Same sex marriage and marriage visa, will it be possible?

[onthedarkside]

An inflammatory post reported/removed along with a reply

[n00dle]

14 hours ago, JoseThailand said:

Why would they make it harder than a normal marriage? 

they wont make it harder - on purpose. 

That doesnt mean it wont be an absolute cluster<deleted> becuse nobody has considered the practicalites. 

 

Then there is a the small issue of a group of recalcitrant snetors waiting to put the old regime back in power.

Edited June 6, 2023 by n00dle

[Myran]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Premature. 

We don't have marriage equality yet.

Even when that eventually happens it isn't a given they will allow Thai to foreign marriages at all.

It's interesting that people seem to be viewing this from a heterocentric POV. Interesting but not surprising.

Yeah, <deleted> heterocentric, bigotted, vile, neo-nazi dumbasses such as myself, for making an observation based on a potentially positive outcome.

 

I've learned my lesson and will stay the hell away from commenting on anything regarding homosexuality. Thank you, Jingthing, for gatekeeping these topics and making sure only the right people are allowed to have an opinion and comment.

[Preacher]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

No it's about marriage rights.

No marriage rights no immigration issues.

You have a valid complaint though of course.

Thai male marreid to foreign male would not have to show any income for an extension, Thai female married to a foreign female the foreign female would have to show an income of at least 40,000 a year. That would be the requirements under the current immigration rules for people who are married to a Thai national.

 

 

[Jingthing]

51 minutes ago, Myran said:

Yeah, <deleted> heterocentric, bigotted, vile, neo-nazi dumbasses such as myself, for making an observation based on a potentially positive outcome.

 

I've learned my lesson and will stay the hell away from commenting on anything regarding homosexuality. Thank you, Jingthing, for gatekeeping these topics and making sure only the right people are allowed to have an opinion and comment.

A wildly extreme overreaction  to an observation of fact.

Not saying don't post.

It's understandable that people post based on their experiences.

I didn't call a heterocentric pov homophobia.

I mentioned it as a matter of fact that this actually is a topic about same sex marriage. So seeing so many posts about opposite sex marriage was notable.

I am not the gatekeeper!

Post as you like but realize people might comment on what you posted.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Preacher said:

Thai male marreid to foreign male would not have to show any income for an extension, Thai female married to a foreign female the foreign female would have to show an income of at least 40,000 a year. That would be the requirements under the current immigration rules for people who are married to a Thai national.

 

 

No.

You have no idea what the rules will be or even if they will allow Thai foreign same sex marriages at all!

Edited June 6, 2023 by Jingthing

[Fairynuff]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

We don't know  do we?

 

It’s no secret that he is a great ally of the LGBT community and very supportive of equal marriage. As are the majority of the population.

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No.

You have no idea what the rules will be or even if they will allow Thai foreign same sex marriages at all!

I can see your point about how this could be limited to Thai-Thai same sex marriages & when you think about it that would fulfil their election promise with zero impact on things like immigration policies.

 

Same can’t be said for Thai-Foreign same sex marriages & looking at it impartially it does feel like a lot of work for next to no gains for the government so it wouldn’t be a surprise if they never get around to doing it. 
 

Hoping I’m proved wrong…

 

 

PS I understand your point about taking a heterocentric view & when I read that I thought about my Brother who is in a same sex marriage & neither he nor his spouse have the “Traditional” male or female role so it would be impossible for them to go to Immigration to say “I’m the Husband, He’s the Wife”…

 

It does feel like they’ll have to come up with a completely different take on the Marriage Visa to cater for this, let’s just hope that in their tinkering with the laws they also make it better for existing Marriage Visa holders (unfortunately their track record shows that when it comes to immigration policies, their tinkering normally make things worse) 

 

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

It’s no secret that he is a great ally of the LGBT community and very supportive of equal marriage. As are the majority of the population.

Will he be Thailand's first twunk PM?

[Jingthing]

I will spell this out.

I meant no offense by pointing out that people were posting here from a heterocentric POV.

If you were offended by that, I am sincerely sorry.

[khunPer]

15 hours ago, JoseThailand said:

As the winner Move Forward Party is promising soon same sex marriage legalization, can we expect that it will open a new way for the marriage visa?

Move Forward party also need to win the mandates to form a government before they can legalize same sex marriage. Wait and see until early August if they succeed in that; no one can give you a useful answer before that time.

[Caldera]

26 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No.

You have no idea what the rules will be or even if they will allow Thai foreign same sex marriages at all!

Are there actually any countries that allow same-sex marriage, but only if both spouses are nationals of that very country?

 

Genuine question. At face value, that looks like a very unlikely scenario to me. If and when same-sex marriage arrives in Thailand, they will probably just extend the existing framework.

 

What they might NOT want to allow is letting foreigners who aren't allowed to marry at home marry in Thailand instead. But there's already a framework for that in place, too, as any foreigner who wants to marry in Thailand needs to produce "freedom to marry" documents. 

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Are there actually any countries that allow same-sex marriage, but only if both spouses are nationals of that very country?

 

Genuine question. At face value, that looks like a very unlikely scenario to me. If and when same-sex marriage arrives in Thailand, they will probably just extend the existing framework.

 

What they might NOT want to allow is letting foreigners who aren't allowed to marry at home marry in Thailand instead. But there's already a framework for that in place, too, as any foreigner who wants to marry in Thailand needs to produce "freedom to marry" documents. 

I don't know.

[Liverpool Lou]

16 hours ago, JoseThailand said:

If a foreigner married a Thai ladyboy, isn't it clear that they did this because they love each other, not as an "easy" way to stay in Thailand?

"If a foreigner married a Thai ladyboy, isn't it clear that they did this because they love each other...?

No, that's not clear, at all.

[CharlieH]

Given that this topic has now evolved to be more a discussion in same sex marriage than on the Visa aspect of the title and OP, this can now be moved to "the Pub" for further discussion.

 

MOVED.

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I will spell this out.

I meant no offense by pointing out that people were posting here from a heterocentric POV.

If you were offended by that, I am sincerely sorry.

Just for clarity (as I did mention heterocentric in my post above) I didn't take any offence by your point about taking an heterocentric POV, in fact it made me realise that I was looking at it through that lens & when I thought about it (especially in the context of my brother's life) I realised that it can't simply be looked at in the same way. 

 

No offence taken (or intended) here at all ???? 

[Puccini]

In countries where same sex marriages are possible, does the marriage certificate list one of the two persons as husband or male and the other as wife or female?

 

In Thailand, where currently only marriage of a man and a woman are allowed, the KR.2 lists one person as male (ชาย), the other as female (หญิง) 

Source: https://fiverr-res.cloudinary.com/images/q_auto,f_auto/gigs2/122644347/original/6e34572d6f4dc905474f4e6d2f884a7176e6fe5b/translate-marriage-certificate-from-thai-to-english-for-you.jpg

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, Puccini said:

In countries where same sex marriages are possible, does the marriage certificate list one of the two persons as husband or male and the other as wife or female?

 

In Thailand, where currently only marriage of a man and a woman are allowed, the KR.2 lists one person as male (ชาย), the other as female (หญิง) 

Source: https://fiverr-res.cloudinary.com/images/q_auto,f_auto/gigs2/122644347/original/6e34572d6f4dc905474f4e6d2f884a7176e6fe5b/translate-marriage-certificate-from-thai-to-english-for-you.jpg

When laws change, forms are modified.. Its not rocket science.

[Puccini]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

When laws change, forms are modified.. Its not rocket science.

If your country allows same sex marriages, what word or words are used in lieu of male and female on the marriage certificate?

 

I am curious because I remember reading a news article, some years ago, where one man in a same sex marriage was quoted as complaining that a publication referred to him as husband. This gave me the impression that he wanted to be called the wife. This made me wonder whether in a same sex marriage one person is by law listed as husband and the other as wife in the marriage certificate. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Puccini

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, Puccini said:

If your country allows same sex marriages, what word or words are used in lieu of male and female on the marriage certificate?

 

I am curious because I remember reading a news article, some years ago, where one man in a same sex marriage was quoted as complaining that a publication referred to him as husband. This gave me the impression that he wanted to be called the wife. This made me wonder whether in a same sex marriage one person is by law listed as husband and the other as wife in the marriage certificate. 

No.

[watthong]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

it would be impossible for them to go to Immigration to say “I’m the Husband, He’s the Wife”…

I'm always "slightly" (read royally) pi$$ed off whenverer I heard those hetero-centric labels "He's my wife" or "She's my husband" . Why on earth would gay people want to imitate the straight formula when it comes to marital affairs? As a gay man, I always "flip flop" in bed - sorry I don't want to offend so please do not ask me to elaborate on that term. Therefore how would I label myself "I'm half and half" or I'm "bi" (as in binary, not bisexual)? Or better yet, I'm a "wife-band" - or a "huswf?"

 

If and when I can marry my Thai male partner, I would proudly - and simply introduce him as my (legal) "spouse." I'm not a female, so I'm nobody's wife, and my partner's not married to a female, so he's nobody's husband.

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, watthong said:

I'm always "slightly" (read royally) pi$$ed off whenverer I heard those hetero-centric labels "He's my wife" or "She's my husband" . Why on earth would gay people want to imitate the straight formula when it comes to marital affairs? As a gay man, I always "flip flop" in bed - sorry I don't want to offend so please do not ask me to elaborate on that term. Therefore how would I label myself "I'm half and half" or I'm "bi" (as in binary, not bisexual)? Or better yet, I'm a "wife-band" - or a "huswf?"

 

If and when I can marry my Thai male partner, I would proudly - and simply introduce him as my (legal) "spouse." I'm not a female, so I'm nobody's wife, and my partner's not married to a female, so he's nobody's husband.

I am a little surprised you are touchy about being termed a "husband". I am not in your position, so I might be lacking empathy. However, same sex marriage ceremonies I have seen have always used language like "I now pronounce you husband and husband". Is there something objectionable about a male spouse being called a "husband"?

[crazykopite]

Regretfully I cannot see Move Forward moving forward to many of the old brigade won’t allow it to happen nothing will change it will be the same PM that has been running the show since he took office 

[newnative]

36 minutes ago, Puccini said:

If your country allows same sex marriages, what word or words are used in lieu of male and female on the marriage certificate?

Virginia, in the USA, uses 'Party A' and 'Party B' for name information, and gives each a choice to check 'Bride', 'Groom' or 'Spouse'.

[scottiejohn]

25 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Is there something objectionable about a male spouse being called a "husband"?

Yes!

 

[Brickleberry]

56 minutes ago, watthong said:

I'm always "slightly" (read royally) pi$$ed off whenverer I heard those hetero-centric labels "He's my wife" or "She's my husband" . Why on earth would gay people want to imitate the straight formula when it comes to marital affairs? As a gay man, I always "flip flop" in bed - sorry I don't want to offend so please do not ask me to elaborate on that term. Therefore how would I label myself "I'm half and half" or I'm "bi" (as in binary, not bisexual)? Or better yet, I'm a "wife-band" - or a "huswf?"

 

If and when I can marry my Thai male partner, I would proudly - and simply introduce him as my (legal) "spouse." I'm not a female, so I'm nobody's wife, and my partner's not married to a female, so he's nobody's husband.

I understand your annoyance, but I'm confused about this part: Why on earth would gay people want to imitate the straight formula?

 

It's a very strange question, because marriage has been a conventional formula for straight men and women for thousands of years, and it is something that the LGBTQ community has wanted to imitate for a long, long time - and in some countries around the world, they are now rightly able to get married in churches, synagogues etc. A literal imitation of the ceremony and procedures.  

 

Husband and wife are very old words that mean; master of the house (husband) and woman (wife). I can appreciate that being called a wife as a gay man would be extremely offensive! I am confused why being called a husband would be deemed inappropriate? As language and culture evolves, perhaps these terms will change too.

[Jingthing]

58 minutes ago, newnative said:

Virginia, in the USA, uses 'Party A' and 'Party B' for name information, and gives each a choice to check 'Bride', 'Groom' or 'Spouse'.

Perfect.

[Jingthing]

There is the matter of official forms which might be different to how a couple refers to each other socially. They may or may not be the same.

Keep in mind when we're talking about "same sex" we're talking about LGBTQ people. In general two cisgender gay men would be both husbands or spouses to each other but other people that identify differently may want to use different terms. A straight identified man might marry a transgender woman who has officially changed to female gender -- I would assume they would not want to be husband and husband. I don't think official forms should even try to accommodate all the variations. I like the Virginia example above. Keep it simple. Kiss kiss.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Jingthing

[Mike Teavee]

It was 5-6 years ago but I’m pretty sure my Brother & his spouse were pronounced “Husband & Husband”… 

 

That was their choice, am sure others would prefer something different. 

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

It was 5-6 years ago but I’m pretty sure my Brother & his spouse were pronounced “Husband & Husband”… 

 

That was their choice, am sure others would prefer something different. 

 

That would be typical for two cisgender gay men.