Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, deejai33 said:

Your question about asking Hamas, queen of Jordan, for essential supplies seems odd.  Those people do not have supplies for 2m people.

? I don't understand that. Perhaps you can reword it so I can.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Until there is a fundamental change in attitude (hate and bigotry) toward jews by the muslim arabs nothing will change... most of the western world that has not been infiltrated by arab muslims support letting Israel live in peace...

Most support letting israel live in peace, but they don't support israel not letting the Palestinians also live in peace.

Till israel gives Palestinians a homeland and independence to live as they wish israel will have no peace.

It's not possible to have peace while oppressing an entire people for decades.

 

Just heard on Al Jazeera about the demonstration in London in support of Palestine, and how the tide is turning in British opinion. I didn't see any Palestinian flags, but that could be because I read that one can get arrested for holding one.

 

The world is indeed watching, and the world is not impressed with what it sees in Gaza.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, deejai33 said:

Glad its not true.  

 

Maybe you are correct and gazans are not lacking water, food, electricity.

 

I do not know those stats you ask about.  I did see gaza has some water desalination plants.  But the fuel has run out.  Water comes from Israel and West bank supplies in the main.  I don't know for sure however.

 

But everyday, most news sources report gaza has run out, or is about to run out of essentials.  Do you read that, and say 'no, not true'.

The poster you quoted seems to not realise that without fuel the Gaza power plant is unable to function, the desalination plants are unable to function, and that it is the israelis that have refused to allow fuel in.

 

Also, there are apparently no safe places in Gaza to shelter. Everywhere is reportedly being bombed or shelled, and Palestinian children continue to die.

[Skipalongcassidy]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Most support letting israel live in peace, but they don't support israel not letting the Palestinians also live in peace.

Till israel gives Palestinians a homeland and independence to live as they wish israel will have no peace.

It's not possible to have peace while oppressing an entire people for decades.

 

Just heard on Al Jazeera about the demonstration in London in support of Palestine, and how the tide is turning in British opinion. I didn't see any Palestinian flags, but that could be because I read that one can get arrested for holding one.

 

The world is indeed watching, and the world is not impressed with what it sees in Gaza.

Palestinians don't know the meaning of living in peace... Palestinians oppresses themselves with their hate and bigotry relegating themselves to their poverty and ignorance... what have they proposed to build their community... nothing.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Skipalongcassidy said:

Palestinians don't know the meaning of living in peace... Palestinians oppresses themselves with their hate and bigotry relegating themselves to their poverty and ignorance... what have they proposed to build their community... nothing.

Interesting that you should reference hate and bigotry when your post ( and that of certain other posters ) is IMO full of hate and bigotry towards Palestinians.

It is because of that that I no longer see such posts. It'd be a shame to have to ignore yours as well, but easily done if necessary.

[thaibeachlovers]

Re the OP.

According to Al Jazeera the israeli military is carrying out limited incursions into Gaza, but so far not a full scale invasion.

 

Hamas says they repelled some, and are currently fighting another three, but facts will be hard to find at the moment.

 

It has been reported that the bombing has increased over the normal level, along with increased shelling.

A hospital with thousands of sheltering refugees has reportedly been ordered to evacuate, which is not practically possible, and apparently no safe area exists to evacuate to.

[Skipalongcassidy]

26 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Interesting that you should reference hate and bigotry when your post ( and that of certain other posters ) is IMO full of hate and bigotry towards Palestinians.

It is because of that that I no longer see such posts. It'd be a shame to have to ignore yours as well, but easily done if necessary.

Ignorance would not be a legitimate excuse... but if you must... do it.

In the mean time I do NOT hate nor am I bigoted toward Palestinians... however, I do not especially like a nation who has done absolutely nothing for the betterment of their own people and blame a different nation for their woes based on a perverted religious/social immorality... it's time for them to move beyond the entrenched mind set and learn that the world is full of diversity and people different from themselves and adapt their behavior rather than demand everyone else to alter their society to fit one that is uncivilized at best.  

[Morch]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

 

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas
Before the War, Gaza’s Leaders Were Deeply Unpopular—but an Israeli Crackdown Could Change That

The argument that the entire population of Gaza can be held responsible for Hamas’s actions is quickly discredited when one looks at the facts. Arab Barometer, a research network where we serve as co-principal investigators, conducted a survey in Gaza and the West Bank days before the Israel-Hamas war broke out...  Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.

https://archive.ph/9OXlT#selection-1827.0-1831.308

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

 

Yes, and?

 

If this is one of your usual twisting, nitpicking attempts to claim/imply I said something - give it a rest.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Ignorance would not be a legitimate excuse... but if you must... do it.

In the mean time I do NOT hate nor am I bigoted toward Palestinians... however, I do not especially like a nation who has done absolutely nothing for the betterment of their own people and blame a different nation for their woes based on a perverted religious/social immorality... it's time for them to move beyond the entrenched mind set and learn that the world is full of diversity and people different from themselves and adapt their behavior rather than demand everyone else to alter their society to fit one that is uncivilized at best.  

Strange that you should ignore the brutal israeli occupation of over 30 years while criticizing the Palestinians for not behaving in a more acceptable manner for you.

 

If you are not hating all Palestinians it would behoove you to refrain from saying things like "Palestinians don't know the meaning of living in peace... Palestinians oppresses themselves with their hate and bigotry relegating themselves to their poverty and ignorance... what have they proposed to build their community... nothing."

 

[Morch]

57 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The poster you quoted seems to not realise that without fuel the Gaza power plant is unable to function, the desalination plants are unable to function, and that it is the israelis that have refused to allow fuel in.

 

Also, there are apparently no safe places in Gaza to shelter. Everywhere is reportedly being bombed or shelled, and Palestinian children continue to die.

 

I think launching them rocket requires electricity as well...? Same goes staying in deep underground facilities.

 

As for the 'nowhere safe' nonsense - if what you claim was true, death toll would be higher.

[Morch]

52 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Interesting that you should reference hate and bigotry when your post ( and that of certain other posters ) is IMO full of hate and bigotry towards Palestinians.

It is because of that that I no longer see such posts. It'd be a shame to have to ignore yours as well, but easily done if necessary.

 

"It'd be a shame to have to ignore yours as well, but easily done if necessary."

 

Teaser....

 

 

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Until there is a fundamental change in attitude (hate and bigotry) toward jews by the muslim arabs nothing will change... most of the western world that has not been infiltrated by arab muslims support letting Israel live in peace...

 

47 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Ignorance would not be a legitimate excuse... but if you must... do it.

In the mean time I do NOT hate nor am I bigoted toward Palestinians... however, I do not especially like a nation who has done absolutely nothing for the betterment of their own people and blame a different nation for their woes based on a perverted religious/social immorality... it's time for them to move beyond the entrenched mind set and learn that the world is full of diversity and people different from themselves and adapt their behavior rather than demand everyone else to alter their society to fit one that is uncivilized at best.  

And yet you claim not to be bigoted.

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, and?

 

If this is one of your usual twisting, nitpicking attempts to claim/imply I said something - give it a rest.

 

Well, you had earlier claimed that Palestinians had voted in Hamas in Gaza when actually it was a coalition of Hamas and the PA that formed the government. I believe Hamas got 44% and the PA got 41%. So that was false, and not insignificantly.Is my calling you out on that an example of my "nitpicking"?  But in your latest post you claimed among other things

"There is no wall-to-wall support among Palestinians for a two-state solution - regardless of your 'definitely'. And that's referencing the general public. Considering Hamas is not really into this, and that it's support base is significant, that would make your assertion out of touch with reality."

According to this poll, support for Hamas in Gaza was at 24% were an election to be held. I guess you can call that significant if you like. I would call it pitiful.

And support for the eradication of Israel was at 20% among Gazans, and as is to be expected that was concentrated among Hamas supporters.

There's a lot more data in there that's basically unfavorable to Hamas. You might want to actually read about the report instead of indulging in a Pavlovian reaction.

[Yellowtail]

13 hours ago, deejai33 said:

Glad its not true.  

As am I. 

13 hours ago, deejai33 said:

Maybe you are correct and gazans are not lacking water, food, electricity.

Are there suffering Gazans? Absolutely. Many are without food, running water and electricity. But clearly, they have enough water to drink, or they would be dead by now. People can typically for 3-5 days without water. And notice when you look at photos and video, they look pretty clean, so apparently, they are bathing. Would they like more and or better food to eat and to run the AC, no doubt. 

 

13 hours ago, deejai33 said:

I do not know those stats you ask about.  I did see gaza has some water desalination plants.  But the fuel has run out.  Water comes from Israel and West bank supplies in the main.  I don't know for sure however.

 

I don't know much about it either, but I do generally believe what I can see. 

 

If they had no food, water and power, they would have surrendered by now. Particularly the one that so not support hamas. 

 

 

13 hours ago, deejai33 said:

 

But everyday, most news sources report gaza has run out, or is about to run out of essentials.  Do you read that, and say 'no, not true'.

 

And many news sources say it's not true. "You pays your money and you takes your chances." Most news sources say any number of things every day that are not true. You disagree, whatever. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

13 hours ago, deejai33 said:

I'm not sure which is more humane.  Bombing civilians or deliberately starving them.

 

How do we decide which is more humane ?

Really? Bombing people often kills them instantly, or within a few days. People starving have a month or two to surrender and be fed. 

13 hours ago, deejai33 said:

You say Hamas has plenty of essential supplies.   They are unaffected by the cutting off of life essentials.  Sounds possibly accurate, they have guns and power over the civilians, so they grab what they want.  OK I agree hamas is not affected by the israeli cutting off.

We agree. 

13 hours ago, deejai33 said:

In that case why does israel continue to do it ?  Answer that ?  Not to deprive hamas operatives as you agree.

 

Just because hamas has plenty of supplies, does not mean they can go on indefinably without being resupplied. 

 

If you can drive the poorly supplied civilians into the safety zones, you can take care of them, and continue to pummel hamas. 

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The poster you quoted seems to not realise that without fuel the Gaza power plant is unable to function, the desalination plants are unable to function, and that it is the israelis that have refused to allow fuel in.

Why should Israel continue to facilitate the killing of their citizens by suppling their enemy? 

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

Also, there are apparently no safe places in Gaza to shelter. Everywhere is reportedly being bombed or shelled, and Palestinian children continue to die.

It's only apparent to some people. 

[Nick Carter icp]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The poster you quoted seems to not realise that without fuel the Gaza power plant is unable to function, the desalination plants are unable to function, and that it is the israelis that have refused to allow fuel in.

 

 

 

   It was just a few short weeks ago that pro Palestinian supporters were celebrating the bombing of a power station inside Israel................a power station which supplied power to the Gaza strip . 

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Re the OP.

According to Al Jazeera the israeli military is carrying out limited incursions into Gaza, but so far not a full scale invasion.

 

Hamas says they repelled some, and are currently fighting another three, but facts will be hard to find at the moment.

 

It has been reported that the bombing has increased over the normal level, along with increased shelling.

A hospital with thousands of sheltering refugees has reportedly been ordered to evacuate, which is not practically possible, and apparently no safe area exists to evacuate to.

Apparent to you anyways.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, and?

 

If this is one of your usual twisting, nitpicking attempts to claim/imply I said something - give it a rest.

You don't really expect more from Sir Linksalot do you? 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

Well, you had earlier claimed that Palestinians had voted in Hamas in Gaza when actually it was a coalition of Hamas and the PA that formed the government. I believe Hamas got 44% and the PA got 41%. So that was false, and not insignificantly.Is my calling you out on that an example of my "nitpicking"?  But in your latest post you claimed among other things

"There is no wall-to-wall support among Palestinians for a two-state solution - regardless of your 'definitely'. And that's referencing the general public. Considering Hamas is not really into this, and that it's support base is significant, that would make your assertion out of touch with reality."

According to this poll, support for Hamas in Gaza was at 24% were an election to be held. I guess you can call that significant if you like. I would call it pitiful.

And support for the eradication of Israel was at 20% among Gazans, and as is to be expected that was concentrated among Hamas supporters.

There's a lot more data in there that's basically unfavorable to Hamas. You might want to actually read about the report instead of indulging in a Pavlovian reaction.

Even if you are correct, there are still about 500,000 civilians supporting hamas and 400,000 that admit they want to eradicate Israel, correct?

 

So, it is your position that these numbers are not significant? 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

Well, you had earlier claimed that Palestinians had voted in Hamas in Gaza when actually it was a coalition of Hamas and the PA that formed the government. I believe Hamas got 44% and the PA got 41%. So that was false, and not insignificantly.Is my calling you out on that an example of my "nitpicking"?  But in your latest post you claimed among other things

"There is no wall-to-wall support among Palestinians for a two-state solution - regardless of your 'definitely'. And that's referencing the general public. Considering Hamas is not really into this, and that it's support base is significant, that would make your assertion out of touch with reality."

According to this poll, support for Hamas in Gaza was at 24% were an election to be held. I guess you can call that significant if you like. I would call it pitiful.

And support for the eradication of Israel was at 20% among Gazans, and as is to be expected that was concentrated among Hamas supporters.

There's a lot more data in there that's basically unfavorable to Hamas. You might want to actually read about the report instead of indulging in a Pavlovian reaction.

 

No.

Your previous comments, and the current one are the all the same - you find something to nitpick, allege posers imply things, and spin this into a whole side-topic. You do the same thing over and over again across multiple topics and discussions. Nothing new. It's amazing you can't seem to post without engaging in such a manner.

 

The % you cite in regard to the elections refers to the general vote. The Palestinian system is a dual one. So in Parliament, Hamas had an overwhelming majority of 74 our of 132. Further, the original government formed right after the elections was a Hamas government, not a unity one. It was only after it became obvious that a Hamas government would pose a huge problem vs. the international community and Israel, that a unity government was formed.

 

The poll you cited does not indicate wall-to-wall support for a two state solution, no matter how you try to spin it. Hamas's rejections of this, by 'virtue' of being more inclined to act on things, means that it punches above it's weight. All the more so when the side handling negotiations is the the PA. This is not very different than how things are in Israel, or maybe anywhere else - harder to mobilize the Center.

 

So much for 'call out', 'false' and the rest of your nonsense. Pavlovian...pffft.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Morch

[Jeff the Chef]

Good morning to all you human beings revelling in killing Hamas fighters and terrorists, Muslins, innocent woman and children, UN aid workers, Jews, Zionists, and any press reporting to the free world from Gaza.

RIP to everybody killed so far, and I hope it's hotter than hell for all the Hamas terrorists in hell, and for all the Israeli forces killing innocent people by bombing and shelling them may you rot in hell to when your time comes.

That should just about pea enough dummies who support violence to further their causes.

Peace is the only way forward.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Most support letting israel live in peace, but they don't support israel not letting the Palestinians also live in peace.

Till israel gives Palestinians a homeland and independence to live as they wish israel will have no peace.

It's not possible to have peace while oppressing an entire people for decades.

 

Just heard on Al Jazeera about the demonstration in London in support of Palestine, and how the tide is turning in British opinion. I didn't see any Palestinian flags, but that could be because I read that one can get arrested for holding one.

 

The world is indeed watching, and the world is not impressed with what it sees in Gaza.

The Jewish Voice for Peace has a large demonstration in Grand Central Station. Biden might be wondering why Jews don't support bombing children to bits.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/200-held-as-jewish-group-shuts-nycs-grand-central-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire/

Jewish Voice for Peace, an anti-Zionist group, protests Israeli strikes on Hamas with banners and slogans saying ‘not in our name,’ and ‘Palestinians should be free’

 

The US got whupped in the UN general assembly with a majority calling for humanitarian relief and a pause in the bombing.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wAZVTlAZM

After rejecting an amendment proposed by Canada and the United States, the General Assembly, by 120 votes in favour 120, 14 against and 45 abstentions, today (27 Oct) adopted a resolution calling for an immediate and sustained humanitarian truce.

[placnx]

16 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What's reliable? "The Ten Point Program was rejected by the more radical hard-line factions of the PLO, which were mainly concerned that the Program could potentially turn into a peace agreement with Israel."

PLO's Ten Point Program - Wikipedia

I don't think so. 

A lot of people call Donald Trump Hitler, and Biden vibrant. 

 

 

Mentioning the Ten Point Program is an obfuscation. It dates from 1974 according to the Wikipedia entry which you cite. At the top of this entry are the following warnings: "This article has multiple issues." "This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards."

 

The Saudi proposal dates from 2002. It is about peace, not rejection. It was rejected immediately by Israel, but at times US presidents have supported it "on paper". Israel has never made a counter offer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

There were some negotiations regarding the Bush Roadmap for Peace end with the Annapolis Conference in 2007, but this went no where since Israel was unwilling to give up control over West Bank borders, vacate settlements, or agree to genuine Palestinian sovereignty. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference

Among the comments by Rabbi Dov Lior of the Yesha Rabbis Council: "Lior further stated that peace would only be achieved by "[cleansing] the country of Arabs and [resettling] them in the countries where they came from."[29]"

 

At present the question is whether Israel will end up digging itself a hole so deep that the world will find ways to force it to end the Greater Israel project.

[Jeff the Chef]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The Jewish Voice for Peace has a large demonstration in Grand Central Station. Biden might be wondering why Jews don't support bombing children to bits.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/200-held-as-jewish-group-shuts-nycs-grand-central-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire/

Jewish Voice for Peace, an anti-Zionist group, protests Israeli strikes on Hamas with banners and slogans saying ‘not in our name,’ and ‘Palestinians should be free’

 

The US got whupped in the UN general assembly with a majority calling for humanitarian relief and a pause in the bombing.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wAZVTlAZM

After rejecting an amendment proposed by Canada and the United States, the General Assembly, by 120 votes in favour 120, 14 against and 45 abstentions, today (27 Oct) adopted a resolution calling for an immediate and sustained humanitarian truce.

The key board warriors of the IDF won't like or agree with that.

[placnx]

17 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I wonder if they let the Arab Muslim on Israel’s Supreme Court use the same bathroom as the Jews....

Each must have an office with its own bathroom, so don't worry.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, placnx said:

Each must have an office with its own bathroom, so don't worry.

You made that up.

[placnx]

Just now, Jingthing said:

You made that up.

What's the point in your gratuitous sniping? Ethnic cleansing is not funny. 

[Nick Carter icp]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

 

Just heard on Al Jazeera about the demonstration in London in support of Palestine, and how the tide is turning in British opinion. I didn't see any Palestinian flags, but that could be because I read that one can get arrested for holding one.

 

The world is indeed watching, and the world is not impressed with what it sees in Gaza.

 

 

   Just for clarification , flags and symbols used for the sole purpose to intimate others  can be illegal, like Hamas flags and Swastikas and the like .

   Anything just used to intimidate others can be an offence .

If people use the Palestinian flag just to intimidate others, it could be an illegal act 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, placnx said:

What's the point in your gratuitous sniping? Ethnic cleansing is not funny. 

Neither is Israel demonizing trolling.