Nigel Farage: ‘Brexit has failed’

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

I voted for Brexit but sadly I have no vote left in the UK though it is supposedly being restored this year. Over 15 years out of the UK and lose your right to vote.

 

Certainly strange if you have a UK passport.

 

But I see Starmer wants let EU aliens vote in GE's if they live in the UK. 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

I voted for Brexit but sadly I have no vote left in the UK though it is supposedly being restored this year. Over 15 years out of the UK and lose your right to vote.

 

Imo 15 years is way too long for non-resident UK nationals to be permitted to vote in local/ national elections. I would reduce it to a maximum of 5 years.

 

Depending on the subject, I do think that referendums are different. This is not directed at you personally of course, but it does (still) grate with me that that British ex-pats living in non-EU countries, who had been away from the UK for less than 15 years, got to have a say in the Brexit referendum whereas someone like myself, who was directly affected by the result, did not (I had been living in Belgium for 17 years at the time). 

 

Never let it be said that I pass up an opportunity to have a rant about voter eligibility for the Brexit referendum.

[RayC]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Certainly strange if you have a UK passport.

 

But I see Starmer wants let EU aliens vote in GE's if they live in the UK. 

Why should non-residents be allowed to vote in local/ national UK elections? These elections are predominantly fought on domestic issues which (largely) don't affect non-residents. By the same token, imo resident aliens have a strong claim to be given a vote.

[dunroaming]

On 5/17/2023 at 2:25 AM, bendejo said:

 

No, we didn't forget.

 

 

Of course brexit has failed.  It could never have done anything else.  It was based on lies so how could it ever been a success.  And yet the people responsible for those lies and deceit are still ruling the country today but with a different set of lies and deceit.  The only chance the tories have of staying in power is with a complete clear-out of the top table, especially Johnson, Gove, Sunak, Braverman, Patel, Shapps etc. etc.

 

Do it now or we end up with a Labour/Lib dem coalition.  The Tories have lost all credibility, nobody believes a word they say!

[billd766]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

A whole lot more than has happened since 2016.

 

I did expect problems with customs etc at the channel ports.

 

I had hoped that so many EU rules and regulations  would have been swept away in the last 9 years but that hasn't happened..

 

I didn't expect the fiasco at the NI borders that is going on now.

 

As for treaties from different countries, that has always been a 2 way thing.

 

I always expected problems from the EU and am not surprised so far.

 

As for Tory PMs and politicians, very little surprises me with that bunch of spineless wimps.

 

I am surprised and saddened by the attitude of France and illegal immigrants, and the UK government though, I should not have been. 

 

All in all I am disappointed with Brexit, but I cannot do anything about it.

 

Please accept my apologies for the was I listed this. It is the way my mind is a bit scrambled up these last few months.

 

I think of something, write it down, think of something else and write that down and repeat it several times. Look at it, change bits of several and then just shove it out.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Certainly strange if you have a UK passport.

 

But I see Starmer wants let EU aliens vote in GE's if they live in the UK. 

Not really. The 15 year rule has been on the books for many years but not many people bothered.

 

Another rule that has been around for many years is that HMRC WILL grab any income that THEY deem as UK based and tax it.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

Imo 15 years is way too long for non-resident UK nationals to be permitted to vote in local/ national elections. I would reduce it to a maximum of 5 years.

 

Depending on the subject, I do think that referendums are different. This is not directed at you personally of course, but it does (still) grate with me that that British ex-pats living in non-EU countries, who had been away from the UK for less than 15 years, got to have a say in the Brexit referendum whereas someone like myself, who was directly affected by the result, did not (I had been living in Belgium for 17 years at the time). 

 

Never let it be said that I pass up an opportunity to have a rant about voter eligibility for the Brexit referendum.

Working on that theory as soon as I lose my vote living abroad I should no longer have to pay UK income tax on my pensions.

 

A rally cry from a couple of centuries ago.

 

NO taxation without representation.

 

Does that sound familiar?

 

If you are taking a proportion of my pensions to fund items in the UK, WHY shouldn't I be allowed a vote?

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by billd766
added extra text

[herfiehandbag]

On 5/17/2023 at 2:57 PM, Drumbuie said:

37.5% of the electorate and a very narrow majority of those who voted voted to Leave in a referendum that was sold to the House of Commons as "advisory" . There was no White Paper explaining what would happen. There was no proper discussion of the full consequences. So a narrow majority voted Leave without the slightest idea of what it entailed.
Let me remind you that when the Scottish electorate voted for devolution in 1979, it was disallowed as it did not represent 40% of the electorate. Why was this not applicable to the UK electorate in a decision with far greater consequences?

It was a bit more than the referendum majority though wasn't it - there was the large majority in the December 2019 General Election, which was effectively fought on Brexit.

 

I do understand that the election result is an inconvenient truth when you argue that the Brexit Referendum gave no mandate for actually enacting Brexit ( other than the clear majority of votes across the UK in a poll with a remarkably large turnout). The canard that it was " only advisory", well that duck was shot by both government (Cameron) and opposition announcing that they would abide by it. The Liberal Democrats stood on the platform that the referendum should be ignored, and look at what happened to them!

 

I have strong reservations about Farage, particularly when he transfers his attention and commentary to the US political scene, but on this he is quite right, the Tories have failed on Brexit. They had the tool and the mandate to make a much better fist of it than they have, faffed around on the fringes and failed dismally.

Edited May 18, 2023 by herfiehandbag

[candide]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

It was a bit more than the referendum majority though wasn't it - there was the large majority in the December 2019 General Election, which was effectively fought on Brexit.

 

I do understand that the election result is an inconvenient truth when you argue that the Brexit Referendum gave no mandate for actually enacting Brexit ( other than the clear majority of votes across the UK in a poll with a remarkably large turnout). The canard that it was " only advisory", well that duck was shot by both government (Cameron) and opposition announcing that they would abide by it. The Liberal Democrats stood on the platform that the referendum should be ignored, and look at what happened to them!

 

I have strong reservations about Farage, particularly when he transfers his attention and commentary to the US political scene, but on this he is quite right, the Tories have failed on Brexit. They had the tool and the mandate to make a much better fist of it than they have, faffed around on the fringes and failed dismally.

He's right to state that the Tories failed. However, opinions may diverge about why they failed. How would a Brexit "à la Farage" have fared? Better or worse?

Edited May 18, 2023 by candide

[billd766]

24 minutes ago, candide said:

He's right to state that the Tories failed. However, opinions may diverge about why they failed. How would a Brexit "à la Farage" have fared? Better or worse?

That is something that nobody will ever know, and something we we can only speculate about.

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

I have strong reservations about Farage, particularly when he transfers his attention and commentary to the US political scene, but on this he is quite right, the Tories have failed on Brexit. They had the tool and the mandate to make a much better fist of it than they have, faffed around on the fringes and failed dismally.

The Tories are useless and despicable and they need to go next year. But saying Brexit is a failure because of them sounds like an excuse to me. Brexit was doomed to be a failure from the start but those concerns were labelled "project fear" and dismissed.

For me the Tories are to blame 100%, but only because they called the referendum in the first place for their own selfish interests. It is pretty clear to me that deep down they never expected Leave to win, but when there was a sniff of it people like Johnson switched sides and switched allegiance immediately, again purely to suit their own agenda and ambitions. Add then the Russian influence and Cambridge Analytica and it was game over. And here we are. And most of the "Project fear" concerns have come true.

It should also be noted that Farage is/was only in it for himself too right from the off. He's another despicable human that shouldn't be given column inches. Same as Christopher Yaxley-Lennon and all the other human detritus that made themselves a lot of money by whipping up the xenophobes / racists - only ever in it for themselves. So for him to come out and say Brexit would have been great but the Tories have messed it up is ridiculous, Brexit itself is the cause of our problems and nothing else.

Edited May 18, 2023 by josephbloggs

[RayC]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

Working on that theory as soon as I lose my vote living abroad I should no longer have to pay UK income tax on my pensions.

 

A rally cry from a couple of centuries ago.

 

NO taxation without representation.

 

Does that sound familiar?

 

If you are taking a proportion of my pensions to fund items in the UK, WHY shouldn't I be allowed a vote?

 

That's a reasonable (and reasoned) argument. However, if you are a resident of Thailand, then imo that's where your UK pension should be taxed (and where you should be permitted to vote: I accept that this is unlikely to occur anytime soon).

 

I know that pensions are (usually) a product of income earned in an individual's home country, but expats benefit from the services provided by their host countries and imo they should contribute financially for their provision.

[Seppius]

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

The Tories are useless and despicable and they need to go next year. But saying Brexit is a failure because of them sounds like an excuse to me. Brexit was doomed to be a failure from the start but those concerns were labelled "project fear" and dismissed.

For me the Tories are to blame 100%, but only because they called the referendum in the first place for their own selfish interests. It is pretty clear to me that deep down they never expected Leave to win, but when there was a sniff of it people like Johnson switched sides and switched allegiance immediately, again purely to suit their own agenda and ambitions. Add then the Russian influence and Cambridge Analytica and it was game over. And here we are. And most of the "Project fear" concerns have come true.

It should also be noted that Farage is/was only in it for himself too right from the off. He's another despicable human that shouldn't be given column inches. Same as Christopher Yaxley-Lennon and all the other human detritus that made themselves a lot of money by whipping up the xenophobes / racists - only ever in it for themselves. So for him to come out and say Brexit would have been great but the Tories have messed it up is ridiculous, Brexit itself is the cause of our problems and nothing else.

So who do you want to lead the country?

 

[josephbloggs]

20 minutes ago, Seppius said:

So who do you want to lead the country?

 

Good question. No one who is racist, right wing, who lies, who is out for his/her own ends, who serves the rich at the expense of the poor, someone who will protect the NHS rather than dismantle it (along with other public services).

I am no great fan but Starmer probably seems the best of a bad bunch at the moment - he is not very inspirational though but comes across as decent and honest and has values. So out of the current crop on offer he would be my choice.

[billd766]

59 minutes ago, RayC said:

That's a reasonable (and reasoned) argument. However, if you are a resident of Thailand, then imo that's where your UK pension should be taxed (and where you should be permitted to vote: I accept that this is unlikely to occur anytime soon).

 

I know that pensions are (usually) a product of income earned in an individual's home country, but expats benefit from the services provided by their host countries and imo they should contribute financially for their provision.

Though I live in Thailand and have done for many years, I am not a resident of Thailand. I am non resident in the UK also but HMRC still collects income tax on my pensions whilst (at this point in time) the UK government does not allow me to vote.

 

In Thailand as a non resident I cannot vote and receive nothing from the Thai government in the way of a pension (700 thb per month) and neither does my wife.

 

AFAIR my wife got no child allowance for raising our son from Thailand, and I know we got nothing from the UK.

 

The only benefits that I get from Thailand are cheaper medical bills (but more expensive than Thais) because I am registered at the local government hospital.

[youreavinalaff]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 receive nothing from the Thai government in the way of a pension (700 thb per month) and neither does my wife

 

AFAIR my wife got no child allowance for raising our son from Thailand, and I know we got nothing from the UK.

 

The only benefits that I get from Thailand are cheaper medical bills (but more expensive than Thais) because I am registered at the local government hospital.

Why does your wife not receive any pension?

 

Child allowance from both countries would have been available.

 

Have a word with your hospital. I have never paid more than Thais would.

Edited May 18, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[RayC]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

Though I live in Thailand and have done for many years, I am not a resident of Thailand. I am non resident in the UK also but HMRC still collects income tax on my pensions whilst (at this point in time) the UK government does not allow me to vote.

 

In Thailand as a non resident I cannot vote and receive nothing from the Thai government in the way of a pension (700 thb per month) and neither does my wife.

 

AFAIR my wife got no child allowance for raising our son from Thailand, and I know we got nothing from the UK.

 

The only benefits that I get from Thailand are cheaper medical bills (but more expensive than Thais) because I am registered at the local government hospital.

I should have been more exact and said 'resident for tax purposes'. I believe Thailand has the same (basic) determinant for tax residency as the UK i.e. that you are tax resident if you spend more than 183 days/year in the country. 

 

You say that you receive no benefits from Thailand but what about the emergency services, government departments, government investment in infrastructure, etc? People might complain about the quality of the services and/or claim that they do not benefit from them personally but theses services still need to be provided and paid for.

[Chomper Higgot]

20 hours ago, billd766 said:

A whole lot more than has happened since 2016.

 

I did expect problems with customs etc at the channel ports.

 

I had hoped that so many EU rules and regulations  would have been swept away in the last 9 years but that hasn't happened..

 

I didn't expect the fiasco at the NI borders that is going on now.

 

As for treaties from different countries, that has always been a 2 way thing.

 

I always expected problems from the EU and am not surprised so far.

 

As for Tory PMs and politicians, very little surprises me with that bunch of spineless wimps.

 

I am surprised and saddened by the attitude of France and illegal immigrants, and the UK government though, I should not have been. 

 

All in all I am disappointed with Brexit, but I cannot do anything about it.

 

I’ve been asking Brexit supporters which particular so called ‘EU’ laws and regulations they want to see removed and why.

 

Perhaps you can give some examples, no other Brexiteer ever does.

 

 

[billd766]

11 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Why does your wife not receive any pension?

 

Child allowance from both countries would have been available.

 

Have a word with your hospital. I have never paid more than Thais would.

1   Why WOULD my wife receive a pension?

 

She has never lived or worked in the UK. When she worked in Thailand before we married. it was informal work with no tax paid or pension benefits. When she worked for herself after we married she was working informally with no pension benefits.

 

2   https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-abroad#:~:text=You can get Child Benefit if you're a Crown,UK for a posting abroad.

 

You can get Child Benefit if you’re a Crown servant working anywhere outside the UK - whether or not your child lives with you. Before you were posted abroad you must have been either living in or posted to the UK.

 

If you are NOT a crown servant you are not entitled to Child Benefit. offshore. There is more detail in the link.

 

3   The rate I pay at the state hospital is 50 baht per visit to the doctor, plus the cost of the medicine.

 

I should not need to tell you any of this, as the information is freely available through the internet if you want to look it up.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

1   Why WOULD my wife receive a pension?

 

She has never lived or worked in the UK. When she worked in Thailand before we married. it was informal work with no tax paid or pension benefits. When she worked for herself after we married she was working informally with no pension benefits.

 

2   https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-abroad#:~:text=You can get Child Benefit if you're a Crown,UK for a posting abroad.

 

You can get Child Benefit if you’re a Crown servant working anywhere outside the UK - whether or not your child lives with you. Before you were posted abroad you must have been either living in or posted to the UK.

 

If you are NOT a crown servant you are not entitled to Child Benefit. offshore. There is more detail in the link.

 

3   The rate I pay at the state hospital is 50 baht per visit to the doctor, plus the cost of the medicine.

 

I should not need to tell you any of this, as the information is freely available through the internet if you want to look it up.

 

 

I personally advise never ever introducing your wife, children, family or anyone you care about into any discussion on this forum.

[Jeff the Chef]

16 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

Good question. No one who is racist, right wing, who lies, who is out for his/her own ends, who serves the rich at the expense of the poor, someone who will protect the NHS rather than dismantle it (along with other public services).

I am no great fan but Starmer probably seems the best of a bad bunch at the moment - he is not very inspirational though but comes across as decent and honest and has values. So out of the current crop on offer he would be my choice.

Labour had the ideal candidate before the MSM and backstabbing Starmer got the job but now we'll never know.

[James105]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve been asking Brexit supporters which particular so called ‘EU’ laws and regulations they want to see removed and why.

 

Perhaps you can give some examples, no other Brexiteer ever does.

 

 

I don't think you will ever understand why people voted for it and looking for micro reasons such as specific EU laws that individual people wanted to see removed is probably not very helpful, and only serves to make the asker of such an inane question feel superior.

 

People voted for change.   They were fed up with the way the country was being run (for whatever reason) and that referendum gave them the single opportunity they will ever see in their lifetimes where (theoretically) their vote counted for something.   Voting for Labour/Tory is a vote for more of the same, whereas the referendum was.... different.   The fact that neither establishment party wanted it, or were willing to implement any kind of radical change despite being given a mandate in 2019 to enact those kind of changes is not the fault of people who voted for it, nor for that matter, who campaigned for it.   

 

Was it a mistake to leave the EU if nothing was actually going to change and the UK would still be tied into the EU regardless without making some kind of radical change?  Yes.   If radical changes could have been made (such as massively reducing business taxes and VAT to encourage investment/jobs, or actually reducing net inwards migration to the level of the 90s) then maybe it would have been a success.   Sadly, we will never know.  

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

1   Why WOULD my wife receive a pension?

 

She has never lived or worked in the UK. When she worked in Thailand before we married. it was informal work with no tax paid or pension benefits. When she worked for herself after we married she was working informally with no pension benefits.

 

2   https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-abroad#:~:text=You can get Child Benefit if you're a Crown,UK for a posting abroad.

 

You can get Child Benefit if you’re a Crown servant working anywhere outside the UK - whether or not your child lives with you. Before you were posted abroad you must have been either living in or posted to the UK.

 

If you are NOT a crown servant you are not entitled to Child Benefit. offshore. There is more detail in the link.

 

3   The rate I pay at the state hospital is 50 baht per visit to the doctor, plus the cost of the medicine.

 

I should not need to tell you any of this, as the information is freely available through the internet if you want to look it up.

 

 

You referred to your wife not receiving 700 baht Thai pension. There is no requirement to have paid in to get out.

 

The rate for hospital visit is 30 baht. That's what I pay. If I go to the local " Anamai" clinic it's free.

 

How old is your child now? I know of a couple of guys who received child benefits from both UK and Thailand. Personally I did not as, like you, I was unaware that I could claim.

Edited May 19, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[candide]

40 minutes ago, James105 said:

I don't think you will ever understand why people voted for it and looking for micro reasons such as specific EU laws that individual people wanted to see removed is probably not very helpful, and only serves to make the asker of such an inane question feel superior.

 

People voted for change.   They were fed up with the way the country was being run (for whatever reason) and that referendum gave them the single opportunity they will ever see in their lifetimes where (theoretically) their vote counted for something.   Voting for Labour/Tory is a vote for more of the same, whereas the referendum was.... different.   The fact that neither establishment party wanted it, or were willing to implement any kind of radical change despite being given a mandate in 2019 to enact those kind of changes is not the fault of people who voted for it, nor for that matter, who campaigned for it.   

 

Was it a mistake to leave the EU if nothing was actually going to change and the UK would still be tied into the EU regardless without making some kind of radical change?  Yes.   If radical changes could have been made (such as massively reducing business taxes and VAT to encourage investment/jobs, or actually reducing net inwards migration to the level of the 90s) then maybe it would have been a success.   Sadly, we will never know.  

You may be right. I think the only way for Brexit to be successful (from an economic point of view only), would have been to adopt a ultra-liberal and ultra-globalist policy. Of course, from a social point of view, we all know what comes along ultra-liberal policies. I am not sure that would have been the wish of the people who voted for Brexit, in particular of people who felt they were being "left behind".

 

This comment draws back to the origin of the problem, the initial flaw of the referendum: there was no clear project to vote for, leaving an infinite number of options open. People who voted for Brexit, while having in common the will to change you mention, had different concerns and visions of Brexit. At best they were aware of the advantage and drawbacks of their imagined scenario, at worse they were compiling the advantages of different incompatible scenarii, without being aware of any drawback.

 

Under such circumstances, no wonder the people who voted for Brexit may diverge as to what Brexit should have been (or should be in the future).

 

 

[dunroaming]

22 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

It was a bit more than the referendum majority though wasn't it - there was the large majority in the December 2019 General Election, which was effectively fought on Brexit.

 

I do understand that the election result is an inconvenient truth when you argue that the Brexit Referendum gave no mandate for actually enacting Brexit ( other than the clear majority of votes across the UK in a poll with a remarkably large turnout). The canard that it was " only advisory", well that duck was shot by both government (Cameron) and opposition announcing that they would abide by it. The Liberal Democrats stood on the platform that the referendum should be ignored, and look at what happened to them!

 

I have strong reservations about Farage, particularly when he transfers his attention and commentary to the US political scene, but on this he is quite right, the Tories have failed on Brexit. They had the tool and the mandate to make a much better fist of it than they have, faffed around on the fringes and failed dismally.

It is true that the last general election was a massive endorsement  for Johnson's interpretation of what Brexit would bring.  But they were all lies and people chose to believe those lies ( at the time).  Eventually the lies start to be exposed and that has resulted in the massive losses the Conservatives just suffered in the Local elections that have just been held.

 

Nobody likes to admit that they were sold a pup and amazingly there are still some people STILL in denial!  

[youreavinalaff]

27 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

It is true that the last general election was a massive endorsement  for Johnson's interpretation of what Brexit would bring.  But they were all lies and people chose to believe those lies ( at the time).  Eventually the lies start to be exposed and that has resulted in the massive losses the Conservatives just suffered in the Local elections that have just been held.

 

Nobody likes to admit that they were sold a pup and amazingly there are still some people STILL in denial!  

It's not quite as simple as all that though, is it?

 

There were too many MPs not doing their job. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents. Too many voted on Brexit matters according to their own views. Hence delays in deals and decisions. That was a major issue.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

You referred to your wife not receiving 700 baht Thai pension. There is no requirement to have paid in to get out.

 

The rate for hospital visit is 30 baht. That's what I pay. If I go to the local " Anamai" clinic it's free.

 

How old is your child now? I know of a couple of guys who received child benefits from both UK and Thailand. Personally I did not as, like you, I was unaware that I could claim.

Actually I referred to me at 78 not receiving a Thai state pension and not to my wife as she is 57 and not entitled to a Thai state pension yet.

 

I am quite happy to pay 50 baht for the doctors fee at the hospital as I know that I will be seen in a reasonable time, often by the same doctor and that any doctor I see will speak English.

 

My son is now 18 and off to Uni at Chiang Rai in August. I did not expect any child benefit for him here anyway so I was not disappointed.

[billd766]

23 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

It's not quite as simple as all that though, is it?

 

There were too many MPs not doing their job. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents. Too many voted on Brexit matters according to their own views. Hence delays in deals and decisions. That was a major issue.

Sadly there is no MP for expats alone so we have to go through the MP at the last place we voted in the UK. Those MPs have no interest in us at all.

[youreavinalaff]

20 hours ago, billd766 said:

In Thailand as a non resident I cannot vote and receive nothing from the Thai government in the way of a pension (700 thb per month) and neither does my wife.

 

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Actually I referred to me at 78 not receiving a Thai state pension and not to my wife as she is 57 and not entitled to a Thai state pension yet.

What about the above?

[youreavinalaff]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Sadly there is no MP for expats alone so we have to go through the MP at the last place we voted in the UK. Those MPs have no interest in us at all.

Hence my use of the word " constituents".