Biden administration announces additional $325 million in military aid to Ukraine

[heybruce]

It's curious that the anti-war posters save most or all of their condemnation for the defenders, not the aggressors.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

It's curious that the anti-war posters save most or all of their condemnation for the defenders, not the aggressors.

I think they are anti-war against the aggressors, and in particular this specific aggressor.

 

[Sigmund]

It is always rather intriguing and surprising when a supposedly rich country  has millions of homeless slepping or dying in it's streets and yet hands out billions in military aid to foreign nations.

[Cory1848]

12 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nah, those other countries you mentioned are all NATO members and covered by the NATO treaty. Ukraine is not. That is the biggest difference.  The "domino theory" does not apply.

That is a big difference, and I hope you're right, but I wouldn’t bet on it with the aggressor thinking he’s Peter the Great. Fresh off a victory in Ukraine after the US and EU grew tired of sending money, Putin might see some openings. The Suwałki Gap (a modern-day Danzig Corridor?) is 60 km wide; secure that and the Baltic States become vulnerable, and would the rest of NATO really come to their defense, with their civilian populations (read: voters) already tired of all this? Maybe this scenario sounds nuts, but it makes so much sense to just give the Ukrainians everything they need right now to end this thing.

[hotchilli]

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Why not just set the money on fire? At least it would keep a homeless person warm for a couple of hours.

It is insane to keep throwing money at this conflict when there is no actual exit strategy. If the Europeans are so worried, let THEM foot the bill.

America wants the re-building rites... long term strategy.

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, Cory1848 said:

That is a big difference, and I hope you're right, but I wouldn’t bet on it with the aggressor thinking he’s Peter the Great. Fresh off a victory in Ukraine after the US and EU grew tired of sending money, Putin might see some openings. The Suwałki Gap (a modern-day Danzig Corridor?) is 60 km wide; secure that and the Baltic States become vulnerable, and would the rest of NATO really come to their defense, with their civilian populations (read: voters) already tired of all this? Maybe this scenario sounds nuts, but it makes so much sense to just give the Ukrainians everything they need right now to end this thing.

You might be right, which is why it was stupid to defend Ukraine as if it were a NATO-lite member in the first place. Waste of 100 billion plus dollars that could have been better spent elsewhere.  

Give Putin a stalemate in Ukraine that he can propagandize into a victory at home and stop the fighting is the best way forward. A smaller and wiser Ukraine is left.  At the same time, renew commitments to the Baltic States and preposition NATO forces from other member countries within their borders. 

And God forbid, perhaps Europe will finally start to take their own defence seriously and stop faffing about. It is not America's job to defend Europe if they can't be bothered to defend themselves. 

[HappyExpat57]

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Why not just set the money on fire? At least it would keep a homeless person warm for a couple of hours.

It is insane to keep throwing money at this conflict when there is no actual exit strategy. If the Europeans are so worried, let THEM foot the bill.

Quite a short-sighted perspective. Should Putin succeed in taking Ukraine, do you really think he'll just take his tanks and go home, or push even further?

[Hanaguma]

2 minutes ago, HappyExpat57 said:

Quite a short-sighted perspective. Should Putin succeed in taking Ukraine, do you really think he'll just take his tanks and go home, or push even further?

He will stop and he will bluster because he will come up to a hard border with NATO treaty nations.  He will have his victory, secure his legacy, and turn to domestic issues to cement his power base and future. 

But if a cease fire can be negotiated, it would not result in the elimination of the Ukraine so your hypothetical is moot.  

[Felton Jarvis]

Bravo, Joe.  Aid to Ukraine is critical.

[rudi49jr]

43 minutes ago, gearbox said:

It is up to the Americans which party they would choose, none of your business.

Who the Americans vote for has ramifications for the entire world, so it is in fact everyone’s business.

[ozimoron]

51 minutes ago, gearbox said:

It is up to the Americans which party they would choose, none of your business.

Is what I said not true? It obviously is otherwise you wouldn't have gotten all butt hurt.

[ozimoron]

48 minutes ago, heybruce said:

It's curious that the anti-war posters save most or all of their condemnation for the defenders, not the aggressors.

 

42 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I think they are anti-war against the aggressors, and in particular this specific aggressor.

 

They're Russians and various fascist extremists who want Russia to win so democracy loses..

Edited September 22, 2023 by ozimoron

[rudi49jr]

46 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nah, those other countries you mentioned are all NATO members and covered by the NATO treaty. Ukraine is not. That is the biggest difference.  The "domino theory" does not apply.

Let’s say that is true, although I have my reservations, because Russia is still going to try very hard to create a bigger buffer between NATO and their own border. And if the West backs out of the war in Ukraine, it will still show other ‘evil states’ that the West is weak and not willing to defend their allies when push comes to shove. 

[Cory1848]

27 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

You might be right, which is why it was stupid to defend Ukraine as if it were a NATO-lite member in the first place. Waste of 100 billion plus dollars that could have been better spent elsewhere.  

Give Putin a stalemate in Ukraine that he can propagandize into a victory at home and stop the fighting is the best way forward. A smaller and wiser Ukraine is left.  At the same time, renew commitments to the Baltic States and preposition NATO forces from other member countries within their borders. 

And God forbid, perhaps Europe will finally start to take their own defence seriously and stop faffing about. It is not America's job to defend Europe if they can't be bothered to defend themselves. 

Stopping the fighting is indeed something to aim for, but it depends on where Ukraine would be made “smaller.” It ought to be up to the people who actually live in those currently Russian-occupied areas, but the Russians would never allow a fair referendum, so you’re back to square one. There may be some pockets in the far east of Ukraine where the residents would prefer to be in Russia; and Crimea is a case apart, having been transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR only in 1954, apparently because Khrushchev had a soft spot for Ukraine.

 

In the end, allowing an aggressor to get away with it, even partially, is almost always a mistake. And I don’t think anyone should care a whit whether Putin loses face; if this costs him his job (or more), that’s his own fault.

 

It very much is the US’s job to come to the aid of European NATO, as per NATO treaty obligations. Given the profit-seeking nature of the US defense industry and its outright purchase of, I mean close ties to, Congress, the US is going to spend 3 percent of GDP on defense whether NATO is in a war or not. And you’re right, only about a third of other NATO countries are meeting the 2 percent minimum (they include all the front-line states). So that’s an issue for sure, but not enough of one for the US to renege on its own obligations.

[Cory1848]

14 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Who the Americans vote for has ramifications for the entire world, so it is in fact everyone’s business.

Absolutely. Sometimes I think the entire world should be allowed to vote in US elections, but I expect there would be some resistance to that ...

[Hawaiian]

10 minutes ago, Cory1848 said:

Absolutely. Sometimes I think the entire world should be allowed to vote in US elections, but I expect there would be some resistance to that ...

Over my dead body!

[Cory1848]

1 minute ago, Hawaiian said:

Over my dead body!

Right. As I said, I expect there would be some resistance to the idea!

[gearbox]

12 minutes ago, Cory1848 said:

Absolutely. Sometimes I think the entire world should be allowed to vote in US elections, but I expect there would be some resistance to that ...

So the Russian interference in the US elections was legit then?

[Cory1848]

7 minutes ago, gearbox said:

So the Russian interference in the US elections was legit then?

Well, to the degree that high-level Russian leaders be allowed to cast legitimate ballots in US elections, along with all people of voting age in Sweden, Denmark, etc. But the original suggestion was obviously silly ...

[rudi49jr]

8 minutes ago, Cory1848 said:

Well, to the degree that high-level Russian leaders be allowed to cast legitimate ballots in US elections, along with all people of voting age in Sweden, Denmark, etc. But the original suggestion was obviously silly ...

So I can’t even comment when I see Americans (i.e. Republicans) making stupid decisions that will affect my life as well? That’s what I meant when I said it’s everybody’s business.

[Hanaguma]

31 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Let’s say that is true, although I have my reservations, because Russia is still going to try very hard to create a bigger buffer between NATO and their own border. And if the West backs out of the war in Ukraine, it will still show other ‘evil states’ that the West is weak and not willing to defend their allies when push comes to shove. 

True, that is probably the purpose of the war.  I can understand Russian paranoia to an extent. I mean, NATO was created to counter the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. Once the Soviet Union fell and the Pact dissolved, the raison d'etre for NATO was diminished. Yet, NATO continued to expand even as Russia was weakened.  Now I am not saying that there is an evil plot for NATO to attack Russia, but from their point of view, given their history of being invaded, I can see how they took NATO expansion as aggression. 

 

So give Russia a chunk of Ukraine as a buffer zone. That would secure their western border more or less. In turn, get assurances of the future territorial integrity of Ukraine and a specific promise to not go after NATO countries. Offer assistance with economic development to lure Russia away from the Chinese sphere of influence.  Long term, it is the only way.

[Hanaguma]

40 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

They're Russians and various fascist extremists who want Russia to win so democracy loses..

Democracy can't lose because neither Russia nor Ukraine are democratic countries. 

[RichardColeman]

Another two fingers up to the sufferers of the recent fires and his pathetic offer of $700 ! Shameful president

[Thorgal]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

It's curious that the anti-war posters save most or all of their condemnation for the defenders, not the aggressors.

I agree if you consider ethnic Russian people from Donbas and Lugansk as defenders since 2014...

Edited September 22, 2023 by Thorgal

[Cory1848]

10 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

So I can’t even comment when I see Americans (i.e. Republicans) making stupid decisions that will affect my life as well? That’s what I meant when I said it’s everybody’s business.

No no, I meant that *my* suggestion that everyone around the world be allowed to cast actual ballots in US elections was a bit of a stretch (although a serious argument could be made for it!). Your comment that people around the world have a very big interest in the outcome of US elections is spot-on; I couldn't agree more.

[Eric Loh]

8 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Another two fingers up to the sufferers of the recent fires and his pathetic offer of $700 ! Shameful president

The patheticism is the false equivalence. 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Sigmund said:

It is always rather intriguing and surprising when a supposedly rich country  has millions of homeless slepping or dying in it's streets and yet hands out billions in military aid to foreign nations.

And trillions in tax breaks to the hyper wealthy.

[Cory1848]

24 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Democracy can't lose because neither Russia nor Ukraine are democratic countries. 

False equivalence. The current system in Russia, an increasingly tyrannical dictatorship, is not like the system in Ukraine, which may be corrupt but in the “normal” ways (the United States is deeply corrupt and undemocratic, with all that money in politics). What I find tiresome about so many Russian apologists is that they entirely discount what the Ukrainians themselves want. If Ukrainians wanted to be like Russians, they would have rolled over. What the hell do you think they’re fighting so hard for? They have seen relative prosperity in their neighbors like Romania and Poland who have joined Western institutions, and that’s what they want for themselves. And why shouldn’t they.

 

It’s like the old joke. After the war, officials were delineating the new border between Poland and Russia, and the initial survey had the border running straight through the middle of a farm belonging to an old woman. Not wanting to split the woman’s property between two countries, the officials decided to ask her which country she would like to belong to. “I think I will choose Poland,” she said. “The Russian winters are so hard!”

[wwest5829]

5 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Why not just set the money on fire? At least it would keep a homeless person warm for a couple of hours.

It is insane to keep throwing money at this conflict when there is no actual exit strategy. If the Europeans are so worried, let THEM foot the bill.

Wait, didn't I hear similar when the West sold out the Czechs concerning Hitler's demand for the Sudetenland .... 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

You might be right, which is why it was stupid to defend Ukraine as if it were a NATO-lite member in the first place. Waste of 100 billion plus dollars that could have been better spent elsewhere.  

Give Putin a stalemate in Ukraine that he can propagandize into a victory at home and stop the fighting is the best way forward. A smaller and wiser Ukraine is left.  At the same time, renew commitments to the Baltic States and preposition NATO forces from other member countries within their borders. 

And God forbid, perhaps Europe will finally start to take their own defence seriously and stop faffing about. It is not America's job to defend Europe if they can't be bothered to defend themselves. 

So you want to let Russia keep the land that it stole.  I assume you also want to let Russia keep the tens of thousands of Ukrainian children it kidnapped as well.