Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Thorgal]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Is it your claim that the Hamas Charter acknowledges Israel's right to exist? That it relinquishes claims to the area where Israel is nowadays?

Do you understand that the previous Hamas Charter was not dismissed? (that was explained on past discussions as well).

 

More double standards.

 

Israeli soldiers send message to their PM that they will re-take Gaza and settle by getting all Palestinians out is not political hate speech of the main ultra right coalition in Israel.

 

On the other side : different Hamas charters can be cumulated as per required Israeli narrative that Hamas wants to eliminate all Jews from the River to the Sea...

[Bkk Brian]

A bit more on the treatment of some of the child hostages taken by Hamas

 

Prof. Itay Pesach, head of children’s hospital in Tel Aviv who treated 12 of the children hostages that were returned to Israel: “They were severely abused, both psychologically and in other ways. When they’ll start telling their stories none of us will be able to sleep at night”. 

https://twitter.com/Elad_Si/status/1730683287620702373

 

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

Separately on Monday, the Kan public broadcaster reported that Netanyahu has met with at least 10 backbenchers in his Likud party over the past week in an effort to ensure their continued support, as the ruling party — and the premier himself — drops further and further in the polls since the war.

“I am the only one who will prevent a Palestinian state in Gaza and [the West Bank] after the war,” Kan quoted Netanyahu as having told the lawmakers.

The stance clashes directly with the policy of US President Joe Biden’s administration, which has sought to revive talk of a two-state solution in order to maintain the support of the Arab world, as Biden continues to offer robust backing of Israel during its ongoing war aimed at destroying Hamas and securing the release of the hostages the terror group seized on October 7.

Netanyahu reportedly also told the Likud lawmakers that the Biden administration had not wanted Israel to launch a ground incursion in Gaza and had not wanted the IDF to enter Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital, where extensive signs of Hamas presence were found. Netanyahu reportedly boasted about having gone against the US wishes in both of those cases.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/there-are-2-million-nazis-in-west-bank-says-far-right-finance-minister-smotrich/

[Jeff the Chef]

Two US officials speaking with The Times of Israel made no such indication that the US opposed Israel’s operations in Gaza, as Netanyahu suggested. Rather, Washington had pushed for the IDF to ensure the protection of civilians, the officials said, noting that they support expanding the ground operation into southern Gaza in principle, so long as civilians are offered protection.

“I have known Biden for more than 40 years, and know how to speak to the American public,” Kan quoted Netanyahu as having told the Likud backbenchers in individual meetings.

One of Netanyahu’s sit-downs was with Likud MK David Bitan, who urged the prime minister to avoid extravagant declarations that have come back to haunt him. Netanyahu had initially declared that Israel would not allow any fuel into Gaza before walking that pledge back earlier this month.

Kan reported that Netanyahu made clear to his faction members that he does not plan to leave office after the war, even though opinion polls have consistently predicted since the war began that had elections been held at this time, Netanyahu’s party would crash and his current coalition would plummet from 64 Knesset seats to 42 and be ousted from power.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/there-are-2-million-nazis-in-west-bank-says-far-right-finance-minister-smotrich/

[Neeranam]

43 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Neeranam

 

  That you should rehash this again after it was already addressed is not surprising.

Well I never saw it. As you know I ignored rude people who claimed I supported Hamas, which is total nonsense.

 

 

[Neeranam]

59 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

As for what you posted - there are plenty of reports that there were indications for the upcoming attack, and that they were discounted, ignored or wrongly assessed. A whole lot of that on Israeli media.

 

That you hint at some conspiracy involved does not make it so, nor do you supply any actual support for it.

Are you saying that this lik is factual? Are you shocked by it, I am?

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/israel-knew-hamas-attack-plan-more-than-year-ago-nyt/

[Morch]

55 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

More double standards.

 

Israeli soldiers send message to their PM that they will re-take Gaza and settle by getting all Palestinians out is not political hate speech of the main ultra right coalition in Israel.

 

On the other side : different Hamas charters can be cumulated as per required Israeli narrative that Hamas wants to eliminate all Jews from the River to the Sea...

 

No, this is more of your nonsense.

 

There is  no official Israeli policy to re-occupy the Gaza Strip. On the other hand, 'river to the sea' is something which represents Hamas agenda.

 

[Morch]

43 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Separately on Monday, the Kan public broadcaster reported that Netanyahu has met with at least 10 backbenchers in his Likud party over the past week in an effort to ensure their continued support, as the ruling party — and the premier himself — drops further and further in the polls since the war.

“I am the only one who will prevent a Palestinian state in Gaza and [the West Bank] after the war,” Kan quoted Netanyahu as having told the lawmakers.

The stance clashes directly with the policy of US President Joe Biden’s administration, which has sought to revive talk of a two-state solution in order to maintain the support of the Arab world, as Biden continues to offer robust backing of Israel during its ongoing war aimed at destroying Hamas and securing the release of the hostages the terror group seized on October 7.

Netanyahu reportedly also told the Likud lawmakers that the Biden administration had not wanted Israel to launch a ground incursion in Gaza and had not wanted the IDF to enter Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital, where extensive signs of Hamas presence were found. Netanyahu reportedly boasted about having gone against the US wishes in both of those cases.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/there-are-2-million-nazis-in-west-bank-says-far-right-finance-minister-smotrich/

 

And...?

[Morch]

43 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Two US officials speaking with The Times of Israel made no such indication that the US opposed Israel’s operations in Gaza, as Netanyahu suggested. Rather, Washington had pushed for the IDF to ensure the protection of civilians, the officials said, noting that they support expanding the ground operation into southern Gaza in principle, so long as civilians are offered protection.

“I have known Biden for more than 40 years, and know how to speak to the American public,” Kan quoted Netanyahu as having told the Likud backbenchers in individual meetings.

One of Netanyahu’s sit-downs was with Likud MK David Bitan, who urged the prime minister to avoid extravagant declarations that have come back to haunt him. Netanyahu had initially declared that Israel would not allow any fuel into Gaza before walking that pledge back earlier this month.

Kan reported that Netanyahu made clear to his faction members that he does not plan to leave office after the war, even though opinion polls have consistently predicted since the war began that had elections been held at this time, Netanyahu’s party would crash and his current coalition would plummet from 64 Knesset seats to 42 and be ousted from power.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/there-are-2-million-nazis-in-west-bank-says-far-right-finance-minister-smotrich/

 

And....?

[Morch]

24 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Well I never saw it. As you know I ignored rude people who claimed I supported Hamas, which is total nonsense.

 

 

 

@Neeranam

 

I'm half tempted to go look for your comment on the exact issue, but guess it's a waste of energy as even if I was up for it, and even if there were such remaining, you'd probably deflect with some nonsense or the other. Anyway, now you know - which will probably not stop you from re-hashing it again later on.

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Are you saying that this lik is factual? Are you shocked by it, I am?

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/israel-knew-hamas-attack-plan-more-than-year-ago-nyt/

 

@Neeranam

 

I do not know if the specific details in this link are correct, no. I do know that there were enough indications that something is brewing, and that there were attempts by lower echelons to convey this to the higher ups - which met with disbelief, disregard, dismissal. I am more dismayed by this than shocked. It's not as if this is a first for Israel, the 1973 surprise was somewhat similar - the government and the IDF high command had a certain take on how things were, which aligned with political positions - reality was different.

 

The obvious expectation is that countries, organizations, systems would learn from such mistakes - but guess things don't actually work this way. I'm sure that post 7/10, for a while at least, those in position of power will listen more to their underlings - but just as sure this will revert to 'normal' in time. IMO, this is a universal thing.

[James105]

42 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Are you saying that this lik is factual? Are you shocked by it, I am?

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/israel-knew-hamas-attack-plan-more-than-year-ago-nyt/

 

Even if it is correct... so what?   With Isreal living next door to genocidal maniacs who want to kill them at every opportunity then I imagine there are thousands of potential threats they have to investigate every day/week/month.   Since Isreal has not occupied Gaza since 2005 I imagine it is also pretty difficult to verify every single potential attack and after all, the terrorists only need to be lucky once.  

 

It's not Isreals fault that terrorists invaded their land, raped their women, killed their children and took innocent civilians as hostages.... it is the terrorists.   If you are looking to apportion blame for the atrocities committed, then you need look no further than the terrorist organisation Hamas.

[Jeff the Chef]

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And...?

 

33 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And....?

More of your nonsense, as I've told you on numerous occasions now if you don't like the information, move on. 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

Just now, James105 said:

 

Even if it is correct... so what?   With Isreal living next door to genocidal maniacs who want to kill them at every opportunity then I imagine there are thousands of potential threats they have to investigate every day/week/month.   Since Isreal has not occupied Gaza since 2005 I imagine it is also pretty difficult to verify every single potential attack and after all, the terrorists only need to be lucky once.  

 

It's not Isreals fault that terrorists invaded their land, raped their women, killed their children and took innocent civilians as hostages.... it is the terrorists.   If you are looking to apportion blame for the atrocities committed, then you need look no further than the terrorist organisation Hamas.

Rubbish, Israel has as much to answer for in all this going back to 1948

[James105]

Just now, Jeff the Chef said:

Rubbish, Israel has as much to answer for in all this going back to 1948

 

Raping innocent women?  Killing children?  Taking grandmothers and kids hostage?   You support these kind of atrocities? 

[Jeff the Chef]

4 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

Raping innocent women?  Killing children?  Taking grandmothers and kids hostage?   You support these kind of atrocities? 

Not at all, but when Israel imposes apartheid, in an open air prison for nearly 20 years and there is a reaction it's always the Palestinians that are to blame.

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

More of your nonsense, as I've told you on numerous occasions now if you don't like the information, move on. 

 

 

Nonsense how? I would like to know what your take is on the content of the links you post.

This has nothing to do with 'liking' or 'not liking' the information.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Rubbish, Israel has as much to answer for in all this going back to 1948

 

What does that have to do with Israeli intelligence failure regarding the 7/10 attack?

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Not at all, but when Israel imposes apartheid, in an open air prison for nearly 20 years and there is a reaction it's always the Palestinians that are to blame.

 

The blockade on the Gaza Strip is directly related to Hamas actions and agenda. It was not always in place.

[Jeff the Chef]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Nonsense how? I would like to know what your take is on the content of the links you post.

This has nothing to do with 'liking' or 'not liking' the information.

To me it is only a matter of time before the grown ups take over the Knesset

[Jeff the Chef]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The blockade on the Gaza Strip is directly related to Hamas actions and agenda. It was not always in place.

Who helped Hamas come to power?

[Wobblybob]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You are wasting your time. Many times I've asked for such but never receive a reply.

You 'ignore' posters that tell the truth and you have no reply other than 'your're blocked' very childish and immature.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

To me it is only a matter of time before the grown ups take over the Knesset

 

General elections in Israel are about 3 years away. And while current polls may be promising in this regard, overall demographic indications are not. Regardless, even if more moderate forces prevail, it's best to keep expectations realistic - doubtful they'll embark on a radical course of action, or that they are inclined to do so. I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong on this, of course.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Who helped Hamas come to power?

 

Define 'come to power'.

[Bkk Brian]

43 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Not at all, but when Israel imposes apartheid, in an open air prison for nearly 20 years and there is a reaction it's always the Palestinians that are to blame.

it's always the Palestinians that are to blame

 

Well its certainly not the innocent victims of the 7th Oct who are to blame. How many time do you need to be told there is no justification for those terror attacks. Whether they happened in a vacuum or not.

[Morch]

47 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

To me it is only a matter of time before the grown ups take over the Knesset

 

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

General elections in Israel are about 3 years away. And while current polls may be promising in this regard, overall demographic indications are not. Regardless, even if more moderate forces prevail, it's best to keep expectations realistic - doubtful they'll embark on a radical course of action, or that they are inclined to do so. I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong on this, of course.

 

Somewhat related, and quite surprising. This guy, for all his declared beliefs, political stance and allegiances , is as pragmatic as they come. I'm not buying into him wholesale (he's a politician, after all...) but helps holding on to hope that things may change:

 

Mansour Abbas calls on armed Palestinian factions to throw down their weapons, work with PA to establish state

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/mansour-abbas-calls-on-armed-palestinian-factions-to-throw-down-their-weapons-work-with-pa-to-establish-state/

[James105]

52 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Not at all, but when Israel imposes apartheid, in an open air prison for nearly 20 years and there is a reaction it's always the Palestinians that are to blame.

 

Ok I have some questions:

How many other open air prisons do you know that allow their prisoners to pro-create and double their population?  

How is it that Arabs living in Isreal have the same rights as Jews?  Does Isreal not know how to do "apartheid" correctly?

[Morch]

Exclusive-Israel informs Arab states it wants buffer zone in post-war Gaza - sources

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/exclusive-israel-informs-arab-states-it-wants-buffer-zone-in-post-war-gaza-sources/ar-AA1kRZcH

 

Well, that's interesting. Not the buffer zone thing, that's old news, but that this was offered for discussion with regional players. Diplomatically, it's a good move for Israel, as it involves relevant countries in sorting the mess, managing things post war in a cooperative way (vs. recent negative comments on this count from said countries). Better than a one-sided move, for sure.

 

As far as I recall (security arrangements along the border were amended numerous times in the past), there was actually a time when it was like that. Access to fields near the border was limited for owners/farmer/workers at specific times. Stricter with regard to barren or no-man-lands.

 

It's to be expected that there will be comments about the Gaza Strip already being very densely populated and so on - but doubt this would have much direct bearing on urban construction/living space. Don't think that there are high-rise buildings right on the border anyway.

 

[Danderman123]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

Exclusive-Israel informs Arab states it wants buffer zone in post-war Gaza - sources

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/exclusive-israel-informs-arab-states-it-wants-buffer-zone-in-post-war-gaza-sources/ar-AA1kRZcH

 

Well, that's interesting. Not the buffer zone thing, that's old news, but that this was offered for discussion with regional players. Diplomatically, it's a good move for Israel, as it involves relevant countries in sorting the mess, managing things post war in a cooperative way (vs. recent negative comments on this count from said countries). Better than a one-sided move, for sure.

 

As far as I recall (security arrangements along the border were amended numerous times in the past), there was actually a time when it was like that. Access to fields near the border was limited for owners/farmer/workers at specific times. Stricter with regard to barren or no-man-lands.

 

It's to be expected that there will be comments about the Gaza Strip already being very densely populated and so on - but doubt this would have much direct bearing on urban construction/living space. Don't think that there are high-rise buildings right on the border anyway.

 

Minefields with limited safe corridors that are well guarded are long overdue.

 

As for stopping aerial assaults, radar is useful.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Minefields with limited safe corridors that are well guarded are long overdue.

 

As for stopping aerial assaults, radar is useful.

 

Minefields are a problem in some of the relevant areas (dunes). That's one reason they aren't widely in use. Tend to drift some.

 

I don't think there's an issue with the existing means of security, the problem was more about readiness, level of alert, and a higher ups getting in-love with the notion Hamas was deterred. Also troops normally stationed there were deployed elsewhere (the West Bank), in part due to political pressures.

 

Radars aren't that good at detecting drones, gliders and so on, but again - enough means as it is, more an a question of attitude.

 

The buffer zone makes sense as it gives extra time to react, while not really having a huge effect on most Gazans. Diplomatically, though, it obviously creates bad vibes, hence this preempting move.