5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Jews who fled the Middle East to Israel still own property there worth something like 400 Billion U.S Dollars and why do you think that Jews voluntarily left those Countries?

   Its because they faced a certain degree of persecution or discrimination  there 

Ok but as I said, It's not an excuse.

Just now, candide said:

Ok but as I said, It's not an excuse.

The Palestinians were offered a Country back in 1948 (as were the Israelis) , the Palestinians rejected the offer and Israel accepted the offer .

   That is why there is no Palestine now , because they rejected statehood

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The Palestinians were offered a Country back in 1948 (as were the Israelis) , the Palestinians rejected the offer and Israel accepted the offer .

   That is why there is no Palestine now , because they rejected statehood

Changing target now.

There is no internation law or principle which says that people fleeing or being expelled from combat zone have no right to come back.

3 minutes ago, candide said:

Changing target now.

There is no internation law or principle which says that people fleeing or being expelled from combat zone have no right to come back.

Anyway, about the seven Israelis killed by terrorists in a Synagogue, which is what this story is about 

Posts making unsubstantiated claims have been removed. 

 

1 hour ago, candide said:

It's bad but it's not an excuse.

(Not sure they are not allowed to go back to all ME countries, BTW. A significant part of the Jewish exodus has been voluntary) .

You are joking I assume. The Jewish exodus was preceded by violence, rioting, and thuggery. There are literally no Jews left in any Arab/Muslim country. A grand total of 17 in Syria, for example, perhaps 40 in Lebanon, 50 in Yemen, perhaps the same in Egypt.

 

As for the Palestinians who left in the 1948 invasion, it is true that some were coerced/threatened/ expelled. A lot however were told to leave by fellow Arab leaders to clear the way for a victorious Arab League conquest. After which they could all go back and claim the booty of victory- namely the property and land of the soon-to-be murdered Jews.

 

The biggest difference is how the exiled were treated. Jews who migrated to Israel were welcomed and made citizens. Palestinians who migrated to most Arab lands were treated like dogs.  Palestinians are not allowed to naturalize and become citizens in countries like Egypt or Syria or Saudi Arabia, they are kept in a perpetual state of rootlessness and grievance. 

10 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Not forgetting that Jews had continuously been living on the land for 3000 years , Jerusalem's Temple of David was built 3000 years ago

That is the problem ,they still think because they were they 3000 years they are still entitled to it now ,things have changed and moved on .

Are you going to give the Uk back to Italy,becouce the Romans were in the UK 2000 years ago , and Italians have been living in the UK for a lot of years, same difference.

Jerusalem shooting: Thirteen-year-old held over second attack in days

A 13-year-old Palestinian boy was behind a shooting in Jerusalem on Saturday, Israeli police have said.

Two people - a father and son - were seriously wounded, while the attacker was shot and injured by passers by and is being held in hospital.

It came after seven people were killed, and at least three more injured, in a shooting on Friday at a synagogue in East Jerusalem.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64438905

1 minute ago, kickstart said:

That is the problem ,they still think because they were they 3000 years they are still entitled to it now ,things have changed and moved on .

Are you going to give the Uk back to Italy,becouce the Romans were in the UK 2000 years ago , and Italians have been living in the UK for a lot of years, same difference.

I was just replying to the claims that the land is ancestral Palestinian land so belongs to them , I was just pointing out that Jews have lived on the land for over 3000 years and long before Palestinians came along and claimed it for themselves  .

49 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

You are joking I assume. The Jewish exodus was preceded by violence, rioting, and thuggery. There are literally no Jews left in any Arab/Muslim country. A grand total of 17 in Syria, for example, perhaps 40 in Lebanon, 50 in Yemen, perhaps the same in Egypt.

 

As for the Palestinians who left in the 1948 invasion, it is true that some were coerced/threatened/ expelled. A lot however were told to leave by fellow Arab leaders to clear the way for a victorious Arab League conquest. After which they could all go back and claim the booty of victory- namely the property and land of the soon-to-be murdered Jews.

 

The biggest difference is how the exiled were treated. Jews who migrated to Israel were welcomed and made citizens. Palestinians who migrated to most Arab lands were treated like dogs.  Palestinians are not allowed to naturalize and become citizens in countries like Egypt or Syria or Saudi Arabia, they are kept in a perpetual state of rootlessness and grievance. 

10,000 in Iran, but never mind. Yet there is no international law or principle stating that people who have fled or were expelled from war zone, whatever the reason, should not be allowed back.

And one bad does not justify another bad.

9 minutes ago, candide said:

10,000 in Iran, but never mind. Yet there is no international law or principle stating that people who have fled or were expelled from war zone, whatever the reason, should not be allowed back.

And one bad does not justify another bad.

Well there are about 350 000 Persian/Iranian Jews in the world and 8500 live in Iran , 250 000 Iranian Jews live in Israel and 80 000 live in the USA . 

   Iranian Jews left Iran because they are discriminated against there .

   Palestinians   side with Iran and want an Islamic state in Israel under Sharia law , 

21 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well there are about 350 000 Persian/Iranian Jews in the world and 8500 live in Iran , 250 000 Iranian Jews live in Israel and 80 000 live in the USA . 

   Iranian Jews left Iran because they are discriminated against there .

   Palestinians   side with Iran and want an Islamic state in Israel under Sharia law , 

I don't deny it and it was just a peripheral comment.

My point in response to Hanaguma's statement that Palestinian are more happy in Israel is that It's true but:

- those who are outside are not allowed back,

- the current territory under the Palestinian administration is not sustainable from an economic perspective, because it is too fragmented and because the most wealthy parts (ex the Jordan valley) are controlled by Israel. Difficult to be happy under such circumstances.

 

I will not get drawn by you into any other issue you may come up with.

28 minutes ago, candide said:

I don't deny it and it was just a peripheral comment.

My point in response to Hanaguma's statement that Palestinian are more happy in Israel is that It's true but:

- those who are outside are not allowed back,

- the current territory under the Palestinian administration is not sustainable from an economic perspective, because it is too fragmented and because the most wealthy parts (ex the Jordan valley) are controlled by Israel. Difficult to be happy under such circumstances.

 

I will not get drawn by you into any other issue you may come up with.

Israel has the right to allow who it wants to live in the Country and allowing millions of people in to live there , millions who have the opinion that Israel has no right to exist  and they want an Sharia Islamic state in place of Israel are unwelcome in the Country , for obvious reasons 

6 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I was just replying to the claims that the land is ancestral Palestinian land so belongs to them , I was just pointing out that Jews have lived on the land for over 3000 years and long before Palestinians came along and claimed it for themselves  .

Try and get your claim correct. Less than 2,000 years.

 

The earliest Jews in Judea was about 1200 BC, and basically all gone after Muslim conquest in 7th century,

So less than 2,000 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

 

 

18 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

When I hear people fighting about "ancestral lands" it makes me yawn.  Same everywhere. Native people want their "ancestal lands" back, Russia wants their "ancestral lands" in Ukraine, China wants their "ancestral lands" in Taiwan, all the same.  Back in 1948 the Arab League tried to get back the "ancestral lands" by killing all the Jews that lived there. They failed. Now they need to learn to accept the consequences. 

You need to tell that to Mac Mickmanus that claims occupation 3,000 years ago gives it a "right" to the land today.

6 hours ago, kickstart said:

That is the problem ,they still think because they were they 3000 years they are still entitled to it now ,things have changed and moved on .

Are you going to give the Uk back to Italy,becouce the Romans were in the UK 2000 years ago , and Italians have been living in the UK for a lot of years, same difference.

Correct. On that basis the north American continent belongs to the Native Americans that lived there for at least 20,000 years, which is way longer than 2,000.

Somehow, I don't think they are going to get it back though.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/10/a-brief-history-of-everyone-who-ever-lived/537942/

The latest radio-dating analysis of the remnants of lives in the Bluefish Caves indicates that people were there 24,000 years ago. These founding peoples spread over 12,000 years to every corner of the continents and formed the pool from which all Americans would be drawn until 1492.

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Anyway, about the seven Israelis killed by terrorists in a Synagogue, which is what this story is about 

The reasons they were killed is surely relevant, which includes the occupation, and the illegal settlements?

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The Palestinians were offered a Country back in 1948 (as were the Israelis) , the Palestinians rejected the offer and Israel accepted the offer .

   That is why there is no Palestine now , because they rejected statehood

What are you on about? The Palestinians had a country and had been living on it for centuries, till the UN took it away from them. No wonder they rejected the offer of being able to live on a smaller area. Jordan ruled the area till the UN took the land, and they were not happy about it either.

 

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I will ask you the same question In relation to this story , do you think that its OK to target innocent people ?

   

I don't think war or terrorism are OK, but I also think if the UN takes land that Palestinians have lived on for centuries and gives it to someone else, and that someone else deprives Palestinians the right to live on the land the UN left for them to live on, there are going to be consequences for the people occupying the land illegally. Many countries say the Israelis are illegally occupying the west bank and East Jerusalem, but because the US vetoes every resolution against them in the UN they get away with it.

At a time when the western world is aiding a certain country to resist an invader, seems "strange" to me that the western world is ignoring the same thing been going on somewhere else since 1967.

If another country invaded your country, would you meekly accept it. If they humiliated you daily, would you accept it, if they took away your hope for a life in freedom, would you accept it, or would you fight against the invader?

8 hours ago, tj916 said:

Bomber Harris used that quote as well, and look how that worked out!

I should be careful what you wish for.

My wish is for the Palestinians to live free in  their own country. Why should I be careful about that?

27 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What are you on about? The Palestinians had a country and had been living on it for centuries, till the UN took it away from them. No wonder they rejected the offer of being able to live on a smaller area. Jordan ruled the area till the UN took the land, and they were not happy about it either.

 

You are wrong about that .

There has NEVR been a Country called Palestine and Palestinian Nationalism only became a thing recently .

If you disagree, then name a Palestine leader or King who was head of Palestine . Before Jordan took over the West Bank, it was part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire for 400 years 

   Many current Palestinians are former Jews who left Judaism either by choice for forcibly , many converted to Christianity or Islam .

14 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You are wrong about that .

There has NEVR been a Country called Palestine and Palestinian Nationalism only became a thing recently .

If you disagree, then name a Palestine leader or King who was head of Palestine . Before Jordan took over the West Bank, it was part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire for 400 years 

   Many current Palestinians are former Jews who left Judaism either by choice for forcibly , many converted to Christianity or Islam .

Tell that to the Romans.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Roman-Palestine

The province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina (later simply called Palaestina)

 

Tell that to the League of Nations

https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Palestine

League of Nations mandate of Palestine under British rule.

 

 

An off topic deflection post and a reply has been removed. 

22 hours ago, JCauto said:

I got zero time for America or Americans. A nation fillled with fascists with guns who routinely oppress black, brown and Jewish people and have turned into the facsists they loathed.
I'm NOT an anti-American, but I am a pro-humanitarian.
Remember the journalist Gary Webb who they shot (state sanctioned murder) a while back then lied through their teeth about it ?! 
Ya spend about 400 years enslaving, disenfranchising and disempowering a group to the point where they have no space, no peace, no rights, no place in their own lands that they were forcibly relocated to, and cry foul that they are bad people and criminals when they literally go mad from the abuse and react to your abuse by fighting back. The USA has systematically terrorised systematically carried out a Pogrom of genocide against the Black people (we saw today the horrible beating to death of the guy in Memphis) and have been aided and abetted by lots of Western White Supremacists in doing so.

You are an anti-Semite singling out Israel and applying a uniform label on Israelis simply for being citizens of a country whose government you dislike. You talk about Israel, yet have nothing to say about the dozens of countries with far worse laws, human rights records, killings of journalists and repression of their population or minorities.
 

He said nothing about Jews or Judaism. How do you get to anti-Semite from criticising Israel? Your only defense of Israel is whataboutism? Pathetic.

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Tell that to the Romans.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Roman-Palestine

The province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina (later simply called Palaestina)

 

Tell that to the League of Nations

https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Palestine

League of Nations mandate of Palestine under British rule.

 

 

Yes, a "province" of the Roman empire.  

 

In any case, this argument can be used by anyone to justify anything. All land was at one time occupied by someone who got kicked out by someone else, who then got kicked out.....  

 

The situation today was created by the Arab League invading Israel in 1948. They refused to abide by the partition of land into Jewish and Arab sections and basically got greedy.  Much easier to just kill all the Jews and take ALL the land, they thought.  Didn't work out too well and now we are dealing with the aftermath.

 

Ask yourself, why are Palestinians so mistreated by their fellow Arab/Muslim brothers?  Why do 2 MILLION Palestinians live in Israel with full citizenship, and virtually no Jews can do the same in the surrounding Arab/Muslim countries?  I am not fully on board with everything Israel does, but I understand the roots of their paranoia. 

The situation today was created by the creation of the state of Israel in 1948.

27 minutes ago, stevenl said:

The situation today was created by the creation of the state of Israel in 1948.

Jews were being attacked in Jerusalem before 1948 and before Israel became into being 

24 minutes ago, stevenl said:

The situation today was created by the creation of the state of Israel in 1948.

...you forgot the most important bit...

 

...by the United Nations, and the subsequent invasion of Israel by the Arab League in an attempt to exterminate the Jewish population of the area. 

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Tell that to the Romans.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Roman-Palestine

The province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina (later simply called Palaestina)

 

Tell that to the League of Nations

https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Palestine

League of Nations mandate of Palestine under British rule.

 

 

The Romans changed the name from Judea to Palestina to erase Jewish presence in the land . 1000 villages got destroyed and more than 500 000 people were killed and Jews were nearly erased from the land , this was a time became Islam became a Religion 

   Palestina was ruled by Romans who attempted to erase Jews from the land and it was a few hundred years later that Arabs invaded the land 

38 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

...you forgot the most important bit...

 

...by the United Nations, and the subsequent invasion of Israel by the Arab League in an attempt to exterminate the Jewish population of the area. 

It wasn't anybody's, including the UN, to give away.