My firiend wants to buy a beer bar.

[ozimoron]

I have a friend, actually son of a mate of mine who wants to buy a beer bar in Pattaya. I'm thinking maybe around tree town or somewhere along Soi Buahkao (not a ladyboy bar or among them). What is a reasonable price to pay and could he reasonably expect to make 80 to 100k baht a month profit? Soi 6 might be a possibility but I think it's too much for him right now. He's spent a lot of time in the Philippines but not so much in Thailand.

[Boyn]

You know the way to make a small fortune in Thailand is to start off with a big one.

[Kenny202]

I think the glory days of the bars have gone 15 years ago talking to people I know that have had them, and even then it was a tough gig. Maybe 1 out of 10 barely profitable aka break even, and the very few that were moderately profitable. How many bars would there be in Pattaya? And many of the successful ones a lot more knowhow and capital than a bar opened / run by a newb. Would have to be exceptional. I imagine. Most blokes I know opened bars and failed thought it was a business the knew about....aka grog and ho's. Being an alco unfortunately doesnt qualify you to run a business

Edited May 1, 2023 by Kenny202

[Mentors65]

Good luck... 

[steven100]

just what Thailand needs ..  another bar.   I give him 6 months ,   but hey'  good luck  !

[Mac Mickmanus]

Your Firi end may encounter numerous problems 

[Hummin]

Just curious, have he run a bar before, how well does he know the bar culture in Thailand, and do he know Pattaya? Buying in as a partner to learn how to run a bar in Pattaya is risky, but still a good way to learn the structure, hidden rules and laws and risk less.  

 

Good luck

[KannikaP]

15 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

and could he reasonably expect to make 80 to 100k baht a month profit?

Depends on the size of the place, but to make Bht 3000 A DAY PROFIT, after rent, wages, overheads, electricity, water, insurances!!!!  etc etc, I very much doubt it.

And also depends on how much of the profits HE is going to sup.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Depends on the size of the place, but to make Bht 3000 A DAY PROFIT, after rent, wages, overheads, electricity, water, insurances!!!!  etc etc, I very much doubt it.

And also depends on how much of the profits HE is going to sup.

 

How many beers would you need to sell to make 3000 Baht per day profit ?

[Lemsta69]

6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

How many beers would you need to sell to make 3000 Baht per day profit ?

3000? ????

[Kwasaki]

29 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

He's spent a lot of time in the Philippines but not so much in Thailand.

I'm surprised you are asking, unless you are friends with the Chief of police in Pattaya to help him. 

[Hummin]

16 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

How many beers would you need to sell to make 3000 Baht per day profit ?

Reasonable profit pr unit should be before cost 50% 

 

So his monthly rent is 80k

Staff 100k

Electricity 20k

Insurance 5% of turnover Normally 10 - 30 k a month depending on season and of course size of bar

Investment downpay 5% a year

Reserve to pay new tv, freedge and everything that you did not think about as well time to pay bills while waiting to gain a proper group of returning well paying customers. 

 

The biggest problem is to find loyal staff who stays with you

 

 

 

Then you can start calculate profit and how much beer you have to sell. 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Hummin

[ozimoron]

I know what the problems and pitfalls are, I was just fishing for some inside lane on reasonable monthly profit or gross income after capex. How marginal are these bars? And what are typical rents and entry prices?

Edited May 1, 2023 by ozimoron

[Walker88]

I hope he can crunch numbers.

I hope he knows how to market his business

Unless he's American, I hope he knows Thai people he can trust 100%

 

Numbers: He's going to have rent, staff, social security, VAT, electricity, water, CGS, maintenance & repair, computerized point-of-sales system, licenses (alcohol, music, food), accounting firm, insurance, even a sign tax....all of which add up quickly. He'll also have forced days off, like Buddha Days and election days. What's his price point? Does he even know the wholesale cost of bottle and draught beer and spirits? He also has to factor in acquisition cost and any renovations he plans to do.

 

Marketing: Why is his business different? Is he Mr Socialable? Will he employ the most beautiful cashier on Buddha's Green Earth? Will he pay up for a killer sound system and play the sort of music that drinkers want to hear? If he is just selling cold beer, big deal. Why is his shop more fun to hang around than his competitors' shops or the steps of a 7-11?

 

If he's American, he can own under the Treaty of Amity, allowing him 100% control. If not, 49% is his limit, with Thais making up other owners/directors. He will need to hire 4 Thai workers for every foreigner he employs, which means at least 4 (assuming he's a foreigner). He'll also need a Work Permit, even if he's just a Director or Investor, and he'll need a Non-B Business Visa.

 

I might not know the specific costs involved in bars, but I do have an idea about other costs/hassles that come with owning any business in Thailand. If I was to guess, I'd say precious few bars in Pattaya are profitable.

 

If he's realistic, has a sharp pencil and a good spreadsheet, and a novel idea, perhaps he can break even. Odds are quite long, however.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Walker88

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I hope he can crunch numbers.

I hope he knows how to market his business

Unless he's American, I hope he knows Thai people he can trust 100%

 

Numbers: He's going to have rent, staff, social security, VAT, electricity, water, CGS, maintenance & repair, licenses (alcohol, music, food), accounting firm, insurance, even a sign tax....all of which add up quickly. He'll also have forced days off, like Buddha Days and election days. What's his price point? Does he even know the wholesale cost of bottle and draught beer and spirits? He also has to factor in acquisition cost and any renovations he plans to do.

 

Marketing: Why is his business different? Is he Mr Socialable? Will he employ the most beautiful cashier on Buddha's Green Earth? Will he pay up for a killer sound system and play the sort of music that drinkers want to hear? If he is just selling cold beer, big deal. Why is his shop more fun to hang around than his competitors' shops or the steps of a 7-11?

 

If he's American, he can own under the Treaty of Amity, allowing him 100% control. If not, 49% is his limit, with Thais making up other owners/directors. He will need to hire 4 Thai workers for every foreigner he employs, which means at least 4 (assuming he's a foreigner). He'll also need a Work Permit, even if he's just a Director or Investor, and he'll need a Non-B Business Visa.

 

I might not know the specific costs involved in bars, but I do have an idea about other costs/hassles that come with owning any business in Thailand. If I was to guess, I'd say precious few bars in Pattaya are profitable.

 

If he's realistic, has a sharp pencil and a good spreadsheet, and a novel idea, perhaps he can break even. Odds are quite long, however.

All of that is under control and pretty much known. As I said, I'm really only interested in typical gross income and purchase / rental prices. Nothing else at all. I've run bars and been close to others who have also but not lately and not Pattaya beer bars. Again, not looking for general advice, just the top numbers. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by ozimoron

[4MyEgo]

I just don't get guys who want to open up bars to make a 100k baht a month.

 

For one, your stuck there, you have staff wages to pay, brown envelopes and all the headaches that go with it.

 

I have been trading on the stock market with 4 million baht for over 5 years now, I buy when the stocks I know are low and sell when they are slightly up, sometimes they open way up so it's a bonus to me, that said, I make 100k baht a month, you do the math on the return, it's crazy, that said, I buy no less than 1,250,000 baht of stock at a time.

 

The above said, I have no staff to pay, no brown envelopes and zero headaches to deal with, and I visit my local bar 3 times a week.

 

Self taught, and NEVER ever thought of buying a business in Thailand, let alone anywhere else, why would I, this way, I pay no tax and if a particular stock that I know declines, I wait for it to come back up.

 

Owing  beer garden or a bar in my opinion, is only for fools. Your friend should look at other alternatives, know too many farangs who have failed in business in Thailand, but each to their own.  

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I hope he can crunch numbers.

I hope he knows how to market his business

Unless he's American, I hope he knows Thai people he can trust 100%

 

Numbers: He's going to have rent, staff, social security, VAT, electricity, water, CGS, maintenance & repair, computerized point-of-sales system, licenses (alcohol, music, food), accounting firm, insurance, even a sign tax....all of which add up quickly. He'll also have forced days off, like Buddha Days and election days. What's his price point? Does he even know the wholesale cost of bottle and draught beer and spirits? He also has to factor in acquisition cost and any renovations he plans to do.

 

Marketing: Why is his business different? Is he Mr Socialable? Will he employ the most beautiful cashier on Buddha's Green Earth? Will he pay up for a killer sound system and play the sort of music that drinkers want to hear? If he is just selling cold beer, big deal. Why is his shop more fun to hang around than his competitors' shops or the steps of a 7-11?

 

If he's American, he can own under the Treaty of Amity, allowing him 100% control. If not, 49% is his limit, with Thais making up other owners/directors. He will need to hire 4 Thai workers for every foreigner he employs, which means at least 4 (assuming he's a foreigner). He'll also need a Work Permit, even if he's just a Director or Investor, and he'll need a Non-B Business Visa.

 

I might not know the specific costs involved in bars, but I do have an idea about other costs/hassles that come with owning any business in Thailand. If I was to guess, I'd say precious few bars in Pattaya are profitable.

 

If he's realistic, has a sharp pencil and a good spreadsheet, and a novel idea, perhaps he can break even. Odds are quite long, however.

I assume most soi 6 bars have to be better than break even or would not exist? Are they all hobby bars?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

I just don't get guys who want to open up bars to make a 100k baht a month.

 

For one, your stuck there, you have staff wages to pay, brown envelopes and all the headaches that go with it.

 

I have been trading on the stock market with 4 million baht for over 5 years now, I buy when the stocks I know are low and sell when they are slightly up, sometimes they open way up so it's a bonus to me, that said, I make 100k baht a month, you do the math on the return, it's crazy, that said, I buy no less than 1,250,000 baht of stock at a time.

 

The above said, I have no staff to pay, no brown envelopes and zero headaches to deal with, and I visit my local bar 3 times a week.

 

Self taught, and NEVER ever thought of buying a business in Thailand, let alone anywhere else, why would I, this way, I pay no tax and if a particular stock that I know declines, I wait for it to come back up.

 

Owing  beer garden or a bar in my opinion, is only for fools. Your friend should look at other alternatives, know too many farangs who have failed in business in Thailand, but each to their own.  

He's not the type who can trade stocks. Not interested in opinions, just the numbers.

[bkk6060]

I always wanted to open a bar so I could interview potential staff. You know, like those couch audition videos.

 

Anyway, It is probably a great investment should make good money, I would suggest to him that he buy 2 bars.

Edited May 1, 2023 by bkk6060

[Kwasaki]

17 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Reasonable profit pr unit should be before cost 50% 

 

So his monthly rent is 80k

Staff 100k

Electricity 20k

Insurance 5% of turnover Normally 10 - 30 k a month depending on season and of course size of bar

Investment downpay 5% a year

Reserve to pay new tv, freedge and everything that you did not think about as well time to pay bills while waiting to gain a proper group of returning well paying customers. 

 

The biggest problem is to find loyal staff who stays with you

 

 

 

Then you can start calculate profit and how much beer you have to sell. 

 

 

The biggest problem is brown envelope size. 

My advice once was unless your Thai forget it.

[transam]

11 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I know what the problems and pitfalls are, I was just fishing for some inside lane on reasonable monthly profit or gross income after capex. How marginal are these bars? And what are typical rents and entry prices?

If I were you, I wouldn't get involved and keep quiet................

[sambum]

A few years ago, someone asked virtually the same question of an elderly ex pat American "firi end" of mine:- 

"Hey, Fred, I'm thinking of buying a bar here. How much do you think I should spend?"

 

And Fred replied "Well, man, it depends on how much you can afford to lose!"

 

Sometimes old is wise!!!

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

It is a great investment should make good money, I would suggest to him that he buy 2 bars.

How about if you don't own a bar or have a good mate who owns a bar don't waste your time replying.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

The biggest problem is brown envelope size. 

My advice once was unless your Thai forget it.

Many farangs have financial interests in bars.

[AhFarangJa]

32 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

How many beers would you need to sell to make 3000 Baht per day profit ?

Around 600 beers, giving you have a 50 Baht mark up. But then you have to take out running costs, so it is not really a profit. 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Many farangs have financial interests in bars.

Many farangy's have gone down the pan with their dosh getting involved with beer bars....????

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Many farangy's have gone down the pan with their dosh getting involved with beer bars....????

I'm well aware of that but if it was true of all bars there would be no bars. Nobody's charging into a big spend with the wool pulled over their eyes.

[Goat]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

If I were you, I wouldn't get involved and keep quiet................

Great imput mate. Very helpful as always.

[sambum]

49 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

I think the glory days of the bars have gone 15 years ago talking to people I know that have had them, and even then it was a tough gig. Maybe 1 out of 10 barely profitable aka break even, and the very few that were moderately profitable. How many bars would there be in Pattaya? And many of the successful ones a lot more knowhow and capital than a bar opened / run by a newb. Would have to be exceptional. I imagine. Most blokes I know opened bars and failed thought it was a business the knew about....aka grog and ho's. Being an alco unfortunately doesnt qualify you to run a business

"Maybe 1 out of 10 barely profitable aka break even......"   Note: - "AKA" = "Also Known As"                                                             "AFAIK" = "As Far As I Know"

Signed :- "MDGP" (Modern Day Grammar Police"! ???? 

[richard_smith237]

25 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Reasonable profit pr unit should be before cost 50% 

 

So his monthly rent is 80k

Staff 100k

Electricity 20k

Insurance 5% of turnover Normally 10 - 30 k a month depending on season and of course size of bar

Investment downpay 5% a year

Reserve to pay new tv, freedge and everything that you did not think about as well time to pay bills while waiting to gain a proper group of returning well paying customers. 

 

The biggest problem is to find loyal staff who stays with you

 

Then you can start calculate profit and how much beer you have to sell. 

 

I think yours are reasonable estimated numbers: 

Rent: 80k

Staff: 100k

Electricity: 20k

TeaMoney: 50k

 

Total 250,000 Baht per month. 

Beer at 100 Baht / 50 Baht profit per beer ?

 

Without any other incidentals (as mentioned above - including startup costs of TV’s, Fridge, furniture etc)...  5000 beers per month would need to be sold...  That 166 per day. 

 

Is it possible for a smallish bar to sell 166 beers per day, every day ???...  And thats just to break even.

 

Then of course is the humdinger - Key money !!... 

 

 

You wanted numbers, you have very rough estimates above... You didn’t want advice but really, threads such as this are like catnip to those with any slight sense of cynicism...  Its like asking... “I’ve meet Nong in the pink pussy cat, she’s the cashier and has been working there for 2 weeks, we want to get married and buy a house, what documents do I need?”....  and then telling the forum you don't want opinions !!!...