Query about unsatisfactory toilet situation.

[Toolong]

My wife & I bought a house a while back. The general quality of the house was good, but early on some issues with each of the three toilets became clear.

One toilet in particular has had an ongoing problem that is now bugging me too much and I need it sorted out. The issue is this: the back of the toilet, on the base fitted to the floor, is open, presumably to allow access to screw it down to the floor (though it's so close to the wall - about 10 cms- that the plumber must have had tiny arms!).

Anyway.....the problem has been insects gaining access to the bathroom via that opening, somehow. Mosquitoes & what I call little 'sh**flies'. How they gain access to the pipework in the first place baffles me, and all covers & breather pipes outside are sealed or are covered by gauze mesh.

But they can only be getting past the main big round rubber seal where the toilet meets the floor, so I want to a) change the seal, or b) change the whole toilet to one that has bolt fittings on the outside and is not open at the back.

 

Now my query is about that main rubber seal. Some time ago, a Thai friend of the family, with only vague connections to the construction business, complicated matters by claiming that this particular toilet (no, it's not ancient, it's a very modern type) would have a type of seal that is no longer available. So that put things on pause.

 

But can he be right? Surely these seals are standard, no? Or at least the size of the hole & pipe to which the toilet connects? Am I right?

 

Can anyone clarify this for me? 

 

Thanks. 

[CharlieH]

MOVED to Real Estate

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Perhaps you have drain flies:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychodidae

 

They don't come from outside. They reproduce in the muck in the traps in the drains.

[JAS21]

What is the make of toilet …. Photo?

 

They are not too hard to take out … there should not be any opening between the bathroom itself and the soil pipe

[Toolong]

18 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Perhaps you have drain flies:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychodidae

 

They don't come from outside. They reproduce in the muck in the traps in the drains.

Interesting, Etaoin! Thanks for that link.

 

Now I know. (Knowledge is power! ????)

 

I appreciate it. ????????

[Toolong]

8 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

What is the make of toilet …. Photo?

 

They are not too hard to take out … there should not be any opening between the bathroom itself and the soil pipe

'Cotto'. 

 

The toilet itself works fine. And the opening at the back is definitely part of the design. Walking through 'Home-Pro' yesterday and noticed that many, if not most, of the toilets on sale were open at the back.

 

To me, it seems that the open back style is going to be prone to allowing problems like drain flies + (in my case) mosquitoes.

 

With the closed type, that problem cannot arise, surely! That's my opinion, anyway.

 

Cheers! ????????

[Toolong]

17 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

What is the make of toilet …. Photo?

 

They are not too hard to take out … there should not be any opening between the bathroom itself and the soil pipe

Sorry, wife is busy in bathroom right now. Can't provide photo! ????

[JAS21]

We have cotto … you can buy the proper cotto kit. We had a smell and I took out the toilet and found that they hadn’t used the sealing ring.

 

The fact that the toilet is open at the back is no problem UNLESS the sealing ring hasn’t been fitted or fitted correctly

 

Some Thai plumbers believe that ring is not needed and throw it away..that then means that they rely on the white cement or whatever to provide the seal between pipe and toilet.

 

I’ll’ find you a picture of the kit you need later. 

[lopburi3]

2 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

Some Thai plumbers believe that ring is not needed and throw it away

I would say almost all do so.  Bathrooms have concrete floors here and toilets are cemented to them rather than using bolts in floor compressing sealing rings.  It has worked for 50 years so few plumbers are keen to change.  But indeed any break in the cement seal can cause odor issues (never heard of insects).  And suspect strain of our 90KG plus bodies not always the best condition for cement to hold up.  That said most of the time toilet can be removed/replaced without damage so if mounting holes are available refit could be done without complete replacement.  But then again toilets are not that expensive - so new might be a better option.

[Toolong]

5 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

We have cotto … you can buy the proper cotto kit. We had a smell and I took out the toilet and found that they hadn’t used the sealing ring.

 

The fact that the toilet is open at the back is no problem UNLESS the sealing ring hasn’t been fitted or fitted correctly

 

Some Thai plumbers believe that ring is not needed and throw it away..that then means that they rely on the white cement or whatever to provide the seal between pipe and toilet.

 

I’ll’ find you a picture of the kit you need later. 

They hadn't used the sealing ring? Oh, boy!

I'm no plumber, but I reckon it's a big mistake to leave out that sealing ring!

 

What you say, Jas21, is very interesting and most useful, as it's leading me to guess that either the fitter also left out the ring, or possibly didn't fit it properly. Maybe because he (or she!) could not possibly tighten down the bolts properly due to the tiny gap between toilet and wall. (The toilet isn't loose though, although the cement/grout sealant might just be holding it firm. ????)

 

Cheers.

[transam]

They may not have fitted the sealing ring, which in LOS, if the waste goes down through the floor, is a ring of sticky clay looking stuff, as you install the toilet it squashes down sealing any smells, etc...

 

That's what we have, though there are more modern plastic/rubber ones now, but I think for longevity the old method...

[Toolong]

3 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

I would say almost all do so.  Bathrooms have concrete floors here and toilets are cemented to them rather than using bolts in floor compressing sealing rings.  It has worked for 50 years so few plumbers are keen to change.  But indeed any break in the cement seal can cause odor issues (never heard of insects).  And suspect strain of our 90KG plus bodies not always the best condition for cement to hold up.  That said most of the time toilet can be removed/replaced without damage so if mounting holes are available refit could be done without complete replacement.  But then again toilets are not that expensive - so new might be a better option.

Thanks for that info! Wow, I'm learning a lot, fast.

 

Surprised...but also not surprised....that it's a tendency of Thai plumbers to miss out essential bits & pieces! 

 

I mentioned that access to that part of the toilet directly around where it meets the hole in floor is EXTREMELY limited. I cannot get my hand in anywhere near that point, nor the bolts screwing the thing to the floor. (Possibly they didn't screw it down at all!)

 

Right now, I'm thinking: change the whole toilet to something that allows for 100% seals + easy access, outside bolts with closed back, use of sealing ring, etc. 

 

Thanks a lot for your comment! ????????????

[Toolong]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

They may not have fitted the sealing ring, which in LOS, if the waste goes down through the floor, is a ring of sticky clay looking stuff, as you install the toilet it squashes down sealing any smells, etc...

 

That's what we have, though there are more modern plastic/rubber ones now, but I think for longevity the old method...

Interesting, transam. Thank you. I think I'll check out - if I can - stuff on youtube regarding sealing ring options. 

 

And I'll bear in my mind your own apparent preference for the 'clay' type.

 

Thanks, I'm getting there! ????????

 

 

[JAS21]

So here are some pics of a problem I had .. if you search towards then end of march 2019 you will see the problem that I had and the solution. Basically the soil pipe was put too far to one side and they bodged it my moving across.  I had to repair with a sleeve.

 

I show a pic of the kit you need together with pics that show you how to fit correctly. 

 

Use the proper Cotto Kit!

 

 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Toolong said:

Interesting, transam. Thank you. I think I'll check out - if I can - stuff on youtube regarding sealing ring options. 

 

And I'll bear in my mind your own apparent preference for the 'clay' type.

 

Thanks, I'm getting there! ????????

 

 

Your loo bowl probably has 2 screws keeping it in position, take those out, if the bowl moves easy then the seal could be the prob.

 

If me, I would remove the bowl and see what's going on...

[JAS21]

Here is the link to my problem of 2019   https://aseannow.com/topic/1088431-how-to-deal-with-this-plumbing-bodge/

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Toolong said:

The toilet itself works fine. And the opening at the back is definitely part of the design. Walking through 'Home-Pro' yesterday and noticed that many, if not most, of the toilets on sale were open at the back.

You can get ones that aren’t open backed if you want, 

like this

 

and this 

[Toolong]

52 minutes ago, transam said:

Your loo bowl probably has 2 screws keeping it in position, take those out, if the bowl moves easy then the seal could be the prob.

 

If me, I would remove the bowl and see what's going on...

Yes, I agree. I feel the thing to do is to take it all out and see it clearly. Then fix or replace. 

 

(Incidentally, shame they don't seem to have professional plumbers here, who specialize in this kind of stuff. Rather than just local handymen who have a general knowledge about it.....though I admit some of them can be good, for sure!) 

[Toolong]

34 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You can get ones that aren’t open backed if you want, 

like this

 

and this 

Interesting to see your toilet backed straight onto the wall. Looks very tidy! ????

 

Is it fastened to floor with bolts on the outside, or inside of the base? I can't quite see. If the bolts are inside, how did you have access to screw them down, I wonder? ????????

[Toolong]

1 hour ago, JAS21 said:

So here are some pics of a problem I had .. if you search towards then end of march 2019 you will see the problem that I had and the solution. Basically the soil pipe was put too far to one side and they bodged it my moving across.  I had to repair with a sleeve.

 

I show a pic of the kit you need together with pics that show you how to fit correctly. 

 

Use the proper Cotto Kit!

 

 

Ok! Thanks, JAS21. I'm going to open the link you sent and fully check this out. I think it's going to provide me with a lot of useful clues as to my problem and ways of fixing. 

 

Thanks a lot. This is perfect! ????

[Encid]

 

@Toolong

A few important observations about this diagram/method statement by Cotto that you need to compare with your own toilet...

 

Fig. 1 shows a dimension of 305mm from the face of the wall to the centreline of the 4" waste pipe outlet. Is yours the same?

 

Fig. 2 shows the fitting of the floor gasket, the PVC adapter flange, and most importantly, the sealing gasket that most Thai plumbers neglect to use. Is yours the same?

 

Fig. 5 shows the location of the holding-down bolts for the toilet. Typically these are covered by white plastic caps so they might not be easily noticed, but all toilets have them. Can you find yours?

[JAS21]

22 minutes ago, Encid said:

 

@Toolong

A few important observations about this diagram/method statement by Cotto that you need to compare with your own toilet...

 

Fig. 1 shows a dimension of 305mm from the face of the wall to the centreline of the 4" waste pipe outlet. Is yours the same?

 

Fig. 2 shows the fitting of the floor gasket, the PVC adapter flange, and most importantly, the sealing gasket that most Thai plumbers neglect to use. Is yours the same?

 

Fig. 5 shows the location of the holding-down bolts for the toilet. Typically these are covered by white plastic caps so they might not be easily noticed, but all toilets have them. Can you find yours?

Good points …. Re Fig5 … my holding down bolts were inside the hollow area. I needed to use a small ratchet and socket. I bedded the toilet on white cement and pulled the holding down bolts down whilst checking that the pan was level. If your tiles are perfectly flat you can get away with no white cement …. Just sealer as shown…I was just concerned about cracking the pan if I overtightened the holding down bolts.

 

Also  check that the pan looks parallel to the wall …you don’t want to be ******** at an angle do you ……..

[whereyougo]

5 hours ago, Toolong said:

Sorry, wife is busy in bathroom right now. Can't provide photo! ????

Can pay extra

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Toolong said:

Interesting to see your toilet backed straight onto the wall. Looks very tidy! ????

 

Is it fastened to floor with bolts on the outside, or inside of the base? I can't quite see. If the bolts are inside, how did you have access to screw them down, I wonder? ????????

We probably have the installation instructions somewhere, if I find them I’ll let you know.

 

As to the style wee like them and it makes cleaning easier.

[Toolong]

2 hours ago, Encid said:

 

@Toolong

A few important observations about this diagram/method statement by Cotto that you need to compare with your own toilet...

 

Fig. 1 shows a dimension of 305mm from the face of the wall to the centreline of the 4" waste pipe outlet. Is yours the same?

 

Fig. 2 shows the fitting of the floor gasket, the PVC adapter flange, and most importantly, the sealing gasket that most Thai plumbers neglect to use. Is yours the same?

 

Fig. 5 shows the location of the holding-down bolts for the toilet. Typically these are covered by white plastic caps so they might not be easily noticed, but all toilets have them. Can you find yours?

Hi Encid,

Thanks for the message. Your query #1: Yes, I would estimate it to be about 305mm. Can't actually measure it exactly at the moment.

Your query #2: toilet's still in place, so I can't yet know exactly what kind of flange there is.....assuming there is one! Probably isn't!

 

Your query #3: the bolts are definitely out of view inside the base. It baffles me how anyone could have access to them to screw them down at all, let alone tight! There's not enough of a gap between the back wall and the back of the toilet! 

 

I'm fascinated by what is going to be revealed when I do pull that toilet out!

 

Cheers! ????????????

[Toolong]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

We probably have the installation instructions somewhere, if I find them I’ll let you know.

 

As to the style wee like them and it makes cleaning easier.

Definitely looks cleaner, more tidy, and more stable too, being up against the wall. I like it! ????????

[Toolong]

2 hours ago, whereyougo said:

Can pay extra

???????? I shouldn't laugh.....you cheeky devil!

[Toolong]

2 hours ago, JAS21 said:

Good points …. Re Fig5 … my holding down bolts were inside the hollow area. I needed to use a small ratchet and socket. I bedded the toilet on white cement and pulled the holding down bolts down whilst checking that the pan was level. If your tiles are perfectly flat you can get away with no white cement …. Just sealer as shown…I was just concerned about cracking the pan if I overtightened the holding down bolts.

 

Also  check that the pan looks parallel to the wall …you don’t want to be ******** at an angle do you ……..

Got a question, JAS21.....and it's a question that baffles me at the moment (because I've a feeling once the toilet is lifted out, the answer will be more than clear.....hopefully! 

 

So the question is: if the toilet body is ONE piece, with only access to holding-down bolts via the hollow area at the back.....which in my case is too small for getting wrenches, rachets & sockets in..........how the hell can tightening of the bolts be done??!!!! Or don't Thai plumbers bother and just rest the whole thing in cement/ silicone?? ????

[JAS21]

55 minutes ago, Toolong said:

Got a question, JAS21.....and it's a question that baffles me at the moment (because I've a feeling once the toilet is lifted out, the answer will be more than clear.....hopefully! 

 

So the question is: if the toilet body is ONE piece, with only access to holding-down bolts via the hollow area at the back.....which in my case is too small for getting wrenches, rachets & sockets in..........how the hell can tightening of the bolts be done??!!!! Or don't Thai plumbers bother and just rest the whole thing in cement/ silicone?? ????

My toilet has a 20cm gap ..the rear is 7cm from the wall. So I didn’t have a big problem accessing the studs. 
 

Can you get your hand in to feel if it is bolted down …can you feel the two nuts.

 

I cannot say for sure BUT I think mine wasn’t bolted down initially.  it was just sitting on a bed of something like white cement …but it was actually a pink colour.

 

If your wife is dainty/thin boned ask he to put her hand in and feel around for the nuts. 
 

If  the plumber set it on a thick cement bed it will be reasonably easy, although time consuming, to chip out. Post a photo of where the pan joins the floor…if you can chip a bit out to show how close it is to the tiles …of course he might have glued it to the floor….

 

enjoy

 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Toolong said:

Definitely looks cleaner, more tidy, and more stable too, being up against the wall. I like it! ????????

You probably won’t like the price though. ????