Retirement Extension

[DrJack54]

2 hours ago, paddypower said:

For background - sometimes I don't need the pension monies, so I leave them accumulate  and then transfer 2 months worth. This has freaked out the IO. she received the copy of my Canadian bank account, saw this and, to quote her : ''why did you not have any pension income coming into Thailand in that month?''.

You are unaware of the financial requirements.

You require 65k+ transfers EVERY month.

Also helps if approx same date. 

[OJAS]

6 hours ago, paddypower said:

she received the copy of my Canadian bank account

 

Does this mean that you are a Canadian national and/or your pension income is sourced in Canada? If so you might be able to obtain an income letter each year from the Canadian Embassy in Bangkok (at a cost of 50 CAD currently) in lieu of making monthly 65k bank transfers:

 

https://www.international.gc.ca/country-pays/thailand-thailande/bangkok-info.aspx?lang=eng#NS

 

(see final line under Notarial services heading - might nevertheless be worthwhile checking with the Embassy that this letter is aimed at satisfying Immigration requirements for annual retirement extensions, though).

 

Edited January 3 by OJAS

[paddypower]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:34 PM, OJAS said:

 

Does this mean that you are a Canadian national and/or your pension income is sourced in Canada? If so you might be able to obtain an income letter each year from the Canadian Embassy in Bangkok (at a cost of 50 CAD currently) in lieu of making monthly 65k bank transfers:

 

https://www.international.gc.ca/country-pays/thailand-thailande/bangkok-info.aspx?lang=eng#NS

 

(see final line under Notarial services heading - might nevertheless be worthwhile checking with the Embassy that this letter is aimed at satisfying Immigration requirements for annual retirement extensions, though).

 

I met a brick wall yesterday - aka dope on a rope, at IO. he knew only one mantra ''65k every month or 800k, the latter under the restrictive rules for withdrawal in part. the 65k mantra conversation went like this: me: ''please refer to my hard copy of 2.22.5 where it states that a combination of income  (says nothing about monthly income amounts) AND a savings deposit totals at least 800k.

the IO: ''i don't know what that is. but you must transfer 65k every month. if you miss a month, you don't qualify for the extension. example if you deposit 65k in one month, nothing in the next month and 1 million in the 3rd month - you don't qualify''. my conclusion: they could consider sending these guys on annual training courses, or have a users manual. :)

[paddypower]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:47 PM, DrJack54 said:

You are unaware of the financial requirements.

You require 65k+ transfers EVERY month.

Also helps if approx same date. 

with respect, I believe that your interpretation, similar to that of the IO, is incorrect.  see the regs - at 2.22.(5)  or my detailed post below.

Edited January 6 by paddypower
spell

[hotandsticky]

23 minutes ago, paddypower said:

with respect, I believe that your interpretation, similar to that of the IO, is incorrect.  see the regs - at 2.22.(5)  or my detailed post below.

 

The IO, and @DrJack54are both spor on 

[DrJack54]

48 minutes ago, paddypower said:

with respect, I believe that your interpretation, similar to that of the IO, is incorrect.  see the regs - at 2.22.(5)  or my detailed post below.

First up I was not referring to combination method.

BTW not all immigration offices accept combination method.

The income part of the combination method needs to same amount each month. 

Here is a thread.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1298772-combination-method-for-o-visa-extension-based-on-retirement/

[paddypower]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:31 PM, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Immigration changed from 800k per annum to 65k each (and every) month sometime ago.

 

Buriram and Jomtien will not accept any deviation from this.

Yet the IO dowloaded and gave me a hard copy of what he said was the latest regulation 2.22  Item 5 is still listed as an option, can you quote any source which says this option was taken away, please? . after quoting me chapter and verse about the 65k per month rule - I waved my 800k deposit book and he just about creamed his jeans. He said - ignore the savings book. Just get the 800k bank book updated and bring me a certification letter from the bank, plus all the other documents which he has always asked for. any comments, anyone? tia

Edited January 6 by paddypower
spell

[hotandsticky]

7 minutes ago, paddypower said:

Yet the IO dowloaded and gave me a hard copy of what he said was the latest regulation 2.22  Item 5 is still listed as an option, can you quote any source which says this option was taken away, please? . after quoting me chapter and verse about the 65k per month rule - I waved my 800k deposit book and he just about creamed his jeans. He said - ignore the savings book. Just get the 800k bank book updated and bring me a certification letter from the bank, plus all the other documents which he has always asked for. any comments, anyone? tia

 

 

Look back over previous threads if you need evidence of the change. Probably a couple oy years ago now.....I used to transfer quarterly but was told that monthly was required - preferably the same date each month .

[paddypower]

excuse the need for another piece of advice. We have a very good friend a Thai resort owner, who liaises  with a number of her expat customers living in our village. Her advice, today was to follow what the IO asked us to do. ''Don't spend 16k fee each, on a Visa Agent.  Go visit IO next week, present the 800k book plus bank certification letter. After receiving the visa extension, you can cash in the entire 800k right away''. Is that correct. ? Based on what I am now learning the latest rules are, if the 800k is no longer allowed, then there should be no requirement to keep any of it intact immediately after obtaining the visa extension.

[CartagenaWarlock]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:07 PM, Red Phoenix said:

When it is confirmed that you simultaneously need to comply with the requirements for BOTH methods, during the full year prior to the new 1-year extension applications, you could of course do the following. 

And that is to exit Thailand without a Re-Entry Permit close to your permission to stay expiry date.

On return you will be stamped in VisaExempt and receive a 30-day permission to stay. 

And then - when having at least 21 days (CM requirement) left on your permission to stay - you simply apply for a NEW 90-day Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement.

When doing so the +800K (with foreign origins proven or already long-time seasoned on your personal Thai bank-account) only need to be on your bank-account at moment of application. 

Of course there are some drawbacks on doing this:

# Having to exit and re-enter Thailand

# Having to re-do your TM-30 notification after having re-entered

# You would be applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa, and hence you would be under consideration after acceptance of the application.  And so that means two visits to the Imm Office before you get the Visa stamp and then 2 months later being able to apply for the 1-year extension based on the 800K 'funds in bank' method. 

# The annual date for your 1-year Permission to stay would change (which might be either convenient or inconvenient).

OMG, what a convoluted way to live in a foreign country!
If I were him, I would get an agent and pay him 12,500 baht (Pattaya rate), park my money outside Thailand to get at least 5% (40K for an 800K deposit), and share my luck of being able to access dollars with unfortunate people who could not do so due to no fault of their own. "Win Win" for everybody. 

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, paddypower said:

After receiving the visa extension, you can cash in the entire 800k right away''. Is that correct. ?

 

No, it is not. You are required to maintain an 800k bank balance for at least 3 months after the date of your retirement extension application. Thereafter you can reduce it to a minimum of 400k, but only until 2 months before the date of your next annual retirement extension application, by which time the balance should have been increased to 800k again for the next 5 months. Then repeat this cycle ad infinitum.

 

Edited January 6 by OJAS

[DrJack54]

1 hour ago, paddypower said:

After receiving the visa extension, you can cash in the entire 800k right away''. Is that correct. ?

No.

[Liquorice]

On 1/3/2024 at 5:19 PM, paddypower said:

I am curious as to this interpretation of the financial requirements. several posters have referred to the need to have 65k x 12 month's income. I wish to switch fully to the income method from the 800k deposit, (the latter method which i have used for the past 25 years). I think I am getting a misinterpretation of the 2.22 regs.

 

2 hours ago, paddypower said:

Yet the IO dowloaded and gave me a hard copy of what he said was the latest regulation 2.22  Item 5 is still listed as an option, can you quote any source which says this option was taken away, please? .

Not sure which order you're referencing and quoting from re item 5, but if your intention is to switch to the income method from the funds method, then the latest order concerning the requirements for using income is in the updated amendment (Dec 2018) to order 138/2557 (July 2014). 

Amend 138-2557 (2018 ) clause 2.18-2.22 for Thai bank income ENG.pdf 

Scroll down to section 2.22 retirement - income method.

Evidence showing income not less than 65,000 baht monthly includes:

1) Evidence showing pension - a letter of certification on deposit in the bank in Thailand and bank statement showing money transfer from overseas every month for the past 12 months. Except in a case where the applicant's retirement is less than I year, the evidence must be from the month of retirement. For example, the retirement is started in October 2018, the applicant must show pension payment evidence from November 2018 and pension payment evidence of the whole 12 months is required for the next year or;

2) Income certification certified by the embassy or consular

 

As a Canadian, you should be obtaining an Income certification letter from your Embassy.
I'm guessing you're not of pensionable age and in receipt of a pension, and therefore cannot obtain said letter.

 

 

Edited January 6 by Liquorice

[Liquorice]

2 hours ago, paddypower said:

Based on what I am now learning the latest rules are, if the 800k is no longer allowed, then there should be no requirement to keep any of it intact immediately after obtaining the visa extension.

No, and I think someone is confusing that with an extension based on Thai spouse, which is only 400K funds, which can be wholly withdrawn immediately after the extension is granted.

 

For retirement using the 800K funds method, the latest requirement is order 35-2561 (Jan 2019).

Section 2.22, item (4).

35-2561 (2019 (changed clause 2.22 of 327-2557 ENG.pdf 

 

[paddypower]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:31 PM, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Immigration changed from 800k per annum to 65k each (and every) month sometime ago.

 

Buriram and Jomtien will not accept any deviation from this.

Ive asked this question, elsewhere. But, unable to find the source - the public announcement where the regs were changed. Can you recollect where? Many people confirm what you write. After 25 years here, I am still naive enough to go to the IO website and assume that it is up to date. PS: ignore this post - thanks for the new reference to the 800K reg.

Edited January 7 by paddypower
edit

[paddypower]

18 hours ago, paddypower said:

with respect, I believe that your interpretation, similar to that of the IO, is incorrect.  see the regs - at 2.22.(5)  or my detailed post below.

I stand corrected. Thanks Dr Jack & others.

[proton]

14 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

No, it is not. You are required to maintain an 800k bank balance for at least 3 months after the date of your retirement extension application. Thereafter you can reduce it to a minimum of 400k, but only until 2 months before the date of your next annual retirement extension application, by which time the balance should have been increased to 800k again for the next 5 months. Then repeat this cycle ad infinitum.

 

 

The cheaters keeping no money in the banks here don't have this abiding by the law nonsense of course, via bribery through an agent.

Edited January 7 by proton

[couchpotato]

19 minutes ago, proton said:

 

The cheaters keeping no money in the banks here don't have this abiding by the law nonsense of course, via bribery through an agent.

And why does that bother you..up to them.

[paddypower]

6 minutes ago, proton said:

 

The cheaters keeping no money in the banks here don't have this abiding by the law nonsense of course, via bribery through an agent.

absolutely right. but I don't want to 'cheat' not because I am cheap, but b/c it's best to avoid being compromised, when dealing with anything as important as the ability to retire here (peacefully). That said, I have all these pieces of information from trusted forum members, and yet I cannot put together a plan for my and my wife's situation, going forward into 2024.. any advice would be welcome:

 We go to IO next week, following the advice of a friend/visa agent. (interestingly, she has never heard of the bribery by agents, for NST ex pats, as one of her friends works at the provincial immigration office 'IO') .  I have 800k in the bank, wife and I both have IO visas, since 1999, a certified marriage cert and all the other necessary papers. Regardless of the variables/different practices that I read of, around different parts of Thailand's IO's - I am guaranteed that I will get our 2 visa extended for 12 months. For 2024/5 I plan to switch to the income method. The IO I spoke with last week was very confused as to how many months bank statements he would need, when we came back to extend our visas in Jan 2025. He said he would need from Sept - Dec 2023 . which would be problematic - as my Can. bank account access was locked, the final few days of Dec 2023.

So, there is no record of any pension income being transferred to Thailand, in Dec 2023.

Also, he was quite direct in saying that he would accept the 800k basis but that he did not like dealing with the monthly 65k basis. and...he's the only officer who deals with extensions and he has 'form'. For Jan2024 and every months thereafter, I will transfer 65k to Thailand. My understand from Dr Jack and Sticky and others is that I have to leave the 800k untouched for 3 months. My question is, after 3 moths can I cash it in 100% ? Thanks to all for your patience!

[paddypower]

13 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

And why does that bother you..up to them.

and.... since these expats do not have to present proof of income  or the 400k/800k option. would you live, worry-free - maybe that visa stamp is not kosher?

Edited January 7 by paddypower
spell

[couchpotato]

13 minutes ago, paddypower said:

and.... since these expats do not have to present proof of income  or the 400k/800k option. would you live, worry-free - maybe that visa stamp is not kosher?

Once again its up to them..why do you have to worry about it for them.

[Felton Jarvis]

19 hours ago, paddypower said:

I met a brick wall yesterday - aka dope on a rope, at IO. he knew only one mantra ''65k every month or 800k, the latter under the restrictive rules for withdrawal in part. the 65k mantra conversation went like this: me: ''please refer to my hard copy of 2.22.5 where it states that a combination of income  (says nothing about monthly income amounts) AND a savings deposit totals at least 800k.

the IO: ''i don't know what that is. but you must transfer 65k every month. if you miss a month, you don't qualify for the extension. example if you deposit 65k in one month, nothing in the next month and 1 million in the 3rd month - you don't qualify''. my conclusion: they could consider sending these guys on annual training courses, or have a users manual. :)

"Dope on a rope" accurately describes many IO personnel. Thinking outside the box or knowing basic arithmetic is a bit beyond their pay grade.

[proton]

2 hours ago, couchpotato said:

And why does that bother you..up to them.

 

As said before because it led to the rule change of legals having to keep the cash in the bank all the time, all for 3 months after extension then half after that until 2 months prior again. Done in an attempt to thwart the cheaters paying bribes but only inconveniencing legals and largely ineffective against the cheats. They need to start cancelling any extensions with no proof of funds.

[paddypower]

2 hours ago, couchpotato said:

Once again its up to them..why do you have to worry about it for them.

Let me draw pictures, to explain my post. I'm not worried about any body or anything. Reread my previous post, if you want clarity. To quote, for the mentally challenged: but I don't want to 'cheat' not because I am cheap, but b/c it's best to avoid being compromised, when dealing with anything as important as the ability to retire here (peacefully). (end quote) 😉

[paddypower]

17 hours ago, Liquorice said:

 

Not sure which order you're referencing and quoting from re item 5, but if your intention is to switch to the income method from the funds method, then the latest order concerning the requirements for using income is in the updated amendment (Dec 2018) to order 138/2557 (July 2014). 

Amend 138-2557 (2018 ) clause 2.18-2.22 for Thai bank income ENG.pdf 89.42 kB · 4 downloads  

Scroll down to section 2.22 retirement - income method.

Evidence showing income not less than 65,000 baht monthly includes:

1) Evidence showing pension - a letter of certification on deposit in the bank in Thailand and bank statement showing money transfer from overseas every month for the past 12 months. Except in a case where the applicant's retirement is less than I year, the evidence must be from the month of retirement. For example, the retirement is started in October 2018, the applicant must show pension payment evidence from November 2018 and pension payment evidence of the whole 12 months is required for the next year or;

2) Income certification certified by the embassy or consular

 

As a Canadian, you should be obtaining an Income certification letter from your Embassy.
I'm guessing you're not of pensionable age and in receipt of a pension, and therefore cannot obtain said letter.

 

 

Thanks I printed that out and parsed it, carefully. I'd like to ask your patience - on the following : is there any uncertainty (which, no doubt will be left up to 'my immigration officer) : when I apply for an extension in the next year? As I will ask to be considered under 2.22 clauses 1, 2 and 3.  Clause 3 is a standalone condition, 65k a month, with no cross references to or from clause 5. Does that mean I do not have to follow the term deposit restrictions at #4 and #5? Bottom line, is I want my money released the day after I get my extension, next week. 

[brianburi]

55 minutes ago, paddypower said:

Thanks I printed that out and parsed it, carefully. I'd like to ask your patience - on the following : is there any uncertainty (which, no doubt will be left up to 'my immigration officer) : when I apply for an extension in the next year? As I will ask to be considered under 2.22 clauses 1, 2 and 3.  Clause 3 is a standalone condition, 65k a month, with no cross references to or from clause 5. Does that mean I do not have to follow the term deposit restrictions at #4 and #5? Bottom line, is I want my money released the day after I get my extension, next week. 

Not a great idea to go quoting rules and clauses to Immigration Officers.  You will soon get short shrift,  I tried it even saying I would report them to Div 5 HQ.  I was told to leave the building and not come back.

Our office in our province does not accept income or combo methods, just the bank deposits for both retirement and marriage extensions.

I now use one of those 'cheater agents' in Pattaya and excellent service too........

 

Our Imm office is one of the 3 P's, the one that sits beside P-Lok & P-Chit.......

[paddypower]

44 minutes ago, brianburi said:

Not a great idea to go quoting rules and clauses to Immigration Officers.  You will soon get short shrift,  I tried it even saying I would report them to Div 5 HQ.  I was told to leave the building and not come back.

Our office in our province does not accept income or combo methods, just the bank deposits for both retirement and marriage extensions.

I now use one of those 'cheater agents' in Pattaya and excellent service too........

 

Our Imm office is one of the 3 P's, the one that sits beside P-Lok & P-Chit.......

rumour has it that there are 2 types of visa  agents

- legit, who request all the paperwork/qualifications.needed and...

- not so...who will let you know that they do not need earnings or term deposits, to get your your extension. can you pm me which type you use, please? i won't publish it. some of my friends use one which fits the 2nd category of agent.

[Liquorice]

23 hours ago, paddypower said:

Thanks I printed that out and parsed it, carefully. I'd like to ask your patience - on the following : is there any uncertainty (which, no doubt will be left up to 'my immigration officer) : when I apply for an extension in the next year? As I will ask to be considered under 2.22 clauses 1, 2 and 3.  Clause 3 is a standalone condition, 65k a month, with no cross references to or from clause 5. Does that mean I do not have to follow the term deposit restrictions at #4 and #5?

It would help immensely if you could state which order number you're quoting clauses 1 - 5 from, which I suspect is original order 327-2557 dated 2014.
The alien:
(1) Must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM). (
2) Must be 50 years of age or over. 

(3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month: or

(4) On the filing date, the applicant must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to the filing date: or

(5) Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totalling no less than Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date

 

The criteria requirements using the income method were updated Dec 2018 following the US, UK and Australian Embassies ceasing income letters, which until that point were used by all nationalities to provide evidence of pension incomes. The amendment allowed Immigration to accept monthly overseas transfer to an individual's bank account as an alternative method for those now unable to obtain an Embassy Income letter.

In relation to clause (3) using the 65K monthly income transfers to a Thai bank, the updated requirements (2.18 and 2.22) dated Dec 2018 are in order Amend 138-2557 (2018 ) clause 2.18-2.22 for Thai bank income ENG.pdf 

In relation to clause (4) using the 800K funds deposited in a Thai bank account, the updated requirements from Jan 2019 (2.22) are in order 35-2561 (2019 (changed clause 2.22 of 327-2557 ENG.pdf 

 

Prior to 2019 using the 800K funds method, said funds only had to be in a Thai bank account for 3 months prior to the date of application, or 2 months for the very first extension application.
35/2561 changed those requirements, which are now 800K deposited in a Thai bank at least 2 months prior to the date of application, and for 3 months after being granted the extension. You can then withdraw funds 3 months after the extension is issued, but the remaining balance must not fall below 400K. (Clause 4 of 35/2561.)

 

If it's your intention to use the monthly income method of 65K per month for your next extension application, provided you have met the requirements you agreed to at the point of obtaining your previous extension, using the 800K funds method (that is maintained a balance of 800K for 3 months thereafter, and a minimum balance of 400K for the remainder), and you can meet the monthly income requirements, which in your case should be an Embassy Income letter, then after your next extension is issued based on income, you can withdraw any remaining funds.

Edited January 8 by Liquorice

[Liquorice]

21 hours ago, paddypower said:

rumour has it that there are 2 types of visa  agents

- legit, who request all the paperwork/qualifications.needed and...

- not so...who will let you know that they do not need earnings or term deposits, to get your your extension. can you pm me which type you use, please? i won't publish it. some of my friends use one which fits the 2nd category of agent.

All agents can process both legitimate and 'dodgy' applications.
The only difference is in the price they charge.

[Liquorice]

On 1/7/2024 at 10:25 AM, couchpotato said:

And why does that bother you..up to them.

Certainly is, until there's an investigation, IO's heads roll, illegally issued extensions are revoked, the applicant now finds himself on overstay, arrested, deported.

<deleted> sometimes happens.