A call for solidarity in the face of recent events in Israel

[snoop1130]

 

Hamas is a radical Islamic terrorist organization, that has openly declared its intention to destroy Israel. They are heavily supported by the extremist Iranian regime which supplies them with weapons, training and funds. Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization by numerous countries, including the United States, all member states of the European Union, Canada, the UK, Australia, and many others.

 

On October 7, 2023, Hamas launched a massive, monstrous, unprovoked attack on the civilian population of Israel during the Jewish festival of Simchat Torah. This ongoing assault has seen hundreds of terrorists infiltrate Israeli territory by land, air and sea, specifically targeting Israeli civilian communities near the Gaza Strip. More than 3,500 rockets were launched at towns and cities across the country, with the explicit aim of causing harm to innocent civilians.

 

According to medical authorities, the tragic toll stands at over 1,200 lives lost, with thousands more suffering various degrees of injuries. Additionally, at least 400 individuals have been classified as missing or taken captive by Hamas, forcibly transported to Gaza. Regrettably, it is anticipated that these numbers will continue to rise. Tragically, among the casualties, there are several foreign nationals, including 22 Thai workers who lost their lives, several who sustained injuries, and an unknown number of workers who were kidnapped and taken to Gaza.

 

Caption: Photo by Facebook page Israel in Thailand

 

Full story: Thai PBS 2023-10-13

 

- Cigna offers a range of visa-compliant plans that meet the minimum requirement of medical treatment, including COVID-19, up to THB 3m. For more information on all expat health insurance plans click here.

 

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[Denim]

I thought I was familiar  with the history  of this conflict but having read many posts on AN concerning recent events , I am now not so sure.

 

So , if there are any AN posters who feel passionately about this , and can recap the viewpoints of both sides impartiality,  I would be interested  to read them in order to see if there are any indisputable facts that everyone  can agree on.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, Denim said:

I thought I was familiar  with the history  of this conflict but having read many posts on AN concerning recent events , I am now not so sure.

 

So , if there are any AN posters who feel passionately about this , and can recap the viewpoints of both sides impartiality,  I would be interested  to read them in order to see if there are any indisputable facts that everyone  can agree on.

 

Thanks in advance.

These sort of posts are all over the many parallel topics currently dealing with the war, or anything semi-related. What's the point of doing it all over again on yet another topic?

 

Plus. each side got it's own narrative, with its own blind spots, incorrect facts, fake accounts and what not. Serves only to carry on endless heated (and often, abusive) 'debates'.

 

At the end of the day it matters very little.

Almost no one changes his mind, not many points are conceded, even.

And the illusion that if one of the sides 'wins' the argument this will somehow settle things? Nonsense. It's not like either Israel or the Palestinians will fold even if it somehow could be clearly shown they're wrong.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Morch

[Jingthing]

19 minutes ago, Denim said:

I thought I was familiar  with the history  of this conflict but having read many posts on AN concerning recent events , I am now not so sure.

 

So , if there are any AN posters who feel passionately about this , and can recap the viewpoints of both sides impartiality,  I would be interested  to read them in order to see if there are any indisputable facts that everyone  can agree on.

 

Thanks in advance.

Competing narratives.

Suffice it to say that things are now FUBAR now more than ever. 

[MikeandDow]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Competing narratives.

Suffice it to say that things are now FUBAR now more than ever. 

agree

[Denim]

So far I agree with the answers I have received. 

 

So I have not missed anything.

FUBAR is what I had concluded also.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Denim

[smedly]

Thailand is supportive simply because the deep south

 

not so with Russia on Ukraine because although similar it doesn't involve muslims

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

On October 7, 2023, Hamas launched a massive, monstrous, unprovoked attack on the civilian population of Israel during the Jewish festival of Simchat Torah.

LOL. The usual pro israel propaganda that ignores the 30 years of provocation by israel.

 

Reports on Al Jazeera of deaths by live fire from the israeli military and settlers in the West Bank.

Is israel trying to provoke an uprising in the West Bank, so they have an excuse to bomb West Bank Palestinians into oblivion as well? Is that why america has been sending more munitions to israel- because they don't have enough to bomb the West Bank into oblivion as well as Gaza? I was wondering why america would need to send more.

 

Has netanyahu miscalculated the west's response? A very large protest in New York against israel, reportedly including anti zionist Jewish groups. Even one Irish politician coming out openly against the israeli attack on Gaza, and I'm sure more to follow. Even the UN is starting to point out israel's war crimes.

 

Massive demonstration in Bagdad. Seems to me that there will be many willing recruits to attack israel on the northern border. I'm sure  that Syria is looking to see if they can join in.

While the neutralised leaders of a few Arab nations will probably try to stop becoming involved, the population's outrage may force them to get involved.

 

The longer the siege continues, the more difficult it will become for western politicians to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear.

The order for over 1 million Gazan's to relocate in 24 hours is an example of israel's over reach, as it's obviously impossible for 1 million people to relocate in 24 hours, not forgetting those patients that are unable to be moved in hospitals.

After those able to reach the south, where will they shelter, what will they eat, what will they drink? Is israel sending tents, water and food?

The world will be watching, the world is watching.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, Denim said:

I thought I was familiar  with the history  of this conflict but having read many posts on AN concerning recent events , I am now not so sure.

 

So , if there are any AN posters who feel passionately about this , and can recap the viewpoints of both sides impartiality,  I would be interested  to read them in order to see if there are any indisputable facts that everyone  can agree on.

 

Thanks in advance.

The facts are pretty simple.

On November 29 1947 the UN decided that they could partition Palestine against the wishes of the Palestinians that lived there for generations, and gave one part to israel.

Arab countries disagreed and went to war, but were defeated.

The Palestinians have fought back ever since, but were abandoned by the international community ( perhaps because of guilt or american pressure )

Israelis illegally occupy the area the UN gave to the Palestinians, build illegal settlements, and oppress the Palestinians in their own land.

Last week the Palestinians fought back.

The israelis are bombing Gaza and the international community is ( so far ) ignoring the plight of the Gazans ( perhaps they should call themselves Ukrainians and they would get unlimited support ).

 

If I were to attempt some opinion about the future, it would be that many western people will see the israeli siege for what it is and turn against israel, Arabs will join the fight ( with or without the consent of their governments ), the conflict will spread to soft israeli targets outside israel, and the situation will continue to poison the Middle East ( and the wider world ) till one side or the other is eliminated, but lets remember the Palestinians are reproducing faster than israelis, so time is on their side.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

I just caught part of Upfront interview on Al Jazeera

 

UpFront

We challenge a Hamas spokesperson and an Israeli official on violations of international law in the current Israel-Gaza war.

 

The israeli, who's name I missed, claimed that they would end the conflict and allow food, water etc as long as every Hamas person surrendered, but unless they did so the attack would continue. He was smiling when he said it, so perhaps even he knew it was never going to happen.

He didn't say if they would rebuild everything they destroyed.

 

He also said something about how a big tent city with food, water etc would be built ( I think ) in the Sinai for all the Gazans that left Gaza. He didn't explain how they could leave when israel is bombing the border crossing to Egypt.

[thaibeachlovers]

The Russian ambassador to the UN is speaking and pointing out the west's hypocrisy regarding Ukraine vs Gaza, which is well founded. He also said that the situation is the fault of the US that uses it's veto to protect israel, which I agree with.

Unlike the peace loving americans, he says that Russia is calling for a ceasefire.

So far, no official american has called for a ceasefire, that I have heard.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just watched israeli mobile artillery firing on Gaza ( on Al Jazeera ), which puts the lie to israel's claim of only firing on Hamas targets. Mobile artillery is not a precision weapon.

 

Meanwhile the West Bank Palestinians are becoming restive. Settlers are reportedly killing Palestinians, backed by the israeli army.

 

The flash point of Al Aqsa is full of israeli soldiers- what could possibly go wrong with that?

 

The world is watching, the world will not forget.

[RichardColeman]

My opinion is that there will never be peace in the region and a two state solution will never work, they both hate each other and their religious books appear to tell them to kill each other. It really is time to pick a side - even if only the lesser of the two evils. As Islam is causing chaos throughout the world even without Israel hitting them and Israel very raely causes problems outside their region, I think Israel should be supported and Islam banned in the world purely for the safety of the world's future

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

55 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

I think Israel should be supported and Islam banned in the world purely for the safety of the world's future

Had Israel never been created by the UN do you think the same problems would have happened? I do not.

 

Ban Islam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck telling the 2 billion Muslims that their religion is banned. Are you volunteering to tell them?

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I just caught part of Upfront interview on Al Jazeera

 

UpFront

We challenge a Hamas spokesperson and an Israeli official on violations of international law in the current Israel-Gaza war.

 

The israeli, who's name I missed, claimed that they would end the conflict and allow food, water etc as long as every Hamas person surrendered, but unless they did so the attack would continue. He was smiling when he said it, so perhaps even he knew it was never going to happen.

He didn't say if they would rebuild everything they destroyed.

 

He also said something about how a big tent city with food, water etc would be built ( I think ) in the Sinai for all the Gazans that left Gaza. He didn't explain how they could leave when israel is bombing the border crossing to Egypt.

Without the name you failed to take note of, the individual expressing the opinion could be anyone.

 

They might even be someone who was invited to comment solely on the basis of the opinions they hold.

 

Perhaps more moderate or nuanced opinions were not what the AJ program directors were looking for.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I just caught part of Upfront interview on Al Jazeera

 

UpFront

We challenge a Hamas spokesperson and an Israeli official on violations of international law in the current Israel-Gaza war.

 

The israeli, who's name I missed, claimed that they would end the conflict and allow food, water etc as long as every Hamas person surrendered, but unless they did so the attack would continue. He was smiling when he said it, so perhaps even he knew it was never going to happen.

He didn't say if they would rebuild everything they destroyed.

 

He also said something about how a big tent city with food, water etc would be built ( I think ) in the Sinai for all the Gazans that left Gaza. He didn't explain how they could leave when israel is bombing the border crossing to Egypt.

 

And what did the Hamas spokesman say? Or did you intentionally leave that part out?

[Morch]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just watched israeli mobile artillery firing on Gaza ( on Al Jazeera ), which puts the lie to israel's claim of only firing on Hamas targets. Mobile artillery is not a precision weapon.

 

Meanwhile the West Bank Palestinians are becoming restive. Settlers are reportedly killing Palestinians, backed by the israeli army.

 

The flash point of Al Aqsa is full of israeli soldiers- what could possibly go wrong with that?

 

The world is watching, the world will not forget.

 

Guess you're not really up to date on military matters. Artillery nowadays can certainly fire precise ammunition. I don't think Israel claims to fire 'only on Hamas targets' in the sense you imply. That the point of telling everyone to evacuate.

 

[nobodysfriend]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

things are now FUBAR

sometimes I really wish some posters here would not use these abbreviations ...

What does FUBAR mean?

 

 

extremely bad or certain to fail or be defeated or destroyed. Fubar is short for <deleted> Up Beyond All Recognition: If you don't have a good excuse, then you are fubar. The production apparently had its FUBAR moments. Fewer examples.

Edited October 14, 2023 by nobodysfriend

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

sometimes I really wish some posters here would not use these abbreviations ...

What does FUBAR mean?

 

 

extremely bad or certain to fail or be defeated or destroyed. Fubar is short for <deleted> Up Beyond All Recognition: If you don't have a good excuse, then you are fubar. The production apparently had its FUBAR moments. Fewer examples.

Anyone that served in the military would understand that, as that is a common occurrence in military life.

 

For those that didn't serve, google is their friend.

[ourmanflint]

On 10/13/2023 at 3:00 PM, Denim said:

I thought I was familiar  with the history  of this conflict but having read many posts on AN concerning recent events , I am now not so sure.

 

So , if there are any AN posters who feel passionately about this , and can recap the viewpoints of both sides impartiality,  I would be interested  to read them in order to see if there are any indisputable facts that everyone  can agree on.

 

Thanks in advance.

Salient points are killing people face to face like Hamas is totally barbaric, but bombing 1000's of innocent children and civilians remotely is "A OK!"

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, ourmanflint said:

Salient points are killing people face to face like Hamas is totally barbaric, but bombing 1000's of innocent children and civilians remotely is "A OK!"

The salient point would be whether they are deliberately targeted or not. The Hamas attack obviously did. Israel's bombing attacks, while carrying a high death toll, are not quite the same. The opposite of this, by the way, would indiscriminate fire at civilians (as in Hamas rocket launches), again - Israel's bombing attacks do not fall under this category. To add, Hamas digs in among civilian population (not to mention calling them to remain in place, or trying to prevent them from evacuating) this too can be an infraction.

 

International law about these things is not quite what people expect, sometimes. Unfair, perhaps, tilted to favor more advanced nations, but it is what it is.

[MikeandDow]

On 10/14/2023 at 7:02 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Had Israel never been created by the UN do you think the same problems would have happened? I do not.

 

Ban Islam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck telling the 2 billion Muslims that their religion is banned. Are you volunteering to tell them?

read your history  The UN did not creat Israel

The United Nations divided Israel and the state of Palestine in 1948 through a plan that never went into full effect because Israel declared independence before the plan could be fully in place. While the UN was going to create Israel, Israel declared independence once the British left.

[MikeandDow]

Just now, Morch said:

The salient point would be whether they are deliberately targeted or not. The Hamas attack obviously did. Israel's bombing attacks, while carrying a high death toll, are not quite the same. The opposite of this, by the way, would indiscriminate fire at civilians (as in Hamas rocket launches), again - Israel's bombing attacks do not fall under this category. To add, Hamas digs in among civilian population (not to mention calling them to remain in place, or trying to prevent them from evacuating) this too can be an infraction.

 

International law about these things is not quite what people expect, sometimes. Unfair, perhaps, tilted to favor more advanced nations, but it is what it is.

International law has no teeth very very hard to prosecute  and is ignored by israel  look at the settements in the west bank as an example

[Morch]

1 minute ago, MikeandDow said:

International law has no teeth very very hard to prosecute  and is ignored by israel  look at the settements in the west bank as an example

Some aspects of international law are indeed routinely ignored by Israel, some are not. When it comes to such attacks on Hamas, in the Gaza Strip, Israel is generally on firmer ground (legally).

 

The current circumstances created a situation where Israel is even more willing to ignore such legal restrictions, So far this did not go beyond things that were done before, just on a larger scale.

 

 

[ourmanflint]

23 hours ago, MikeandDow said:

read your history  The UN did not creat Israel

The United Nations divided Israel and the state of Palestine in 1948 through a plan that never went into full effect because Israel declared independence before the plan could be fully in place. While the UN was going to create Israel, Israel declared independence once the British left.

Brief history lesson...

 

in 1915/16 the British promised the whole area including Israel to the Arab nations in return for helping to overthrow the Ottoman Empire ( think Lawrence of Arabia), then later in 1916 Billionaire banker Lord Rothschild persuaded Lord Balfour to issue a declaration stating a "home" for Jewish people in Israel, totally disregarding the earlier promise to Arab League.

This is the root of never ending acrimony. The British betrayal of the Arab league on the behest of banker Rothschild, a sordid part of British history really

[MikeandDow]

7 minutes ago, ourmanflint said:

Brief history lesson...

 

in 1915/16 the British promised the whole area including Israel to the Arab nations in return for helping to overthrow the Ottoman Empire ( think Lawrence of Arabia), then later in 1916 Billionaire banker Lord Rothschild persuaded Lord Balfour to issue a declaration stating a "home" for Jewish people in Israel, totally disregarding the earlier promise to Arab League.

This is the root of never ending acrimony. The British betrayal of the Arab league on the behest of banker Rothschild, a sordid part of British history really

you dont need to give me a history lesson i am very well aware of the history of Isreal

 

The Balfour Declaration was a public pledge by Britain, declaring its aim to establish "a national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine.

The statement came in the form of a letter from Britain's then foreign secretary, Arthur Balfour, addressed to Lionel Walter Rothschild, a figurehead of the British Jewish community.

But the declaration was by no means formulated and decided upon overnight - rather, it had been in the works for years, involved many people and was drafted numerous times before being sent out.

The pledge is generally viewed as one of the main catalysts of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948 and the creation of the Zionist state of Israel.

Rothschild did not persuaded Balfour  he was the reciver as the figurehead of the British Jewish community

 

please try to get you facts correct

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by MikeandDow