ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[BarraMarra]

What we do know is Hamas started all this by crossing into Israel and slaughtering innocent men women and children fact. We also know Hamas has kidnapped Westerners and brought them to Gaza fact. We know they are using them as human shields fact. We know Hamas stores Munitions placed within Schools, Hospitals, Civilian apartments, and Tunnels underneath Gaza fact. So who do you believe flattened this Hospital? 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I've no idea what/who you are on about. 

I like Al Jazeera and think they are one of the more neutral news outlets. 

You can think what you like. On matters ME, at least those which relate to the interests of Qatar, the reporting is very obviously controlled and takes sides. Similarly, Al Jazeera does not do much by way of investigative reporting where Qatar is directly concerned, or on anything that might put it in a bad light. It's an ok source, for some news, not all and not on all topics.

 

And that was AlJazeera's English Edition. The Arabic one is a different story - less need to keep pretenses or standards. Most of the Arab World follows the Arab Edition, obviously.

 

Qatar hosts top Hamas leaders for years now. Also provides major funding to the Gaza Strip. You want to paint it as balanced, objective, non-biased and so forth, that's your choice. Then again, facts don't seem to phase you much anyway.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Paul Catton said:

It is still a claim, and currently appears to be the most widely accepted one from both, the regional Islamic countries and an external growing populace around the world..

Presumably, no-one contributing to this thread currently has their own feet on the ground to advise.

Therefore we are all subject to various worldwide media reports with unconscious bias, to base our own comprehension and forming opinion regarding events as they develop. 
I prefer Al Jazeera to be a valid source of reporting within the Middle East, Western media reporting such as CNN, BBC etc.. not quite so much.    

That Arab and Muslim nations immediately embrace the Palestinian narrative is not surprising. If this was taken up by Western Governments it would be more interesting. So far, they exhibit a more cautious approach - which IMO is fine.

 

So far, there was nothing provided as support by the Hamas to bolster claims.

 

See comment about AJ in previous post above.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

You are ignoring my post  about GMTV. 

Are you suggesting news sources that are owned by Jewish people are less likely to be biased about an Israeli conflict? 

Come on man. 

I'm suggesting that it won't be long before you'll be whining about being called an anti-Semite.

 

Jews, believe it or not, have differing views regarding Israel, and they are not all that shy expressing it. Israeli Jews as well, have many among them who disapprove of government policy or even identify with the Palestinians' plight.

 

What you're trying to deflect is that Al Jazeera is state-owned and controlled. The state have policies related to Hamas and the Gaza Strip (hosting leaders, funding).

 

A state can have a coherent or even unified political and foreign policy.

Whole religions, not so much.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

Huge dose of whataboutism.

 

Right to self defense should stop at and within a nations border.

Says you?

So how would you define the Hamas attack on Israel?

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

There is another question, why would they blow up their own people? 

 

Unbelievable. 

There is a lot more to it than that. 

 

I doubt there were serious claims Hamas intentionally did this. References to Palestinian responsibility were associated with malfunction, making this accidental. Hamas does, however, benefit from the death of Gazans , at least on the PR front. The cynicism is quite blatant considering Hamas attempts to convince Gazans to stay in harm's way , or not providing them with shelters - never mind starting this mess knowing the consequences.

 

And one liners that say there's a lot more to it than that, usually indicate the poster doesn't actually have a clue or insight regarding the comment responded to.

[Wobblybob]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Ah, sorry. 

 

@BarraMarra believes GMTV are not biased, yet AJ is. 

 

They are both obviously biased. 

 

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Ha, this is rich. 

You started by saying on the last page that I claimed 1000 babies were killed, when I never. 

You claimed Al Jazeera are no good as the leader of Hamas has an apartment in Qatar. 

I was pointing out to you that most news sources in the West are Jewish owned or controlled. You claim this is disgusting. Double standards eh, alright to mention if they are Muslim though.

Now, you are saying I am twisting your words! 

 

Al Jazeera is anti Semitic and is probably telling you news that you want to believe rather than what is the truth.

 

"Al Jazeera Media Network, endowed by the Government of Qatar, is one of the world's largest news organizations. It provides extensive news coverage through 80 bureaus on a variety of media platforms in several languages, including Arabic and English. Al Jazeera has a large audience, but the organization (particularly its original Arabic channel) has been criticized for its alleged involvement in controversies ranging from slanted journalism to anti-Hindu bias and anti-Israel bias."

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism

[Morch]

What is factually known is that there was an explosion at a hospital, resulting in mass casualties.

 

As far as I'm aware, Hamas did not provide any proof it was an Israeli attack. There's bound to be something - video footage, bomb shrapnel, or even a crater where the explosion supposedly happen. From what I've seen, there's none of that offer.

 

On the other hand, Hamas was able, within the hour, announce 500 deaths. There is no way they could have actually cleared and counted bodies, verified death, care for the wounded and so on within an hour. This part was obviously dodgy and PR move, rather than fact based.

 

Now, as for Israel deliberately doing this - slim chances. Not policy, and a bad move with Biden exactly on the way. Perfect timing for Hamas to blame Israel for it, though.

 

Then again, it could have been an error, a mistake, whatever. Could be. But in the many times Israel bombed the Gaza Strip over the years, there weren't actually many times hospitals were directly hit - and that with thousands (maybe more?) of sorties flown. So again, slim chances.

 

Israel claims the explosion was the result of an Islamic Jihad rocket misfiring, exploding prematurely, dropping on the hospital etc. While some of the usual suspects will have trouble accepting it, this happens all the time. On each and every occasion the Palestinians fire rockets at Israel, a significant number malfunctions, sometimes with very bad results. Last time Israel and the Islamic Jihad had a go, about 300 rockets misfired. During the present situation, the last figure I saw was 400.

 

It's expected that Arab countries will automatically embrace the Palestinian narrative on this, nothing new there - and even if it turns out Israel's claim is true, most won't budge. Some posters on here the same, probably. So far, it would seem that Western countries are more reasonable about this, waiting for findings and facts. I'll add that at least as far as the USA and the UK go, they have enough surveillance assets in place to get a clearer picture of what happened. 

 

This underscores (again) the issue of Hamas being embedded within its own civilian population, while denying them any protection (as in bomb shelters, or launching in a manner less risky for Gazans). Further, it is not unknown for Hamas and the Islamic Jihad to use hospitals and schools as storage facilities ('caught' at it by UNRWA even, on the previous round), place rocket launchers nearby and so on. Somehow, even though that's a clear violation of them international laws some here tend to disregard, minimize or excuse it.

 

I'd say wait and see, but expected that regardless of facts, the meme will stick.

[Neeranam]

11 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Al Jazeera is anti Semitic and is probably telling you news that you want to believe rather than what is the truth.

What do you mean 'I want to believe'?

 

 

[Neeranam]

58 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

What we do know is Hamas started all this by crossing into Israel and slaughtering innocent men women and children fact. We also know Hamas has kidnapped Westerners and brought them to Gaza fact. We know they are using them as human shields fact. We know Hamas stores Munitions placed within Schools, Hospitals, Civilian apartments, and Tunnels underneath Gaza fact. So who do you believe flattened this Hospital? 

A little bit blinkered here Barra. 

 

I suggest you read this from Amnesty International.

 

Israel’s continuing oppressive and discriminatory system of governing Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) constituted a system of apartheid, and Israeli officials committed the crime of apartheid under international law. Israeli forces launched a three-day offensive on the occupied Gaza Strip in August during which they committed apparent war crimes.  

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

[Bkk Brian]

IDF just finishing off a public press briefing on the incident, its been live on the BBC and I guess other channels, now starting to be reported on the BBC website to. Full questioning by International reporters.

 

Plenty of evidence shown, video's, stills, infared images of the damage etc and even direct communication between Hamas when they realized their rocket had landed short and in the Hospital.

 

No impact craters from a missile at the hospital, only damage from fire. This was caused because the rocket still had plenty of propellent inside when it dropped into the hospital car park. Huge exaggeration made on number of deaths.

 

Hamas has now sealed off the hospital and no independent reporters can enter.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

IDF just finishing off a public press briefing on the incident, its been live on the BBC and I guess other channels, now starting to be reported on the BBC website to. Full questioning by International reporters.

 

Plenty of evidence shown, video's, stills, infared images of the damage etc and even direct communication between Hamas when they realized their rocket had landed short and in the Hospital.

 

No impact craters from a missile at the hospital, only damage from fire. This was caused because the rocket still had plenty of propellent inside when it dropped into the hospital car park. Huge exaggeration made on number of deaths.

 

Hamas has now sealed off the hospital and no independent reporters can enter.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

Neeranam and the Guardian will be in meltdown

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

IDF just finishing off a public press briefing on the incident, its been live on the BBC and I guess other channels, now starting to be reported on the BBC website to. Full questioning by International reporters.

 

Plenty of evidence shown, video's, stills, infared images of the damage etc and even direct communication between Hamas when they realized their rocket had landed short and in the Hospital.

 

No impact craters from a missile at the hospital, only damage from fire. This was caused because the rocket still had plenty of propellent inside when it dropped into the hospital car park. Huge exaggeration made on number of deaths.

 

Hamas has now sealed off the hospital and no independent reporters can enter.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

As far as propaganda to the genocidal "River to the Sea" fans and associated groups, whatever proof IDF shows is moot. Such people will always believe that Israel bombed that hospital. Also of course an independent investigation there is basically impossible. So assuming it was probably a Hamas accident, as they don't care about their own people anyway (in this life), that accident has won them a huge propaganda victory.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Neeranam and the Guardian will be in meltdown

Denial more like. 

[Paul Catton]

Currently the Islamic world has the opinion this was an Israeli strike.

USA categorically said "no boots on the ground",

Yet 2000 personnel are scheduled to be going in for support etc.. from the first US Aircraft Carrier Group?

The second US Aircraft Carrier group is sailing at full steam.

   

[herfiehandbag]

On the subject of the explosion at the hospital. There are I suggest three possibilities.

 

1) Israel bombed the hospital. With far more than one bomb, judging by the damage and casualties. Why? There is no coherent or logical reason, political or military. Militarily it was pointless. Even if the hospital was being used as a firing point for rockets, it would have been far more useful to provide evidence that this was the case. Besides, with the USA and the West almost completely on side there would be little point. Of course one cannot absolutely discount the imbecility of an airman, his mind seeing combat, (especially against an enemy with little effective counter air capacity) as little more than a video game, doing something stupid. The Israelis, although ruthless and angry are unlikely to have done it deliberately, and anyway they will have video of all their strikes. The Americans probably have satellite imagery, and certainly audio, as does the UK from its listening base in Cyprus which will be paying close attention. If it was Israel there will be proof very soon, if not already.

 

2) Hamas did it as a clumsy attempt to discredit Israel. I think unlikely, although Hamas are probably not troubled by any moral implications of such an act, they would not wish for the consequences if they "were found out".

 

3) An outgoing rocket crashed and detonated on the roof of the hospital, possibly causing the explosion of other munitions stored there. There will be satellite, maybe video imagery, along with signals intelligence which points at this.

 

We will probably never know the real cause, unless there is a free and open inquiry after the war; however Israel and other countries will be reluctant to disclose just how effective and deep reaching their intelligence gathering capabilities are, and Hamas will be dead.

 

For what it is worth I go for option 3, with option 1 as a distant second.

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Denial more like. 

Sorry, what am I denying?

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Paul Catton said:

Currently the Islamic world has the opinion this was an Israeli strike.

USA categorically said "no boots on the ground",

Yet 2000 personnel are scheduled to be going in for support etc.. from the first US Aircraft Carrier Group?

The second US Aircraft Carrier group is sailing at full steam.

   

The US force is a deterrent to Hezbollah and Iran.

Hopefully it works.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Jingthing

[Wobblybob]

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

What do you mean 'I want to believe'?

 

 

I would have thought that was a very obvious statement, why would anyone get their daily intake of news from an anti semetic news source like Al Jazeera if you you wanted to adopt a neutral stance? You seem to believe the anti semetic propaganda they spew out and offer very little sympathy for the recent barbaric attack in Israel.

[rabas]

1 hour ago, Paul Catton said:

Step back, take a breath, If an uncorroborated video that leads you to immediately respond with an attack justifying the  "propaganda" we are a talking about.  What I see, and what others see is  "video footage" that have differing perspectives.

I don't need to step back as I'm fully capable of analyzing video content. 

 

The video is a recording of factual information from a real event. If two people have different views of that event then one, if not both, are wrong. 

 

I strongly encourage more people to look at actual information rather that listening to talking heads. 

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, Paul Catton said:

Currently the Islamic world has the opinion this was an Israeli strike.

USA categorically said "no boots on the ground",

Yet 2000 personnel are scheduled to be going in for support etc.. from the first US Aircraft Carrier Group?

The second US Aircraft Carrier group is sailing at full steam.

   

As far as I recall, these are marines specifically trained for quick intervention. Don't think it's for extra intimidation effect, but maybe more to do with a situation US citizen need to be pulled out of Gaza etc. Or Hamas getting into the notion of raiding a US ship.

 

The main reason for the US Navy deployment is to provide extra deterrence, so that other players (Hezbollah, Iran) may consider before doing anything rash.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

15 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Sorry, what am I denying?

Being antisemitic …. 7 times and counting, so it must be true

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

I would have thought that was a very obvious statement, why would anyone get their daily intake of news from an anti semetic news source like Al Jazeera if you you wanted to adopt a neutral stance? You seem to believe the anti semetic propaganda they spew out and offer very little sympathy for the recent barbaric attack in Israel.

Al Jazeera is not antisemitic. 

What news channel do you watch?

I hope not CNN! 

 

[Paul Catton]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

IDF just finishing off a public press briefing on the incident, its been live on the BBC and I guess other channels, now starting to be reported on the BBC website to. Full questioning by International reporters.

 

Plenty of evidence shown, video's, stills, infared images of the damage etc and even direct communication between Hamas when they realized their rocket had landed short and in the Hospital.

 

No impact craters from a missile at the hospital, only damage from fire. This was caused because the rocket still had plenty of propellent inside when it dropped into the hospital car park. Huge exaggeration made on number of deaths.

 

Hamas has now sealed off the hospital and no independent reporters can enter.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

Again, nothing conclusive from this BBC report, and is also currently being refuted.

Skepticism should be applied to all reports from either side.

Sleepy Joe has now arrived in Israel, after not viewing decapitated babies yet claiming he had, perhaps, he could have the ability to diffuse the situation, as he will have his own feet on the ground.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Al Jazeera is not antisemitic.

Oh yes it is, oh yes it is ...... 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Al Jazeera is not antisemitic. 

What news channel do you watch?

I hope not CNN! 

 

Antisemitism
An article by Sherry Ricchiardi in the American Journalism Review (AJR) noted that critics of Al Jazeera have "assailed what they see as anti-Semitic, anti-American bias in the channel's news content."[6] Ricchiardi had earlier criticized an Al Jazeera report that Jewish employees of 9/11 targets were informed of the attacks beforehand, a report which was also criticized in an October 2001 New York Times editorial. She cited the former Al Jazeera weekly show Sharia and Life, hosted by Yusuf Qaradawi (an Egyptian cleric who "argues clearly and consistently that hatred of Israel and Jews is Islamically sanctioned").[7] The organization held a 2008 on-air birthday party for Samir Kuntar, a Lebanese terrorist convicted of killing four Israelis who was released in July of that year, later admitting that its coverage of Kuntar's release violated its code of ethics.[8] The organization's Beirut bureau chief said, "Brother Samir, we wish to celebrate your birthday with you" and called him a "pan-Arab hero."[9][10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Paul Catton said:

Again, nothing conclusive from this BBC report, and is also currently being refuted.

Skepticism should be applied to all reports from either side.

Sleepy Joe has now arrived in Israel, after not viewing decapitated babies yet claiming he had, perhaps, he could have the ability to diffuse the situation, as he will have his own feet on the ground.

You didn't watch the live press briefing, I suggest you do and see and listen to the evidence supplied

[Paul Catton]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The US force is a deterrent to Hezbollah and Iran.

Hopefully it works.

Likewise, similar to the US advisors initially sent to Vietnam. 

[rabas]

 

2 minutes ago, Paul Catton said:

Again, nothing conclusive from this BBC report, and is also currently being refuted.

Skepticism should be applied to all reports from either side.

Sleepy Joe has now arrived in Israel, after not viewing decapitated babies yet claiming he had, perhaps, he could have the ability to diffuse the situation, as he will have his own feet on the ground.

Well, gosh, my exact analysis. A rocket motor with lots of propellant fell at the hospital. 

[Morch]

Just now, Paul Catton said:

Likewise, similar to the US advisors initially sent to Vietnam. 

No similarities.

There's no talk or intention of long term deployment in Israel. No need to, as well. The situation is quite different.