Land ownership

[KayDeeDee]

 Hello  , I have a question about land ownership . I have been married to my Thai wife for some 10 years now .  We own  5 rai  date palm 

   farm with some 60 trees and a small  Cabin on it . It is in the wife's name Obviously and we also have a  Plot of land that we are going to build a new House on .  My Question is  what if something were to happen to my wife , dies  ( God For Bid )  also she has NO Relatives    What happens to the Land ownership  ?   I know i can own the New  House & small cabin , But what about the Land ?  Thanks for your 

   factual Opinion  Regards Ken  

[jvs]

The courts will generally give you up to one year to sell the property.

 

[blackshadow]

why put such a question on here

YOU MUST go see a legal person.......and ask there

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, KayDeeDee said:

We own  5 rai  date palm 

 

2 hours ago, KayDeeDee said:

Obviously and we also have a  Plot of land that we are going to build a new House on

Who is we?  If you are not Thai you own nothing.

[liddelljohn]

Go to land office and get a 30 year USUFRUCT  on land and house , then you have some real security

[bradiston]

17 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

Go to land office and get a 30 year USUFRUCT  on land and house , then you have some real security

I think if his wife predeceases him, a usufruct or a lease would also terminate. I agree with the poster above. Find a trustworthy lawyer (needle/haystack possibly) and try to work out the scenario where she does predecease you. I'm not sure if her making some sort of provision in a will might be possible. Is there anybody in the village/a close friend you could trust to whom she could leave the land, on the proviso you were given a lifelong usufruct agreement registered at the land office. You could go on living there, and running the farm, within the limits of the labour laws, for the rest of your life. Or, maybe leave it in trust?

 

As somebody above suggests, a court might award you 12 months in which to dispose of it. But after that....?

Edited July 8, 2023 by bradiston

[J Branche]

I am no expert but looked at if someone died without will and it would be dispursed to

the owners statutory heirs.

 

There is an order like children, parents, brothers/sisters.

 

I'm working on having us make wills that specifically detail what is to happen with the property.

My understanding is you have take the completed wills to the local amphur to record.  

The will should be made according to Thai law and standards.

[bradiston]

1 minute ago, J Branche said:

I am no expert but looked at if someone died without will and it would be dispursed to

the owners statutory heirs.

 

There is an order like children, parents, brothers/sisters.

 

I'm working on having us make wills that specifically detail what is to happen with the property.

My understanding is you have take the completed wills to the local amphur to record.  

The will should be made according to Thai law and standards.

The OP says she has NO relatives. Hence the problem.

[BenStark]

2 minutes ago, bradiston said:

The OP says she has NO relatives. Hence the problem.

Hence he is the only heir, since he is married, and will get 1 year to sell

[J Branche]

As someone mentioned talk with a trusted lawyer.

My understanding is if the owner of the house or condo dies the Usufruct remains in effect till the expiration.  I read the post about trust but my understanding is trust are not recognized in Thailand.

 

Definitely see the value in hiring qualified lawyer to help and guide you through making sure

the correct, process, paperwork and procedure is followed to assist with achieving the desired result.

 

 

[bradiston]

11 minutes ago, BenStark said:

Hence he is the only heir, since he is married, and will get 1 year to sell

The idea was to explore all their options. The one year option is just one, and if it doesn't sell in that time, what then?

[bradiston]

12 minutes ago, J Branche said:

As someone mentioned talk with a trusted lawyer.

My understanding is if the owner of the house or condo dies the Usufruct remains in effect till the expiration.  I read the post about trust but my understanding is trust are not recognized in Thailand.

 

Definitely see the value in hiring qualified lawyer to help and guide you through making sure

the correct, process, paperwork and procedure is followed to assist with achieving the desired result.

 

 

How can a written agreement outlast the signatories to it?

[BenStark]

2 minutes ago, bradiston said:

The idea was to explore all their options. The one year option is just one, and if it doesn't sell in that time, what then?

You always can sell to a company which you are the director of. Majority of foreigners own property that way

[bradiston]

Just now, BenStark said:

You always can sell to a company which you are the director of. Majority of foreigners own property that way

A novel idea. Well, to me, at least. Has it been tested?

[IvorBiggun2]

The OP gets 12 months to sell the land after his wife's passing. End of story.

[khunPer]

21 hours ago, KayDeeDee said:

My Question is  what if something were to happen to my wife , dies  ( God For Bid )  also she has NO Relatives    What happens to the Land ownership  ?   I know i can own the New  House & small cabin , But what about the Land ?

Most important would be that your wife makes a last will, as the husband otherwise might only eligible for inherit 50%, if there are other living relatives.

 

Quote below is from the book "Thai Law for Foreigners", page 80...

 

As a foreigner you cannot own land. In case on inherit you'll be given 12 month to sell the land.

 

A servitude might be worth considering – could be usufruct or habitation right – so when the land is sold or transferred, you still have the right to live there. And yes, a foreigner can own a house, a superficies or similar servitude is needed.

 

As suggested in a previous post, you can form a Thai company limited. You will need a partner or two, and can only hold 49% of the shares, but can however own preferred shares. Holding land for a foreigner within a company, the company should preferably have other activities than just being an empty shall for land ownership for a foreigner.

[GreasyFingers]

Your wife should make a will for the land (and everything) to go to you, at your local Amphur that they will witness and hold the original. After probate is granted you will have 1 year to transfer to a Thai or sell. Their fee is nominal.

[Brick Top]

22 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

 

Who is we?  If you are not Thai you own nothing.

Incorrect , he can legally own the house and have it registered in his name but not the land 

[Brick Top]

3 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

The OP gets 12 months to sell the land after his wife's passing. End of story.

He could as my friend did sell the land to a newly formed Thai company and become the sole director and therefore be able to control that company. 

He then could also register any house on that land into his own name or another option get the Thai company to give him a 30 year lease on the land to further secure it.

[LukKrueng]

Best thing is to have your wife write a will leaving you the property and all her belongings. The fact that you don't know if any relatives doesn't mean there aren't any distant relatives that might appear later in life.

If your wife goes before you, as was mentioned already, the court will give you 12 months to sell the property to a Thai person. At that point you either sell and move out, or come to an agreement with the buyer to lease you the property for 30 years. You could also find someone you trust and transfer the ownership to their name and put a lease on it.

As for owning the house without the land - no so easy. The land has a title deed (chanot). The house has no such thing. In some cases of property developed by a company (developers) they separate the house from the land by issuing 2 chanots - one for the land and one for the house. I've never heard of any individual who managed to do so on a single plot with a house on it. Many people would argue that if the building permit was given under your name that means the house is yours. Not true. No chanot = no ownership.

[ThaiLawOnline]

 

Hi,

 

I am Sebastien and work for more than 15 years with Thai attorneys. Some information above is misleading or doesn't have enough info to answer. I have seen cases like that many times, when the Thai wife passes away before the foreigner. Below is what is important:

 

1. First you need to know about the title deeds of land. Nobody asked you that because most people on Forum are not attorneys. For example, you can not register a usufruct on land that is Por Bor Tor 5 or Sor Por Kor. I presume they are chanotte but some farm land is not....

 

2. Second, there is a difference between inheritance and having the right to live on the property. The usufruct if the Land is Nor Sor Sam or higher could give you the right to live there, after she passes away. But not ownership. Usufruct is at section 1417 of Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand.  (hereafter CCCT)

 

3. For inheritance ; It is done according to a Last Will. If none, then it is according to the law and you must verify if there are parents or children alive. The spouse is also a legal heir. If no children, no parents alive and you are the legal husband, you will inherit of everything according to sections 1629 and 1635 CCCT. If there is a parent or child or children alive, by law, you get 50%.

 

4. Third, it is not the Court that gives you right to sell. If something happens to her before you. You have to deal with inheritance if you are appointed executor by a Last Will or if you are a legal spouse under Thai Law and statutory heir.

 

You go to court and they appoint you to be executor, with or without a last Will. As executor, then you go to the land department and and ask to transfer to a third party. It is the LAND CODE that says if it is not authorized (section 93 especially).

 

Here are a translation of the Land Code by the Supreme Court of Thailand:

http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/outsitedata/outsite21/file/Act_Promulgating_the_Land_Code_BE_2497_(1954).pdf

 

You need the authorization to keep it on your name and they never do it. They delegate the powers to land department. So according so section 94, you have 180 days to 1 year to dispose of the property. The Court grants you to be executor and as executor, the land department will give you time to transfer or sell. If you sell, you can keep the proceeds. You could also transfer to a Thai person that you know and ask in return a contract to live there until you die. The problem is if you do wish the real estate to by given to a foreigner later.... There are ways around but it's land mine and could be difficult.

 

If this land is chanotte, it might worth it to do both:

 

A) Last Wills + usufruct or

B) Last Wills and Sap Ing Sith rights (which is ownership for 30 years max and cost 20,000 baht to register). You can sell or transfer the balance of our 30 years to a third party.

 

The land department will probably refuse a lease between husband and wife. It could also protect her that you make a last Will depending if you have children or parents alive. The Last Will makes it clear.

 

Some Law firms in Bangkok asks crazy prices for ONE Will --) 25,000 baht and up. We can do exactly the same much cheaper, anywhere in Thailand.  Like 2 Wills and a usufruct for about 15,000 baht, Thai and English, instructions for registration, etc.

 

If you want info, let me know.

 

[ThaiLawOnline]

 

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

Most important would be that your wife makes a last will, as the husband otherwise might only eligible for inherit 50%, if there are other living relatives.

 

Quote below is from the book "Thai Law for Foreigners", page 80...

 

As a foreigner you cannot own land. In case on inherit you'll be given 12 month to sell the land.

 

A servitude might be worth considering – could be usufruct or habitation right – so when the land is sold or transferred, you still have the right to live there. And yes, a foreigner can own a house, a superficies or similar servitude is needed.

 

As suggested in a previous post, you can form a Thai company limited. You will need a partner or two, and can only hold 49% of the shares, but can however own preferred shares. Holding land for a foreigner within a company, the company should preferably have other activities than just being an empty shall for land ownership for a foreigner.

 

 

I read that book "Thai Law for foreigners" when it went out around 2008.  I found few mistakes, even if it is normally a good summary.

 

You are making a legal mistake if you consider usufruct and right of habitation as "servitude".  A servitude is a French civil law concept and defined in th CCCT., just like a usufruct. Common Law countries often call servitude "right of ways". It is used to give access for example of a piece of land. A usufruct is a real right, you can call it liens or an encumbrance on a title deed but the real term would be a "dismember" part of property rights, divided in usus, fructus and abusus in civil law. The usufruct between 1 + 2 but not 3.

 

Servitude, Superficies, Right of habitation, usufruct are all part of book 4 of the CCCT. Servitude are at 1387 and different than usufruct 1417 or right of habitation at 1402. Right of habitation is not as strong as usufruct.

Sap Ing Sith are also different and could be interesting. Because it started in 2019, I never seen a married couple doing it and I am not sure how the land department would react.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by ThaiLawOnline

[Muhendis]

5 hours ago, BenStark said:

You always can sell to a company which you are the director of.

Nice idea but no. The land office will recognise the relationship between the company owner and the deceased owner and will say that this relationship is too close and likely fraudulent. 

Best thing is to get a usufruct on the land so that if your wife dies you can sell the land and the new owner will have to honour the usufruct.

Alternatively, get a new Thai wife and sign the land to her name.

[BenStark]

1 minute ago, Muhendis said:

Nice idea but no. The land office will recognise the relationship between the company owner and the deceased owner and will say that this relationship is too close and likely fraudulent. 

Best thing is to get a usufruct on the land so that if your wife dies you can sell the land and the new owner will have to honour the usufruct.

Alternatively, get a new Thai wife and sign the land to her name.

Any contract between married people can be challenged in court. A usufruct is a contract.

 

I don't know up country, but here in Pattaya, the foreigner isn't mentioned in the company when they register the property, he gets added later.

 

They learned from that a coupled of years ago when land offices started to make the issues you mention

[Muhendis]

3 minutes ago, BenStark said:

A usufruct is a contract.

It is indeed, but the contract is between the land document and the person named as the usufruct.

Should the owner (wife or whoever) sell the land the usufruct carries on until it's termination either by expiry time, by the named person giving it up or by the named person dying.

[sirineou]

  

Thailand is a community  property country where marital assets are divided equally. So if she was to pass without a will, you will automatically be  entitled to 50% of the assets. Not sure about the line of succession for the remaining 50%.But  since there are no children , chances are he will be entitled of that also ,But as I said I am not sure.

   A will can solve the other 50% problem. 

As said by other , after that you will have one year to sell it, but if unsuccessful , you might be granted an extension. If you have a trusted family member, you can make arrangements to have them inherit everything and they in turn lease the land to you for a length of time. 

But he dont take our advice , a lawyer consultation would be relatively inexpensive and well worth the money for the peace of mind it will buy you.

[ericthai]

5 hours ago, bradiston said:

A novel idea. Well, to me, at least. Has it been tested?

A Thai still needs to own 51% of the company....

 

[scorecard]

6 hours ago, J Branche said:

I am no expert but looked at if someone died without will and it would be dispursed to

the owners statutory heirs.

 

There is an order like children, parents, brothers/sisters.

 

I'm working on having us make wills that specifically detail what is to happen with the property.

My understanding is you have take the completed wills to the local amphur to record.  

The will should be made according to Thai law and standards.

Just some of your points: it's not compulsory for the will(s) to be recorded at the amphur; If they are properly completed and very clear (not possible for the words to be interpreted different ways) and properly signed and witnessed the will(s) are legal - not required, by law, to be registered at the amphur office. 

 

What happens to the the property if the owner (your wife) passes away is up to 2 influences:

- The express wishes of our wife,

- The limitations on ownership of Thai land as expressly detailed in Thai law. 

The wife can bequeath land (in a properly completed will) to the non-Thai husband however the foreigner must sell that land to a Thai person within 12 months of the death of the Thai wife.

 

The Thai Commercial Code details specifically how the assets of the deceased must be distrbuted (parents brothers, sisters, childen etc.) If the deceased dies INTESTATE  (meaning he/she dies WITHOUT MAKING A WILL).

 

If the deceased has made a legal will the distribution as listed in the commercial code (para above) does not apply / cannot forceably be applied .

 

When a Thai person makes a will they have total and complete feedom to bequeath* their assets to whoever they wish (*give upon death). 

 

The wife can bequeath land to the non-Thai husband however the foreigner must sell that land to a Thai person within 12 months of the death of the Thai wife.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by scorecard

[BenStark]

39 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

It is indeed, but the contract is between the land document and the person named as the usufruct.

Should the owner (wife or whoever) sell the land the usufruct carries on until it's termination either by expiry time, by the named person giving it up or by the named person dying.

Not correct. If the contract has been created while both were married already, it can be invalidated.

 

If you divorce from your wife, and the usufruct was created after you were married, the wife can ask the court to invalidate the usufruct

[Liverpool Lou]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:46 PM, bkk6060 said:

Who is we?  If you are not Thai you own nothing.

Who are you?  He can own the property on the land.