Opinion: Making me pay tax is fine but where does it go?

[webfact]

In 1789, American statesman Benjamin Franklin recorded in a letter, “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”.

 

And boy, will the new income tax law starting Jan 1, 2024 will make us feel like we’d rather have the other one.

 

According to an official document released on Sep 15, “…those that have earnings from occupation or business abroad or wealth that is located abroad…and have brought these assets into Thailand…must factor this into their personal income tax for the year.”

 

Translation: For those who get any money from overseas and are permanent residents in Thailand will be qualified to pay taxes in Thailand from next year. That’s not all. This new law is not limited to only just incomes, but literally any of your assets coming into your bank account from overseas, will now be taxable.

 

by Choltanutkun Tun-atiruj

 

Full story: THAI ENQUIRER 2023-09-25

 

- Cigna offers a range of visa-compliant plans that meet the minimum requirement of medical treatment, including COVID-19, up to THB 3m. For more information on all expat health insurance plans click here.

 

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[KhunLA]

To the title, and why I preferred to stop paying taxes in USA, as not liking what they wasted it on.

 

Here/TH, and the tax treaty will avoid any taxes on income.  As with most expats. 

 

But for some reason, we need thread after thread of 'not going to be taxed' to worry about.

[ezzra]

"Opinion: Making me pay tax is fine but where does it go?" this article must have written in jest, do we know where all the other taxes, dues and payments we pay goes to that the article asks this question?

[daveAustin]

Would sooner burn my taxed income than watch it go directly into the pocket of some unelected dinosaur here. That is where this bogus 'tax' will go.

[Ben Zioner]

This  is exactly how  I feel, even though I am not a Thai citizen,  but I am the father of two bright Thai who might have to leave the country of their childhood to get a decent life.

[connda]

Everyone who buys anything is taxed.  It's called VAT.

[bob smith]

good question. more than likely into the back pocket of some corrupt official. 

 

thanks, but no thanks.

[nausea]

Won't affect me, I assume, cos double taxation is a thing. If I had a choice though, I'd rather pay tax here than in the UK; rankles me that I pay UK tax but my state pension is frozen, doesn't seem fair somehow.

[retarius]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

To the title, and why I preferred to stop paying taxes in USA, as not liking what they wasted it on.

 

Here/TH, and the tax treaty will avoid any taxes on income.  As with most expats. 

 

But for some reason, we need thread after thread of 'not going to be taxed' to worry about.

How did you manage to stop paying US taxes? I have not lived in the US since 2005 and always have had to pay up....and no I don't agree with spending my money on endless warmongering. 

[foreverlomsak]

In the Thai Enquirer story the mentions 35% tax, however the papers only ever quote the highest rate. Thai Personal Income Tax has a progressive rate table similar in style to the UK.

Starting from Total Income, you have various allowances and deductibles to produce the Taxable Amount.

The first 150,000 is exempt

150,000 to 300,000 is 5%

300,000 to 500,000 is 10%

500,000 to 750,000 is 15%

an so on until the final rate at 35% on incomes above 4,000,000 Baht see attached

Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

For somebody who is taking in exactly 65,000 each month for Immigration purposes, the annual tax bill, worst case no rebate for double taxation and no allowances & deductibles, would be 71,000 not the 273,000 implied by the Thai Enquirer story of 35% tax on all income.

[foreverlomsak]

18 minutes ago, nausea said:

Won't affect me, I assume, cos double taxation is a thing. If I had a choice though, I'd rather pay tax here than in the UK; rankles me that I pay UK tax but my state pension is frozen, doesn't seem fair somehow.

One benefit of being forced into doing Thai Tax returns is that the Tax Withholding (15%) on your savings in the Thai bank should be recoverable, not much (as the interest payable is not much) but should pay for a few bottles of beer.

[biervoormij]

1 hour ago, foreverlomsak said:

In the Thai Enquirer story the mentions 35% tax, however the papers only ever quote the highest rate. Thai Personal Income Tax has a progressive rate table similar in style to the UK.

Starting from Total Income, you have various allowances and deductibles to produce the Taxable Amount.

The first 150,000 is exempt

150,000 to 300,000 is 5%

300,000 to 500,000 is 10%

500,000 to 750,000 is 15%

an so on until the final rate at 35% on incomes above 4,000,000 Baht see attached

Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

For somebody who is taking in exactly 65,000 each month for Immigration purposes, the annual tax bill, worst case no rebate for double taxation and no allowances & deductibles, would be 71,000 not the 273,000 implied by the Thai Enquirer story of 35% tax on all income.

Thanks for this.

 

I assume in addition to the 71,000 tax I will need to get a Thai Tax ID and be expected to submit a Thai tax return yearly?

 

I come from a country with a tax treaty but my income is below the standard deduction there so am not currently paying any tax. I am living mostly on saving which I believe will be seen as income when coming into Thailand.   

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, retarius said:

How did you manage to stop paying US taxes? I have not lived in the US since 2005 and always have had to pay up....and no I don't agree with spending my money on endless warmongering. 

Stopped producing taxable income.

[soalbundy]

21 minutes ago, biervoormij said:

Thanks for this.

 

I assume in addition to the 71,000 tax I will need to get a Thai Tax ID and be expected to submit a Thai tax return yearly?

 

I come from a country with a tax treaty but my income is below the standard deduction there so am not currently paying any tax. I am living mostly on saving which I believe will be seen as income when coming into Thailand.   

I get a good German pension that is not taxed in Germany, that has always intrigued me until I looked at old correspondence from the German tax office, they state that they won't tax me because I live in Thailand and due to the double taxation treaty it is the alone right of the Thai tax office to tax me. I am assuming that they can only tax that part of my pension that I transfer to Thailand, the rest stays in my German account.

[Lacrimas]

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

This  is exactly how  I feel, even though I am not a Thai citizen,  but I am the father of two bright Thai who might have to leave the country of their childhood to get a decent life.

where is this dreamland you want to send your kids to? the rotten USA? Invaded Europe? China?

[Lacrimas]

2 hours ago, connda said:

Everyone who buys anything is taxed.  It's called VAT.

exactly, there's no need to burden us with additional tax considering we already help this nation a lot

[Andyfez]

I wonder how they will police this? 

Tax all income coming into the country?

If I bring it in through ATM or Western union, how will they know?

[hotchilli]

4 hours ago, webfact said:

Translation: For those who get any money from overseas and are permanent residents in Thailand will be qualified to pay taxes in Thailand from next year.

So if you stay here on an annual renewable visa you are NOT a resident?

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

So if you stay here on an annual renewable visa you are NOT a resident?

Usual sloppy reporting, the official notice said "Tax Residents" i.e. anybody who spends 180+ days in Thailand in any one calendar/tax year. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[Mike Teavee]

14 minutes ago, Andyfez said:

I wonder how they will police this? 

Tax all income coming into the country?

If I bring it in through ATM or Western union, how will they know?

Here's one for you, over the course of a year I give my mate who works in Bangkok approx. £10,000 in the UK for his regular investing there & stuff he buys for his kids etc..., he pays the equivalent into my Thailand Bank Account.

 

Am I bringing this money into Thailand? 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[freeworld]

1 hour ago, biervoormij said:

Thanks for this.

 

I assume in addition to the 71,000 tax I will need to get a Thai Tax ID and be expected to submit a Thai tax return yearly?

 

I come from a country with a tax treaty but my income is below the standard deduction there so am not currently paying any tax. I am living mostly on saving which I believe will be seen as income when coming into Thailand.   

''I am living mostly on saving which I believe will be seen as income when coming into Thailand.''

 

No that is not income. You may just have to explain it if they ask.

 

The only income may be some interest accrued and there were requirements when it had to be transferred out and even then it will be below the marginal limit when one starts to pay tax.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by freeworld

[No Forwarding Address]

2 hours ago, retarius said:

How did you manage to stop paying US taxes? I have not lived in the US since 2005 and always have had to pay up....and no I don't agree with spending my money on endless warmongering. 

The only ways I know are "getting a second passport and  being a Native American and living on a Reservation".   Big misconception is you don't have to pay US taxes after being overseas after so many years........The long arm of the IRS will come and get you, there are lot's of people in jail for income tax evasion..........don't do it.  You can take a Foreign Income Tax deduction if Thailand ever taxes your income, but I don't see that affecting most people here.      Cheers

[No Forwarding Address]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Here's one for you, over the course of a year I give my mate who works in Bangkok approx. £10,000 in the UK for his regular investing there & stuff he buys for his kids etc..., he pays the equivalent into my Thailand Bank Account.

 

Am I bringing this money into Thailand? 

How is it deposited??  If in a UK Bank account, then no you're not bringing money into Thailand.  I would suspect he pays taxes on his income in Bangkok so taxes have been paid - all is good.   Cheers

[Mike Teavee]

11 minutes ago, No Forwarding Address said:

How is it deposited??  If in a UK Bank account, then no you're not bringing money into Thailand.  I would suspect he pays taxes on his income in Bangkok so taxes have been paid - all is good.   Cheers

Transferred from my Barclays account to his Natwest Account or paid by me on my UK credit card (I pay for our annual trip home to visit family) & he pays me back from his (taxed) income in Thailand. 

 

Works out well for both of us as we use the XE mid market rate which is higher than I would get transferring money over & lower than he would need to pay to transfer THB to GBP. 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[soalbundy]

4 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

This  is exactly how  I feel, even though I am not a Thai citizen,  but I am the father of two bright Thai who might have to leave the country of their childhood to get a decent life.

I think the fears of taxation on pensions of foreigners is overblown. Thailand has always had the right to tax our pensions but has never done so. I have correspondence from my German tax office from 19 years ago saying that they aren't taxing my pension because this is the right of the Thai tax authorities alone as I live in Thailand and due to the double tax agreement the German tax office relinquishes any right to tax me as I have no income besides my pension being generated in Germany. I have read in 'Bangkok news' that the new tax laws are purposely ambiguous and target those with businesses with a tax number generating income abroad. I don't have a tax number and haven't paid tax anywhere for 19 years nor have I been asked to.

Before I got a letter confirming that I wouldn't be taxed in Germany as this was a matter for the Thai tax people I had to have a form filled out by the Thai tax office for the German tax office confirming that I had no other income except for my pension, they refused to do so because I didn't have a Thai tax number, they just weren't interested in my untaxed pension.

[Puccini]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I get a good German pension that is not taxed in Germany, that has always intrigued me until I looked at old correspondence from the German tax office, they state that they won't tax me because I live in Thailand and due to the double taxation treaty it is the alone right of the Thai tax office to tax me. I am assuming that they can only tax that part of my pension that I transfer to Thailand, the rest stays in my German account.

This is what the "AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE KINGDOM OF THAILAND AND THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME AND ON CAPITAL", completed on July 10, 1967, says:
 

Quote

 

ARTICLE 18

 

1 Pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities derived by a resident of a Contracting State may be taxed in the other Contracting State only if such payments are deducted as expenses in determining the profits of an enterprise of that other State or of a permanent establishment situated therein.

2 Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities paid by or out of funds created by a Contracting State, a “Land”, a political subdivision, local authority or local administration thereof shall be exempt from tax in the other Contracting State.

3 Paragraph 2 shall likewise apply in respect or pensions, annuities and other recurring or not recurring remuneration paid to any individual by a Contracting State, a “Land” a political subdivision, a local authority or local administration thereof as compensation for an injury or damage sustained as a result of hostilities or political persecution.

 

Source: https://www.aseanbriefing.com/userfiles/resources-pdfs/Thailand/DTA/ASEAN_DTA_Thailand_Germany.pdf

 

It is possible and probable that this old agreement of 1967 has been replaced by a newer agreement but I could not find any newer agreement.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Puccini
Added link to the source

[foreverlomsak]

2 hours ago, biervoormij said:

Thanks for this.

 

I assume in addition to the 71,000 tax I will need to get a Thai Tax ID and be expected to submit a Thai tax return yearly?

 

I come from a country with a tax treaty but my income is below the standard deduction there so am not currently paying any tax. I am living mostly on saving which I believe will be seen as income when coming into Thailand.   

There's no need to do anything at the moment.

Even if you are not paying tax in your home country, your income is still subject to your countries tax, and therefore depends on the tax treaty.

I am mostly living on savings as well, but my savings are mostly here already, so only the interest on it is taxable by Thailand.

[BE88]

4 hours ago, connda said:

Everyone who buys anything is taxed.  It's called VAT.

And from next year you will pay the tax twice.

[Thaindrew]

3 hours ago, foreverlomsak said:

In the Thai Enquirer story the mentions 35% tax, however the papers only ever quote the highest rate. Thai Personal Income Tax has a progressive rate table similar in style to the UK.

Starting from Total Income, you have various allowances and deductibles to produce the Taxable Amount.

The first 150,000 is exempt

150,000 to 300,000 is 5%

300,000 to 500,000 is 10%

500,000 to 750,000 is 15%

an so on until the final rate at 35% on incomes above 4,000,000 Baht see attached

Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

For somebody who is taking in exactly 65,000 each month for Immigration purposes, the annual tax bill, worst case no rebate for double taxation and no allowances & deductibles, would be 71,000 not the 273,000 implied by the Thai Enquirer story of 35% tax on all income.

this is where it will get interesting / complicated as in many instances that 65000 is not coming in as visa applications are submitted via agents who "deposit" 800,000.

[chang50]

2 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

this is where it will get interesting / complicated as in many instances that 65000 is not coming in as visa applications are submitted via agents who "deposit" 800,000.

I've been curious about this too..