British tourists to Thailand: Are you really covered? Travel insurance warning for medical emergencies

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, ChipButty said:

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Well, that's not the FCO's fault!

I didn't say it was did i? 

I didn't say that you did, did I?

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

You can't fix stupid sadly but the comparison sites make it easy to choose

Maybe this how they get it wrong ... by relying on comparison sites without going into the detail?

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, Terry2905 said:

I am 1 the unfortunate individuals who had an insurance claim (locally purchased from a reputable company) cancelled and not paid out for an urgent heart operation. I "accidently missed" declaring a previous condition.

"I "accidently missed" declaring a previous condition".

QED.

[superal]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

It comes down to age as well....  when I was young I was under the impression that the travel insurance provided by my ‘credit card’ sufficient cover... why wouldn’t I ????.... when I took the card that was one of the main points of the advertising (full travel insurance) so when I received the card I thought I was covered whenever I travelled (turns out I needed to book the travel through the ‘cards travel provider, or some such similar technicality’). 

 

I’m sure many others have fallen into that trap / been mistaken and look back and realise they were lucky. 

 

 

The No Helmets / Riding while drunk / without a licence etc are also issues - I know this is common sense, but Insurance companies could be a lot clearer with their exclusions, particularly in key areas of cover. 

(i.e. on front page - NOT COVERED IF RIDING WITHOUT A LICENCE, WITHOUT A HELMET OR WHILE INTOXICATED)

 

 

Regarding the main article: 

Since when was this considered a ‘hazardous sport’ ??....   I’ve done this, my family have all done this - IF such activities are considered dangerous insurance policies need to **list them, not hide behind vague wording ‘DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES’ because what I considered dangerous may be different and if an insurance company is not specific on this, their wording simply gives them wiggle room when the underwriter decides the claim is too high and ’rafting down a river’ or ‘falling off an elephant’ (or horse etc) was a ‘DANGEROUS ACTIVITY’....

 

 

This is untrue - Driving in Thailand on a UK licence is legal, there is also misconception that an IDP is needed (it not for a Licence issued in English from a country which is signatory to 1968 Vienna convention on road traffic).

(*Note: if the driver is a resident (i.e. on a Non-Immigrant Visa) they need to have a Thai Licence).

 

I don't care to get into the nth debate about these facts and the various interpretations surrounding the vagueness of the Thai Land Traffic Act etc (That said: I would advise any tourist to also get an IDP and any resident to get a Thai licence to avoid such debates with ether the police or an insurance company etc).

 

----------

 

**Regarding Elephant tracking being considered a dangerous sport. 

No insurance policy I have ever read mentions this. 

A while back it took me two months to obtain clarification from an insurance company regarding their wording ‘dangerous activities’...    their response was repeatedly vague and ambiguous... 

At one point the response was something along the lines of “cover (for skiing) will be decided upon based on the extent of the injuries in the event of an accident”, when pushed on this they responded that they’d decided IF in the event of injury they’d interpret if we were skiing dangerously based on the extent of injury... Which, IMO was utterly ridiculous. 

Eventually after a lot of back and forth and pushing them into corners I received a list and of specifics regarding cover. 

- Skiing (any country On Piste and / or Off-piste with a guide) - [full cover]

- Bicycling (in Thailand, on roads) - [full cover]

- Mountain biking  (on and off road) - [full cover]

- Wakeboarding / water skiing  (in Thailand) - [full cover]

- Motorcycling (in Thailand, on roads) - [full cover when licensed]

- Motorcycle Taxi  (in Thailand) - [full cover / no mention of helmet or not]

- Taxi  (in Thailand) - [full cover / no mention of seatbelt wearing or not]

- Diving - [full cover - when recreational diving IF certified (PADI) or with an instructor]

- Competitive Sports - [when not professional - fully covered]

 

Things I didn’t think of... 

- Rafting / Elephant riding / Bungee jumping / SkyDiving / *crossing the road !!!... 

 

(*potetnially one of the most dangerous activities in Thailand !)

 

The Point with my List is that it took two months to push the insurance company to be specific - their initial ambiguity provided them with sufficient wiggle room to avoid a claim, I accused them of such. 

At that point I was a few months away from needing renewal cover and wanted to ‘win’ and push them to give specific responses just to see how far they would go to avoid specifics and potentially avoid responsibility.

IMO, they’re [insurance companies] are all as bad as each other and look for the smallest of reasons not to pay out. 

 

 

 

 

 

Your extensive post mentions motorbike taxis which are used by holiday tourists and even long stayers to a large degree . 9 times out of 10 the passenger will not have a crash helmet because we are only going on a short ride to another bar as an example . Straight away the passenger is not insured and the taxi motorbike will almost certainly be uninsured for passengers . Many passengers will have had a few drinks and the insurance company will use this to avoid any pay out , under their intoxicated clause / under the influence of alcohol . 

[Jumbo1968]

6 hours ago, IrishInThailand said:

Yes for sure most insurance comps will try to not pay..... e.g 30 days max cover.(but i only going for 31 days) .. High blood pressure you didn't declare and got stroke....... bye bye .... license uk, no license Thai(rental company said I was OK? ) ...... check the small print or use gofundme

TBH have you ever tried to read the terms and conditions where the text is so small it’s barely readable a deliberate ploy I believe by the insurance companies so people can’t be bothered taking the time to read them.

[scubascuba3]

5 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Maybe this how they get it wrong ... by relying on comparison sites without going into the detail?

They can read the policy doc it's there with the quote, also can message them normally, i asked once whether pillion was covered as not specified anywhere, they confirmed it was by email

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, Jumbo1968 said:

TBH have you ever tried to read the terms and conditions where the text is so small it’s barely readable

That is a completely false assertion, no insurers these days are permitted by their regulators to do that.

[kwilco]

Why is it the British more than any other nationality?

Is it because they have the NHS and don't consider health insurance as back home its already included in their deductions and benefits?

Or is it because the country is going through a mental aberration?  

Like Brexit they don't think they are part of the rest of the world and simp,y think they don't need I surance or are too dim to work out what good cover is?

 

..or are they just the kind of people who irresponsibly engage in reckless or drunk activities?

[Confuscious]

It is easy to point a finger at the insurance companies, but if you read why they were refused, the insurance companies have acted legaly and bear no blame.

A trip to Pattaya, or ant tourist side will show the behavior of these tourists and NO insurance company will cover them.

Driving at high speed, on a main road, with 1 or more girls on your lap, is NOT a way to holiday in a foreign country.

[NedR69]

Must be similar to the garbage that was pushed during quarantine when applying for the thaipass.  

[Jumbo1968]

17 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

That is a completely false assertion, no insurers these days are permitted by their regulators to do that.

Obviously never looked the T&Cs recently then ?

[Bday Prang]

7 hours ago, still kicking said:

I am not British but I have top class insurance so were does that leaves me 

reading the policy exclusions would normally be the way of finding out ! 

[Bday Prang]

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

Why should insurance companies have to state the obvious? A simple statement that putting yourself in danger is not covered should be enough for those activities. If someone can't be bothered to secure (not just wear) on a helmet when riding a motorcycle, why should an insurance company pay for their preventable head  injuries?

Many times me and my family have been the only ones on a bus or minivan wearing seat belts. The other passengers may feel cool and look down on me but in a crash I am far more likely to survive uninjured. I always take safety seriously. I will choose the best helmet in the rack not the prettiest. I will choose the bike with disc brakes instead of useless drum brakes. I will check everything works including lights. Accidents will happen so do what you can to improve your chances of survival and you will be much more likely to be covered by insurance.

It is impossible to list every activity and your responsibilities so use some common sense and don't be lazy.

If it is illegal to do something in the UK, what makes people think a UK insurance company is going to cover you to do it in a foreign country?

There is nothing wrong with drum brakes, nothing at all !

[keithcresswell]

After reading my policy I stopped using motorbike taxis as none of them seem to provide a passenger helmet anymore.

[VBF]

Luckily, I've so far (!) never made a major claim for sickness, but over 20 years, I've made 5 small ones, all paid in full - things like ear infections, pickpocketed (in my early naïve days) but I DO tell the insurers that my trip is over 30 days (and pay the extra premium); I DO tell the insurers about my medical condition (and pay the extra premium) and I DO avoid things like bungee jumping (terrified anyway!!!) and DON'T ride motorcycles.

 

I'm surprised that elephant trekking would be regarded as too dangerous to cover and I always thought that a UK driving licence was good for one's FIRST 30 DAYS in Thailand. If I'm going to drive (a car) I get an IDP anyway - very cheap and easy.

 

My last claim was for a Business Class flight from BKK to London in 2020 when the UK went into lockdown. My airline had stopped flying and UK Gov told all British travellers to return home. As the policy stated that one must comply with FCO advice, they paid without a murmur - including my bus and Uber fares from London Heathrow to home. ????

Edited April 10, 2023 by VBF

[spidermike007]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

It is the MO of all insurance companies to pay out all genuine claims that are covered by the policy. 

The financial liability of insurers' paying claims has little effect on them as insurance companies are covered by their own insurance for those liabilities which are massively outweighed by premium revenue.

I couldn't disagree more adamantly, which seems to be the theme of our recent exchanges. There is so much evidence to the contrary. Though, I am sure the industry appreciates your faith in them. 

 

Even calling it "insurance" is a sick joke. Insurance implies a guarantee, and no matter what we pay, there are never any guarantees. I propose replacing the word "insurance" with the word "maybe?" -- including the question mark -- as in "health maybe?" Maybe they'll pay when we get sick. Maybe they won't randomly hike our monthly premium by 30 percent. Maybe they'll cover our preexisting conditions without gouging us -- that is if they agree to cover us at all. Maybe they won't let our family members die after refusing coverage.

 

Allstate is a great example of intentional insurance fraud, committed against policy holders. 

 

https://www.decof.com/documents/the-ten-worst-insurance-companies.pdf

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by spidermike007

[kwilco]

45 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

They can read the policy doc it's there with the quote, also can message them normally, i asked once whether pillion was covered as not specified anywhere, they confirmed it was by email

That's not what you said... you were implying that comparison sites show this detail...they don't. I had to ring/ email my insurer directly to sort out finer details and even then they couldn't answer straight away either.

My most recent query was about size of M/C the limit was 125cc.

I also got extra excess waiver on my car hire.

I was covered for a preexisting condition and and any delays due to Covid. Each trip is limited to so many days at a time, the length of which depends on your age.

These are simple declarations and easily verified by insurance companies.

Usually one "failure to declare" voids ALL cover, not just the one item.

Some people don't even realise what countries they are covered for.

Edited April 10, 2023 by kwilco

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

2 hours ago, Terry2905 said:

I am 1 the unfortunate individuals who had an insurance claim (locally purchased from a reputable company) cancelled and not paid out for an urgent heart operation. I "accidently missed" declaring a previous condition. 2 pages of "yes or no", and I missed answering 1 yes!

 

Why?

 

Because the application form quite clearly stated if I had been diagnosed with a mental health issue in the last 10 years.

 

Yes, I had been misdiagnosed with a variety of mental health issues, ranging from anxiety, insomnia, MDD, bipolar 1, bipolar 2, et al! My records were from more than 10 years ago, but still on record at Bangkok Hospital. 

 

And some of the questions are there deliberately to refuse payment! For example? Have you ever had a headache in the last 10 years! Hmm! Does that include the occasional hangover! LOL!

 

I did declare all my previous pre existing conditions, but even though I had never been diagnosed or treated for a heart condition, my heart operation claim was refused!

 

And now, because I have had a health insurance policy refused/cancelled, no insurance company will cover me!

 

Thankfully I am on a non O extension, so insurance is not mandatory.

 

Anyway, the crux of the matter is that 1 very small mistake in the application form resulted in me "losing" the 65,000 baht cover fee, and then having to pay out of my own pocket 450,000 baht hospital fee for the heart operation.

 

I did appeal to the local insurance company, telling them that it was a very genuine misunderstanding/error on the application form, but to no avail!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Section 865 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code imposes strict disclosure requirements on insurance applicants. It also appears to only allow an insurer to void a policy if non-disclosure was material and intentional. There also appears to be a five-year time bar, however it is not clear how this would work with a recurring disclosure requirement at renewals.

 

https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/civil-and-commercial-code-insurance-section-861-868/#:~:text=Section 865.&text=If such right of avoidance,contract%2C such right is extinguished.

 

This is something that may have been worth appealing to the OIC.

[Lacessit]

Many insurance companies have a department with the specific task of vetting and rejecting claims on the slightest pretext. Some even incentivize their staff to do so, with bonuses.

I have self-insured my travel for many years. IIRC, the biggest cost to me was one event where a cancelled flight plus overnight accommodation was about 3000 baht. Trifling compared to what I would have paid over the years in premiums.

I do have car and private health insurance, which both work well. IMO the travel insurance and life insurance industries are a different kettle of fish, both scams.

[kwilco]

12 minutes ago, VBF said:

always thought that a UK driving licence was good for one's FIRST 30 DAYS in Thailand

They used to be...Thailands situation re the Vienna convention of 1968 changes in 2020.

It could be argued that an IDP wasn't needed before then but now I wouldn't want to argue the point.

In Thailand many insurers don't cover you or your vehicle after 3 months if you don't have a Thai driving licence.

People on long term visas are expected to have one too.

 

Insurance is a contract, not some nebulous promise and however obscure some may think it is, there is usually a big clear section outlining what's  not  insured 

[Andrew65]

58 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Why is it the British more than any other nationality?

Is it because they have the NHS and don't consider health insurance as back home its already included in their deductions and benefits?

Or is it because the country is going through a mental aberration?  

Like Brexit they don't think they are part of the rest of the world and simp,y think they don't need I surance or are too dim to work out what good cover is?

 

..or are they just the kind of people who irresponsibly engage in reckless or drunk activities?

It's probably the NHS mentality, because medical costs aren't soemthing that Brits have to worry about, or know about.

Also, this issue was exactly the same when the UK was an EU member state, and the UK is still as much part of the rest of the world as it always was. Then again, I've got used to people mentioning Brexit with reagrd to things that have absolutley nothing to do with it.

[kwilco]

30 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

There is nothing wrong with drum brakes, nothing at all !

Whereas your concern about safety is laudable, your knowledge of actual safety devices is somewhat lacking.

[DavisH]

8 hours ago, harleyclarkey said:

What we see here is mostly scooter/motorcycle accidents. A recent go fund me for £200,000 - really??? ????

Stupid to rent a bike anywhere in the world without at least a helmet. 

Stupid of any country to allow bikes to be rented without providing a helmet.

Stupid of any police force not to fine idiots with no helmet. 

And stupid to rent bikes to people without a bike licence from their home country. Twits...

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

Why should insurance companies have to state the obvious? A simple statement that putting yourself in danger is not covered should be enough for those activities. If someone can't be bothered to secure (not just wear) on a helmet when riding a motorcycle,

 

No it's not... ‘your version of putting yourself in danger’ is different from mine.... 

Is getting on the back of a motorcycle taxi putting yourself in danger ?... With a thin plastic helmet ?

 

Insurance companies CAN do better at outlining what is not covered - they never make it that clear because they want to attract the customer and not frighten them away with exclusions knowing many will not read the pages of details.

 

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

why should an insurance company pay for their preventable head  injuries?

Agreed....  Should insurance companies also insist that we wear a full face ECE rated helmet when going on a motorcycle rather than a Big C plastic bucket ?

 

 

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

Many times me and my family have been the only ones on a bus or minivan wearing seat belts. The other passengers may feel cool and look down on me but in a crash I am far more likely to survive uninjured.

Mini-vans and safety in the same sentence is somewhat of an oxymoron.... 

In the car yesterday my Wife and I both noticed a Mini-van behind me, driving considerately and not tailgating us... We both commented on the rarity of seeing a considerate mini-van driver !!! 

 

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

I always take safety seriously.

No you don’t... you take Mini-vans !!! (ok, a bit harsh... IF you are privately hiring minivans you can control the driver - but if you are taking a public mini-van the drivers are generally lunatics and you have no control over their speed or driving). 

 

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

I will choose the best helmet in the rack not the prettiest.

What rack ???...  you mean a shop or do motorcycle rental shops have racks ?

(I have a number of helmets in my house - Bell (closed face), Bell (Open Face), Shoei  (Modular) AVG (open face - the last one mail ordered to Phuket when I was sandboxing there for 2 weeks and hired a motorcycle - I refuse to use rental helmets... because, the best one on the rack is still rubbish).

 

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

I will choose the bike with disc brakes instead of useless drum brakes.

This shows you are making stuff up...  No motorcycles use drum brakes anymore.... 

And... Chose one with ABS.

 

 

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

I will check everything works including lights. Accidents will happen so do what you can to improve your chances of survival and you will be much more likely to be covered by insurance.

You mean you wear full body gear (riding boots, riding pants, riding jacket with armour, Gloves and full-face helmet) ?????......     If you don’t you’re being hypocritical..... 

And... no insurance offers you are ‘more likely to be covered if you have worn kit to improve your chances of survival’... it simply stipulates you must have followed the law (and the law is to wear a helmet and ride licensed). 

 

 

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

It is impossible to list every activity and your responsibilities so use some common sense and don't be lazy.

100% Agree..... But where is that line ????......   I’ve been on elephants and never once considered that my insurance would not be valid because its considered a ‘dangerous activity’... 

... So is rafting also dangerous ? what about the water-park.....      the ’dangerous clause’ offers the insurance company way too much wiggle room IMO. 

 

 

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

If it is illegal to do something in the UK, what makes people think a UK insurance company is going to cover you to do it in a foreign country?

UK law doesn't matter in other countries, only the law of that country matters and any further clauses an insurance company would add. 

 

i.e. Do insurance companies cover pillion passengers with a cheapo- plastic helmet ? apparently so, but that helmet would be illegal in the UK.... it may also be illegal in Thailand too as there are safety standards here, but the issue is that they are not so commonly followed or enforced, there are also many counterfeit items). 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

11 minutes ago, DavisH said:

And stupid to rent bikes to people without a bike licence from their home country. Twits...

Since when have businesses in Thailand cared for or even considered safety of the customer ?

Its illegal to rent a motorcycle to someone without a license in Thailand, this has been mentioned numerous times by the Police, who invariably have a crack-down on one or two shops following a Russian or Arab in Pattaya decapitating himself on a 1000cc sports bike. 

 

The businesses are never held accountable so its not in their interest at all do do anything about unlicensed riders using cheap illegal (substandard) or no helmets.... 

 

Whereas in the other nations (i.e. the UK / France etc)... Anyone renting a car or bike has to show a full licence, if they have an incident and they are not licensed the rental company can be accountable.

 

Additionally... anyone riding a motorcycle without a helmet does not get very far at all until stopped and fined a lot of money.

 

 

 

[orchis]

10 hours ago, webfact said:

The Association of British Insurers pointed out that 17% of all overseas claims are rejected due to lack of documentation, and the average payout for successful claims is just over £1,000.

aka a very successful business model. 

[kwilco]

34 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

It's probably the NHS mentality, because medical costs aren't soemthing that Brits have to worry about, or know about.

Also, this issue was exactly the same when the UK was an EU member state, and the UK is still as much part of the rest of the world as it always was. Then again, I've got used to people mentioning Brexit with reagrd to things that have absolutley nothing to do with it.

Brexit is a mentality.

[sidneybear]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"...they have a knee jerk reaction to try to wriggle out of paying..."

 

Complete cobblers from another poster who has no idea how insurance companies operate.

Well, there are good ones and not so good ones. Businesses are kind of like that.

 

Lucky you if you've only had good experiences. I've had some bad experiences of insurance companies trying to renege, and so have lots of other good folk.

 

I haven't heard the term "cobblers" for a long time. Makes me feel homesick ????

Edited April 10, 2023 by sidneybear

[kingstonkid]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"...like Khao Toa".

You'd be safe there (wherever that is) although some people would say that you shouldn't do that in Koh Tao even though 99.9% of visitors never have a problem there, either.

Thanks for the correction on the spelling and the dangers there.

[billd766]

9 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Article is just wrong, easy to get enough travel insurance incl repatriation. Ensure risky activities are included and if riding a motorbike are legal

Of course it is easy to get travel insurance from the UK. However to do so and get the full coverage the tourist MUST read ALL the t&c before signing up, know exactly what activities that they will undertake and not vary from that itenary by one iota.

 

Then add up all the costs and pay for the insurance cover. A good idea would be to get in writing from the insurance company, exactly what they will pay for, and the reasons that that won't pay out for.

 

Then and only then should they pay up for the full monte.

 

However if, on their holiday, they do something that invalidates that insurance, then it is unlikely that the insurance company will cover them.

 

Even something as having a beer, getting on somebody else's motorbike with no helmet and getting injured in an accident.