense with their own defense and send all they have to Ukraine, and spend billions re arming, but I doubt it.

 

I'm going with the number at 80, as in the link i posted before.

Yes, that's exactly the number indicated by the various governments that will send the tanks to Ukraine, apart from the fact of the matter, it will pilot them here and who will be the ones who will do the maintenance? Have the Ukrainians received such an expedited education in just a few days?

 

All this seems to me more like a declaration of official entry into the war by the various armament supplier countries.

A small number of tanks will not make much difference against what seems to be a much higher number of Russian tanks, which will logically have to be increased in order to win the Russians on the battlefield.

 

So this limited supply of tanks is more of a political effect on the Europe population to prepare for war.

 

And this is not good news.

 

[Saanim]

4 hours ago, tgw said:

You mean "Americans that are active members of the US military or US intelligence".

Because AFAIK, some American volunteers fighting for Ukraine have already been killed by Russia.

And some of them - alive - returned luckily to their homeland, not so clear how they did it. However, not so publicised as the one deflecting to Norway since not so excited experience of their fighting for Ukraine. I do not dare to place here a respectable link but one returning to Florida can be found by Boneface Kent McLellan.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, BE88 said:

A small number of tanks will not make much difference against what seems to be a much higher number of Russian tanks, which will logically have to be increased in order to win the Russians on the battlefield.

 

So this limited supply of tanks is more of a political effect on the Europe population to prepare for war.

 

And this is not good news.

I see it differently. They know that sending enough tanks to do the job would really enrage Russia, so by sending a token number IMO they hope it will satisfy those demanding tanks being sent, while not making Russia really get busy in Ukraine.

 

I'm pretty sure that the guys that really control the allied war contributions know that to go too far will end very badly for all of us.

[BE88]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I see it differently. They know that sending enough tanks to do the job would really enrage Russia, so by sending a token number IMO they hope it will satisfy those demanding tanks being sent, while not making Russia really get busy in Ukraine.

 

I'm pretty sure that the guys that really control the allied war contributions know that to go too far will end very badly for all of us.

 

 

If I could choose, I would definitely choose your most optimistic version, but if you see what German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock says about this video, I'm quite pessimistic.

 

[Saanim]

5 hours ago, tgw said:

your scenarios are very biaised

 

1/ Russia wins in Ukraine - yes, but: China feels encouraged to attack Taiwan, North Korea feels that it can attack the south, etc.  So it's more wars coming and more potentially nuclear confrontations.

 

2/ Russia loses and becomes chaos - maybe there will be a bit of chaos - or not too much. and anyway, just in Ruzzia. That's the best variant, as it would also free Belarus and Georgia and possibly some other territories that were widely autonomous with their own polls and duma, presidents, own currency and own tax systems before Putin coerced them into joining the Russian Federation without holding referendums.

 

3/ nuclear war ensues. I think it's still highly unlikely, as everything that Putin holds dear would disappear.

I have been asking for a link by a reputed politician or a war expert on the possible outcome.  Apart from the above comments to the 3 possible scenarios, I do not think that anybody would hope on the #3. 

 

Whether somebody believes the #2  - similarly to the outcome of Iraq? Have we read that somebody would predict that?  In contrary, there are many saying just the opposite, just recently Japan's ex-PM Yoshimo Mori expressed doubt  https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/01/3def4e19e4dc-japans-ex-pm-mori-casts-doubt-on-excessive-support-for-ukraine.html .

 

So if the world does not think that #1 is also not possible (and desired), so why to further support the war? Only to get a result in-between #1 and #2? That's a huge disaster not only for Russia but mainly for Ukraine. And moreover, also for Europe. 

 

So who is fully for this #1/2 outcome?

  

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, Saanim said:

I have been asking for a link by a reputed politician or a war expert on the possible outcome.  Apart from the above comments to the 3 possible scenarios, I do not think that anybody would hope on the #3. 

 

Whether somebody believes the #2  - similarly to the outcome of Iraq? Have we read that somebody would predict that?  In contrary, there are many saying just the opposite, just recently Japan's ex-PM Yoshimo Mori expressed doubt  https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/01/3def4e19e4dc-japans-ex-pm-mori-casts-doubt-on-excessive-support-for-ukraine.html .

 

So if the world does not think that #1 is also not possible (and desired), so why to further support the war? Only to get a result in-between #1 and #2? That's a huge disaster not only for Russia but mainly for Ukraine. And moreover, also for Europe. 

 

So who is fully for this #1/2 outcome?

  

From your link you are saying many people saying the opposite and use Japan's ex Prime Minister as an example, who served only 1 year in term back in 2000. "(Former Japanese Prime Minister Yoshiro Mori, known as a gaffe-prone veteran politician)"

 

Now back to reality from Japan

 

Japan takes extremely seriously the fact that a large number of civilians in Ukraine have been killed as a result of the acts of the Russian forces, and is deeply shocked by this revelation. The killing of innocent civilians is a grave breach of international humanitarian law and absolutely unacceptable. Japan vehemently condemns it.

The truth about these atrocities must be uncovered and Russia must be held strictly accountable. Japan has referred the Situation in Ukraine to the International Criminal Court (ICC) on the grounds that war crimes appear to have been committed, and counts on progress in the investigation by the ICC Prosecutor.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/press/release/press6e_000375.html

 

For some of its continued assistance to Ukraine

https://japan.kantei.go.jp/ongoingtopics/pdf/jp_stands_with_ukraine_eng.pdf

[Kwasaki]

21 minutes ago, Saanim said:

I have been asking for a link by a reputed politician or a war expert on the possible outcome.  Apart from the above comments to the 3 possible scenarios, I do not think that anybody would hope on the #3. 

 

Whether somebody believes the #2  - similarly to the outcome of Iraq? Have we read that somebody would predict that?  In contrary, there are many saying just the opposite, just recently Japan's ex-PM Yoshimo Mori expressed doubt  https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/01/3def4e19e4dc-japans-ex-pm-mori-casts-doubt-on-excessive-support-for-ukraine.html .

 

So if the world does not think that #1 is also not possible (and desired), so why to further support the war? Only to get a result in-between #1 and #2? That's a huge disaster not only for Russia but mainly for Ukraine. And moreover, also for Europe. 

 

So who is fully for this #1/2 outcome?

  

Nobody knows yet about #1, just a lot of guessing.

Long way to go yet I reckon. 

 

#2 a possibility of which a great number of countries and people would hope for. 

 

# 3 As for nuclear war no-one wants that but blaming mordern weapons sent by the west hitting a nuclear reactor and saying Ukraine did it is possible.

[tgw]

43 minutes ago, Saanim said:

I have been asking for a link by a reputed politician or a war expert on the possible outcome.  Apart from the above comments to the 3 possible scenarios, I do not think that anybody would hope on the #3. 

 

Whether somebody believes the #2  - similarly to the outcome of Iraq? Have we read that somebody would predict that?  In contrary, there are many saying just the opposite, just recently Japan's ex-PM Yoshimo Mori expressed doubt  https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/01/3def4e19e4dc-japans-ex-pm-mori-casts-doubt-on-excessive-support-for-ukraine.html .

 

So if the world does not think that #1 is also not possible (and desired), so why to further support the war? Only to get a result in-between #1 and #2? That's a huge disaster not only for Russia but mainly for Ukraine. And moreover, also for Europe. 

 

So who is fully for this #1/2 outcome?

  

Scenario #1 must not happen, it threatens global security.

 

And scenario #2 is not similar to Iraq. It just leaves a beaten Russia where most people are unhappy with their leaders, so it would probably mean a regime change in Russia, but one initiated by its own people. Nobody is going to invade Ruzzia. And I don't think it would be a disaster for Ruzzia.

 

As for Ukraine, what could be more disastrous than what it already has to endure ?

 

Russians need to lose the war and be pushed out of Ukrainian territory, and that's where it will end, because at that moment, Ukraine will get security guarantees.

[Saanim]

46 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

 

If I could choose, I would definitely choose your most optimistic version, but if you see what German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock says about this video, I'm quite pessimistic.

 

The lady from the Green Party (since when the Greeners are warmongers?) did dare to say what her Chancellor has been hesitating for a while (she had wanted so much his job) - why are the women so keen for a war? Didn't we see it recently in UK? 

 

After all, what have the Russians done to the Germans? Apart from enjoying the cheap gas for decades?   

 

Not everybody is happy with the declaration: an MP from AfD (Alternative for Germany), the party many insinuate being right-wing, nationalist:

"German tanks against Russia in Ukraine. Your grandfathers already tried that, by the way, back then with the Melnyks and Banderas, and what is the result?" 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, Saanim said:

The lady from the Green Party (since when the Greeners are warmongers?) did dare to say what her Chancellor has been hesitating for a while (she had wanted so much his job) - why are the women so keen for a war? Didn't we see it recently in UK? 

 

After all, what have the Russians done to the Germans? Apart from enjoying the cheap gas for decades?   

 

Not everybody is happy with the declaration: an MP from AfD (Alternative for Germany), the party many insinuate being right-wing, nationalist:

"German tanks against Russia in Ukraine. Your grandfathers already tried that, by the way, back then with the Melnyks and Banderas, and what is the result?" 

 

 

Did you expect anything else from one of Germany's extreme far right politicians? In a party that since its foundation, it was no secret to German political observers that the party was almost openly funded by the Kremlin.

https://insightnews.media/german-right-wing-mp-tries-to-undermine-the-tanks-supply-to-ukraine/

 

I'm surprised he's not back in South Africa on a shooting exercise with the paramilitary “Suidlanders” group during an official parliamentary trip.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/12/31/germ-d31.html

 

 

[heybruce]

20 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Did you expect anything else from one of Germany's extreme far right politicians? In a party that since its foundation, it was no secret to German political observers that the party was almost openly funded by the Kremlin.

https://insightnews.media/german-right-wing-mp-tries-to-undermine-the-tanks-supply-to-ukraine/

 

I'm surprised he's not back in South Africa on a shooting exercise with the paramilitary “Suidlanders” group during an official parliamentary trip.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/12/31/germ-d31.html

 

 

It's scary that that guy is actually in Germany's government.

 

Full disclosure:  I'm American, and I know our situation is in many ways worse.

[jvs]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Been a few experts on Al Jazeera discussing just that. The estimates varied from 3 weeks to 4 months.

 

What most people don't understand is the amount of maintenance a tank requires, and that depends on spares and trained people to do the maintenance.

Also, things like the amount of fuel tanks use which is a LOT. Tanks without a big maintenance/ supply train are just stationary artillery, and even that requires weapon maintenance, and ammunition resupply.

 

From some of the comments I've seen, some posters have no idea of the logistics involved to put a tank on the front line.

Well just to inform you,tanks made in Europe do not need to be maintained or repaired by Ukrainian soldiers.Pull them across a border

and that will be taken care off.

I will bet my next paycheck that Ukrainian soldiers are already being trained in the use of these tanks.

I am sure smart army people have already fore seen this months ago.

Logistics has so far not been a problem for the Ukraine.

[jvs]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the Russians captured any Americans "aiding" the Ukrainians in the war zone IMO they have every right to assume the US is actually involved on the ground.

By only sending weapons the west can maintain that they are not combatants.

They already have and yes there are more soldiers from the US and many other countries fighting in the Ukraine for the Ukraine.

Not as soldiers from their country but as volunteers.

[jvs]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

The lady from the Green Party (since when the Greeners are warmongers?) did dare to say what her Chancellor has been hesitating for a while (she had wanted so much his job) - why are the women so keen for a war? Didn't we see it recently in UK? 

 

After all, what have the Russians done to the Germans? Apart from enjoying the cheap gas for decades?   

 

Not everybody is happy with the declaration: an MP from AfD (Alternative for Germany), the party many insinuate being right-wing, nationalist:

"German tanks against Russia in Ukraine. Your grandfathers already tried that, by the way, back then with the Melnyks and Banderas, and what is the result?" 

 

 

Really?

Sure that happened but the circumstances and the times have changed.

No one it going to try to invade Russia,all they want is for them to go back to the borders before 2014.

[jvs]

Best and fastest way to stop this war?

Europe and the US should send all they have Now!

Sending just enough to help the Ukraine stop an all out invasion will only cost a lot more lives and reduce the cities and infra structure to ashes.

Yes, more tanks and more ammo,The Ukrainians are fighting our fight

and do you think it is expensive for us?We are not paying with our lives.

Per capita it is just a very small amount of money.

Let us hope for more help from within Russia,the younger generation is

very much against this war,the older generations are too brainwashed

to be able to see what is going on.

History has shown us time and time again that appeasing a bully will not stop him.

Happy tanksgiving!

 

[BarraMarra]

Nato cannot put boots on the ground in Ukraine unless a Nato Country is attacked.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, jvs said:

Well just to inform you,tanks made in Europe do not need to be maintained or repaired by Ukrainian soldiers.Pull them across a border

and that will be taken care off.

I will bet my next paycheck that Ukrainian soldiers are already being trained in the use of these tanks.

I am sure smart army people have already fore seen this months ago.

Logistics has so far not been a problem for the Ukraine.

 They should only get one tank, the Leopard is the obvious choice.

To have Chalis, Leopards, French tanks, Abram tanks and with the Russian tanks they have in the field already the logistics is going to be an absolute nightmare. 

Just saying. 

[Saanim]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Did you expect anything else from one of Germany's extreme far right politicians? In a party that since its foundation, it was no secret to German political observers that the party was almost openly funded by the Kremlin.

https://insightnews.media/german-right-wing-mp-tries-to-undermine-the-tanks-supply-to-ukraine/

 

I'm surprised he's not back in South Africa on a shooting exercise with the paramilitary “Suidlanders” group during an official parliamentary trip.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/12/31/germ-d31.html

 

 

Some are very easy with insinuations (as per above link):

"Since its foundation, it was no secret to German political observers that the party was almost openly funded by the Kremlin.,"

 

Whether they can provide any evidence? 

 

BTW, the co-leader of the Party Alice Weidel is higher on the poll approval (end of 2022) than the Green war mongerin.. And even higher than the Chancellor in the East states (former GDR).   

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Saanim said:

Some are very easy with insinuations (as per above link):

"Since its foundation, it was no secret to German political observers that the party was almost openly funded by the Kremlin.,"

 

Whether they can provide any evidence? 

 

BTW, the co-leader of the Party Alice Weidel is higher on the poll approval (end of 2022) than the Green war mongerin.. And even higher than the Chancellor in the East states (former GDR).   

Can you provide evidence its not true? Next time you provide a video link check your source

 

Documents Link AfD Parliamentarian To Moscow

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/documents-link-afd-parliamentarian-to-moscow-a-1261509.html

 

A German politician could become an "absolutely controlled" MP in the Bundestag, according to Russian documents seen by BBC Newsnight.

The politician, Markus Frohnmaier, is a member of the German parliament from the far-right AfD party

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47822835

 

How Russian Voters Fueled the Rise of Germany's Far-Right

https://time.com/4955503/germany-elections-2017-far-right-russia-angela-merkel/

 

How Russians have helped fuel the rise of Germany’s far right

Mr. K. is not alone. Since 2015, the AfD has been actively courting Germany’s Russian community, even setting up a network within the party to specifically address their concerns. The strategy has borne fruit, especially in the state of Baden-Württemberg, where the AfD garnered 42 per cent of the vote in Villingen-Schwenningen, and 52 per cent in Wertheim, both cities that are home to large populations of Russian-Germans.

https://theconversation.com/how-russians-have-helped-fuel-the-rise-of-germanys-far-right-105551

 

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Some are very easy with insinuations (as per above link):

"Since its foundation, it was no secret to German political observers that the party was almost openly funded by the Kremlin.,"

 

Whether they can provide any evidence? 

 

BTW, the co-leader of the Party Alice Weidel is higher on the poll approval (end of 2022) than the Green war mongerin.. And even higher than the Chancellor in the East states (former GDR).   

I just looked at polling for the next federal election, and the green party consistently runs ahead of the AFD.

And it's not surprising that she Weidel does best in the east. After all, that's where neo-Nazis are the strongest.

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Can you provide evidence its not true? Next time you provide a video link check your source

 

Documents Link AfD Parliamentarian To Moscow

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/documents-link-afd-parliamentarian-to-moscow-a-1261509.html

 

A German politician could become an "absolutely controlled" MP in the Bundestag, according to Russian documents seen by BBC Newsnight.

The politician, Markus Frohnmaier, is a member of the German parliament from the far-right AfD party

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47822835

 

How Russian Voters Fueled the Rise of Germany's Far-Right

https://time.com/4955503/germany-elections-2017-far-right-russia-angela-merkel/

 

How Russians have helped fuel the rise of Germany’s far right

Mr. K. is not alone. Since 2015, the AfD has been actively courting Germany’s Russian community, even setting up a network within the party to specifically address their concerns. The strategy has borne fruit, especially in the state of Baden-Württemberg, where the AfD garnered 42 per cent of the vote in Villingen-Schwenningen, and 52 per cent in Wertheim, both cities that are home to large populations of Russian-Germans.

https://theconversation.com/how-russians-have-helped-fuel-the-rise-of-germanys-far-right-105551

 

This you call the evidence? It's a usual cheap shot to place insinuations when no plausible arguments against truth. Do we see similar technique from the other side?  But we do not have the same meter for everybody, do we? 

 

Why the Germans should fight against Russians? Actually, they could make use of the occasion and of the strong support from the West, to try what they did not achieved during WW2.  However, most of them are pretty aware of the mischief in the past, killing 20M of Russians, among others. That's why the old man Helmut Schmidt - the last decent German Chancellor - said when asked on the EU crisis: EU does not have a strong leader and Germany cannot be it because of their past of the industrial killing. 

 

So, the decent population is rather reluctant to follow the politicians, they haven't been asked.  Why they should fight for Ukraine? They have known a lot about them. And even without the fighting they have been suffering a lot at home.   

[Bkk Brian]

17 minutes ago, Saanim said:

This you call the evidence? It's a usual cheap shot to place insinuations when no plausible arguments against truth. Do we see similar technique from the other side?  But we do not have the same meter for everybody, do we? 

 

Why the Germans should fight against Russians? Actually, they could make use of the occasion and of the strong support from the West, to try what they did not achieved during WW2.  However, most of them are pretty aware of the mischief in the past, killing 20M of Russians, among others. That's why the old man Helmut Schmidt - the last decent German Chancellor - said when asked on the EU crisis: EU does not have a strong leader and Germany cannot be it because of their past of the industrial killing. 

 

So, the decent population is rather reluctant to follow the politicians, they haven't been asked.  Why they should fight for Ukraine? They have known a lot about them. And even without the fighting they have been suffering a lot at home.   

I take that as a no then. You cant provide evidence to discredit it. 

 

You seem to think I'm trying to convince you. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

 

Time for you to go and spend more time looking for AfD videos. Enjoy the propoganda......you deserve each other.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Saanim]

23 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I take that as a no then. You cant provide evidence to discredit it. 

 

You seem to think I'm trying to convince you. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

 

Time for you to go and spend more time looking for AfD videos. Enjoy the propoganda......you deserve each other.

What a discussion with you.  How the Germans are deciding about themselves? Even the "strongman" Scholz  had been reluctant so long about the 11 tanks...

[ballpoint]

These tank announcements have certainly stirred up the Russian apologists.  And all of their posts are either full of mock concern for how the tanks will be maintained and operated; bigoted attacks on Germany for its past; or trying to claim that they will be so effective (reading between the lines) that they will infuriate Putin,  leading to WWIII.  They must be really afraid of them.  Bring them on.

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Nato cannot put boots on the ground in Ukraine unless a Nato Country is attacked.

True but if Russia does that, then NATO can then legitimately target Russia itself. 

[ozimoron]

wrong thread

Edited January 26, 2023 by ozimoron

[Venom]

15 hours ago, kwonitoy said:

Ok question.

In nuclear warfare or armageddon as you put it, it takes 2 to tango.

Russia launches a nuke......where? what's the target? In Ukraine I would assume, and also assuming they are functional 

So who retaliates with a second nuclear launch? or counterlaunch,  Ukraine doesn't have any

The US isn't going to launch neither would the UK or France

China has stated to Russia to not even think about it.

So where is the world shattering end of humanity coming from?

 

Their has been over 2000 nuclear tests preformed by numerous countries since WW2, 528 in the atmosphere

 https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

 

We're still here

Oh, that's wonderful news. Then the there's this...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/doomsday-clock-at-record-90-seconds-to-midnight-amid-ukraine-crisis

[Tug]

On 1/25/2023 at 3:10 AM, Bkk Brian said:

Germany is sending its first batch of Leopards from its military stock, they are not in storage and they are ready to go. Just training now which according to the  International Institute for Strategic Studies estimates that three to six weeks of training would be needed for operating crews and support staff to reach basic proficiency.

 

Ralf Raths, director of the Panzer Museum in Munster, Germany, said experienced Ukrainian tank crews would likely be able to learn to use the Leopard 2 fairly quickly, and training could be shortened to focus on essential knowledge.

 

 

 

Here’s a thought there’s plenty of retired army guys who know the ins and outs of the leopard 2 and the abrams tanks use contractors for the maintenance side in the near term as the Ukrainians are learning the maintenance end.God now the Ukrainians have plenty of experience in the use of tanks ergo in the short term only the operation of the systems would be nessary that would shorten the time to deploy greatly 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

wrong thread

Yes its getting confusing, one thread on Z and Ukraine to discuss everything as it developes would be enough.