NI Protocol: 'Final talks' due between Rishi Sunak and Ursula von der Leyen

[transam]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

How do the benefits of this newly regained sovereignty manifest themselves?

Being out of the clutches of spongers and being controlled by the big boy's......

Reminds me of Oliver Twist & Scrooge.....

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, transam said:

Being out of the clutches of spongers and being controlled by the big boy's......

Reminds me of Oliver Twist & Scrooge.....

Yes, but besides the voices in your head, how do you tangibly experience this 'freedom'?

[transam]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Yes, but besides the voices in your head, how do you tangibly experience this 'freedom'?

For me, by democracy, the British people voted to leave the EU, it was implemented..........

[RuamRudy]

13 minutes ago, transam said:

For me, by democracy, the British people voted to leave the EU, it was implemented..........

So akin to reaching consensus with the missus and kids about what you are going to watch on telly tonight, except with lots of economic pain?

[transam]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

So akin to reaching consensus with the missus and kids about what you are going to watch on telly tonight, except with lots of economic pain?

????...................I am posting on a Thai English-speaking forum, having a bit of fun, I am not in the UK being miserable...............

[Hi from France]

7 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Brexit was never about % points of GDP. 

what was that then?

 

 

 

 

Brexit was sold as "oven-ready", making people and the country wealthier as well as helping the NHS thanks to "Brexit benefits"

 

what has been achieved is 

 

 

 

 

headlines of a famous brexiter newspaper before/after

 

[JonnyF]

7 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

what was that then?

 

 

 

 

Brexit was sold as "oven-ready", making people and the country wealthier as well as helping the NHS thanks to "Brexit benefits"

 

what has been achieved is 

 

 

 

 

headlines of a famous brexiter newspaper before/after

 

Pledging to spend more on the NHS is not the same as promising an increase in GDP. 2 different things. And that pledge for increased spending on the NHS has been met.

 

Food prices have gone up globally, not only in Britain. Maybe you heard about Covid and the war in Ukraine? Presumably price rises here in Thailand are due to Brexit as well? ????

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Oh how I wish that were true, and that my country was free of the malignant effect of being governed by Westminster. 

I did mean that this discussion is between England and Ireland and Scotland has no input in the discussion 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I did mean that this discussion is between England and Ireland and Scotland has no input in the discussion 

But that's patent nonsense unless you are suggesting that the UK government doesn't govern for the whole country, but for England alone.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I did mean that this discussion is between England and Ireland and Scotland has no input in the discussion 

The discussion is not between ‘England and Ireland’.

 

Brexiteer ignorance of the very most basic issues surrounding UK government is astounding, it is Brexit’s strongest suit.

 

 

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

42 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But that's patent nonsense unless you are suggesting that the UK government doesn't govern for the whole country, but for England alone.

That is what Scottish people keep telling me , they keep telling me that Westminster is the English Government and I believed them.

   Are you telling me that they are wrong ?

[RayC]

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

didn't say "all brits" but what you hold here is the very typical british view of the EU as a big market with no political power.

Again you leap to an illogical conclusion. Where have I stated or even inferred that the EU has no political power? In fact, my posts lead most people to reach the completely opposite conclusion.

 

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

The remainer argument I read over and over is not about a common European project, but about making more money, fostering economic growth etc... nothing wrong with that but it shows having the UK as a EU member was a mistake all along.

Playing Devil's Advocate, you accept that there is nothing wrong per sec with the pursuit of economic growth, but at the same time state that the UK's focus on it is a reason for excluding it from the EU! Once again, a completely illogical argument and conclusion.

 

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

I'm fine with having lots of collaborations with the UK, as long as we are not again taken for a ride. Fine with EFTA, but no full membership, the British influence was detrimental.

More of the same: "we were .. taken for a ride."; ".. the British influence was detrimental." But nothing to support these contentions.

 

EFTA/ EEA might be used (and useful) as a staging post for full EU membership but I can't see much appeal from a UK perspective of making it a permanent home. The cost of membership would be probably be high with likely limited influence over EU regulation of the Single Market and input in the decision making of the various programmes.

 

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

I'm surprised you don't know about NextGenerationEU (EU bond, €800 billion to fund the recovery), REPowerEU, the Stand Up for Ukraine campaign,  joint procurement in defence investments: all of these major advances would have been watered down or vetoed by the brits.

This is becoming very repetitive. Where is the evidence to support your conclusions that "all of these major advances would have been watered down or vetoed by the brits."?

 

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

 

I couldn't care less that the short-term economic effect of Brexit on the EU has been negative.

Evangelical EUrophiles have, at least, one thing in common with fundamentalist Brexiters: a seemingly total disregard for economic consequences and reality.

 

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

so

• for the European project, Brexit was great. We have a stronger EU (and many problems indeed, but we can face them in a better way)

Evidence?

 

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

• in the longer term, we'll probably have the UK back in the single market, though we need to be very careful = we have to take back control of our €uro forex, bonds, and stock markets

Agreed

 

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

• Brexit has been great for public opinion across Europe

 

 

Apparently so. Good news.

[Chomper Higgot]

8 hours ago, transam said:

Being out of the clutches of spongers and being controlled by the big boy's......

Reminds me of Oliver Twist & Scrooge.....

From Oliver Twist, directly to Hard Times.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

That is what Scottish people keep telling me , they keep telling me that Westminster is the English Government and I believed them.

   Are you telling me that they are wrong ?

No, you are wrong.

 

And you are trying to dodge the fact you’ve been spotted.

[RayC]

13 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Wrong. Britain has broken free from the EU and regained it's sovereignty. That's a massive win.

Given the number of times I have made this following point, I think that I might stumble across an absolute value of infinity in the near future.

 

Between 1997 - 2016, the UK was 'forced' to enact 3% of EU regulation which it had voted against. This is a similar figure to France and Germany, and unsurprising in a collaborative, democratic organisation. 

 

If you think that regaining 3% of 'lost' sovereignty is worth all this turmoil, fair enough. I don't.

 

(I have posted links numerous times in the past. I am not going to do so again).

 

13 hours ago, JonnyF said:

The EU gained nothing, it lost one of it's richest members and largest net contributors and also exposed itself as a self serving, spiteful organization.

@Hi from France amongst others would disagree with you.

 

Actually, I agree with your first point. The EU has also been a loser due to Brexit.

 

Your second comment is nonsense.

 

13 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Brexit was never about % points of GDP. That is something that Remainers cannot (or refuse to) understand.

So the effect on the economy is secondary to the greater goal? Who says that people don't vote to become poorer.

 

You and Hi seem to agree on this point.

 

13 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

In any case, it was always a long term project. You can't undo 30 years of being stifled by an overly bureaucratic, corrupt organization in a couple of years, especially when those couple of years included Covid 19 lockdowns and a war in Ukraine.

Most of this is just empty rhetoric but to paraphrase Keynes, "In the long run, we are all dead". 

 

Of course, Covid and the war in Ukraine had a major effect on economies worldwide. No one is denying that but it is also used as a cloak to hide behind.

 

Although it would be too much to expect trade deals to be concluded during Covid, there was no reason why preparatory work and meetings (over Zoom) could not continue. Where is the evidence to suggest that we are any closer to securing any meaningful deals than we were 2 years ago?

 

13 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

We'll have a much clearer picture of the longer term economic impact 5 years from now.

Although I would have expected some green shoots to have started appearing, a 5-year time horizon seems reasonable. 

 

My crystal ball tells me that now that we have grown-up politicians in charge of the 2 main parties, relations with the EU will have improved. Unfortunately, there's still no sign of those post-Brexit 'sunny uplands' and new trade deals. 

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The discussion is not between ‘England and Ireland’.

 

Brexiteer ignorance of the very most basic issues surrounding UK government is astounding, it is Brexit’s strongest suit.

 

 

 

 

He's got you again. You just can't see humour, can you?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

He's got you again. You just can't see humour, can you?

I can spot ignorance when I see it.

 

Especially ‘Little Englander ‘ ignorance.

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I can spot ignorance when I see it.

 

Especially ‘Little Englander ‘ ignorance.

Go back to the posts by the Scottish nationalist and take a long hard look. You might see it then.

 

This is problem you often fall into when quoting one whilst they were quoting another.

[Hi from France]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

This is becoming very repetitive. 

you are too actually UK constant obstruction is so famous it was featured in Yes Minister ????

 

 

[Hi from France]

3 hours ago, RayC said:

EFTA/ EEA might be used (and useful) as a staging post for full EU membership but I can't see much appeal from a UK perspective of making it a permanent home. The cost of membership would be probably be high with likely limited influence over EU regulation of the Single Market and input in the decision making of the various programmes.

beside denying the UK was at best an annoyance, at worst a free-rider all those years : a summary of the British government’s attitude at the European 2011 summit

 

Quote

When reality dawned in London, the government had to stand traditional British policy on its head. Gone were the days of divide and rule, of keeping a seat at the negotiating table, of damage limitation, of defensive “red lines”; in came the new British policy of sabotage.

save the Tony Blair years, the UK has always been a drag : it was a pleasant surprise the UK slammed the door on its own initiative (I wish Hungary would do the same, though Orban is not *that* stupid)

[RayC]

58 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

beside denying the UK was at best an annoyance, at worst a free-rider all those years : a summary of the British government’s attitude at the European 2011 summit

 

save the Tony Blair years, the UK has always been a drag : it was a pleasant surprise the UK slammed the door on its own initiative (I wish Hungary would do the same, though Orban is not *that* stupid)

Opinion pieces by the former Presidents of the Union of European Federalists and the Secretary General of the European Federalists (France)  hardly constitute objective sources of information. It's akin to quoting Nigel Farage as evidence in support of a piece entitled 'Why Brexit is a good thing'!

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

you are too actually UK constant obstruction is so famous it was featured in Yes Minister ????

 

 

???? You win!

 

Thanks for posting the clip. Great TV series.

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

???? You win!

 

Thanks for posting the clip. Great TV series.

yay !

 

now what for the future?

 

 

My take is Britain ended up spending forty years inside the UE negotiating opt-outs.. and now we're in for forty years out negotiating opt-ins

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

Opinion pieces by the former Presidents of the Union of European Federalists and the Secretary General of the European Federalists (France)  hardly constitute objective sources of information. It's akin to quoting Nigel Farage as evidence in support of a piece entitled 'Why Brexit is a good thing'!

bah

 

no one is "objective", you just need to recognize their arguments  (which are mostly mine as well and are indeed backed by solid facts over many, many years) : that's what matters.

 

we think experience has shown again and again the EU is better off without Britain as a member.

 

This is sad indeed, but having Britain with all the prerogatives and privileges of permanent membership, including the right of veto has been a drag all along.

 

[RayC]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

yay !

 

now what for the future?

 

 

My take is Britain ended up spending forty years inside the UE negotiating opt-outs.. and now we're in for forty years out negotiating opt-ins

Maybe not 40 years but imo the UK's reentry into the EU is not going to happen anytime soon. 2040?

[RayC]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

bah

 

no one is "objective", you just need to recognize their arguments  (which are mostly mine as well and are indeed backed by solid facts over many, many years) : that's what matters.

I agree that no one is totally objective. The challenge is to suppress one's subjective bias and look at the evidence impartially. Unfortunately, you are not doing this at the moment.

 

If there are "solid facts" to support your argument then you have failed to produce them. Instead - and I will  repeat myself - the supporting evidence consists of a clip from a 40+-year old TV series (albeit a very good TV series) and two opinion pieces from committed federalists, one of which - the article by Andrew Duff in the FT - is almost completely devoid of fact.

 

I am not going to critique all the points raised in the two pieces but will make the following points.

 

Ms. Fabre implies that the UK's misgivings about the CAP were a major reason for its' delayed entry into the EU and friction within the EU once it joined. Let's accept this argument. It then begs the question:  Did the UK have a point? I would suggest that the answer is 'Yes'.

 

The CAP has noble intentions i.e. to provide food security across Europe amongst other things, but its' implementation and operation is a wasteful, inefficient mess. This is seen - not just by the UK - but more widely by other (current) member states. However, attempts to reform the CAP are invariably stymied by France! Who's the drag on the EU in this instance?

 

The article by Mr. Duff basically amounts to federalism good (with no justification necessary) and any barriers to its' implementation, bad.

 

Firstly, he berates the UK government for seeking to protect the City of London. I would have thought that any UK government would be failing in its' duty if it didn't seek to protect a key industry but, presumably it must be sacrificed in the interests of federalism, the greater good as he would no doubt view it.

 

Mr. Duff goes on to discuss, what he sees as the need for greater fiscal union. He acknowledges that many members of the Eurozone have reservations about total fiscal union and that such a development requires unanimity at Council level which will not be forthcoming. However, this is just another barrier to be swept aside without discussion. By the use of clever legal manoeuvres, the need for Council involvement might be by-passed!

 

I would argue that it is this type of arrogant disregard for any form of dissent and need for discussion which was a contributory factor in the 'Leave' vote in the Brexit referendum, and it is just this type of attitude that continues to fuel anti-EU sentiment throughout Europe today.

 

Europe is not one homogenous entity that can be molded to fit the desires of an elite who happen to believe in federalism. It is a collection of nations who share many goals and have much in common, however it is also culturally, economically and politically diverse. The sooner the federalists accept this, the sooner the EU wil be able to progress further still.

 

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

we think experience has shown again and again the EU is better off without Britain as a member.

 

This is sad indeed, but having Britain with all the prerogatives and privileges of permanent membership, including the right of veto has been a drag all along.

 

Again opinion based on the belief that the federalisation of the EU is, by definition, good, necessary and inevitable (see my comments above).

[JonnyF]

11 hours ago, RayC said:

Between 1997 - 2016, the UK was 'forced' to enact 3% of EU regulation which it had voted against. This is a similar figure to France and Germany, and unsurprising in a collaborative, democratic organisation. 

 

If you think that regaining 3% of 'lost' sovereignty is worth all this turmoil, fair enough. I don't.

It's the thin end of the wedge. A creeping federalism. From the original common market to the current EU was a massive change and that change will continue/accelerate over the next couple of decades (assuming the EU lasts that long). The direction of travel is clear for all but the blindest to see. They are heading towards a United States of Europe run by unelected technocrats and many British, myself included did not want to be a part of it.

 

If you're in a bus accelerating towards a cliff edge, it's better to jump out before it's going so fast that it becomes life threatening to do so. Britain did that. We scraped our knees on the tarmac, couple of bruises here and there. But nothing that won't heal over time. Far better than the alternative, being ruled by "selected" rather than elected leaders like Juncker and Von Der Leyen.  

[brewsterbudgen]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It's the thin end of the wedge. A creeping federalism. From the original common market to the current EU was a massive change and that change will continue/accelerate over the next couple of decades (assuming the EU lasts that long). The direction of travel is clear for all but the blindest to see. They are heading towards a United States of Europe run by unelected technocrats and many British, myself included did not want to be a part of it.

 

If you're in a bus accelerating towards a cliff edge, it's better to jump out before it's going so fast that it becomes life threatening to do so. Britain did that. We scraped our knees on the tarmac, couple of bruises here and there. But nothing that won't heal over time. Far better than the alternative, being ruled by "selected" rather than elected leaders like Juncker and Von Der Leyen.  

Is this really a bad thing.  A United States of Europe will be able to compete with China and the declining USA.  I'm all for it.

[JonnyF]

14 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Is this really a bad thing.  A United States of Europe will be able to compete with China and the declining USA.  I'm all for it.

At least you admit that's what is happening. Kudos. Most Europhiles deny this to be the case.

 

Is it a bad thing? Well, that's what the referendum was for. Britain decided it WAS a bad thing. Democratically.  

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Go back to the posts by the Scottish nationalist and take a long hard look. You might see it then.

 

This is problem you often fall into when quoting one whilst they were quoting another.

I’m only responsible for what I myself post.