Living in Thailand using only ATM money for more than 6-months - tax consequences

[CartagenaWarlock]

I bring 2K USD/month to Thailand using Wise to my Thai bank for my cash expenses. All other expenses are either credit cards or direct payments to people, not to my account. Do I pay taxes if I withdraw 30K Baht each using an ATM twice a month? How will the Thai government track how much money I have brought to Thailand for tax purposes? They can't use ATM withdrawals because, in today's society, tourists are expended to use ATMs.

Edited December 2, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[Celsius]

Exactly. No consequences.

 

My only issue here if I will be expected to file a tax return.

 

If yes, it is bye, bye forever.

[Gottfrid]

If you do t that way. No tax will fall on you. Same I have done lately. All my money goes to a Cambodian account. After that a card attached. Unlimited spending and works in Thai ATMs

 

[foreverlomsak]

Nobody really knows at the moment how this "Tax" is going to be calculated / applied / reported, so everything is still speculation.

With the CRS exchange of information it is entirely possible that the sending bank, i.e. the bank the card is issued from, could report the withdrawal of monies in Thailand and the name of the name and other details of the card owner.

And no I'm not scare mongering just being realistic regarding the possibilities with the exchange of banking information.

[topt]

2 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

How will the Thai government track how much money I have brought to Thailand for tax purposes?

As someone who, in many of the tax threads,  keeps saying that if you live here you should expect to pay taxes surely you will be filling in a tax return if you live here more than 180 days in a year.........

One such comment - (not necessarily the right context but it has been a fairly consistent theme with you)

Quote

But you still moved to Thailand. If not, please shut up. If yes, please pay the taxes. Plain and simple. 

 

[bkk6060]

Well, things are automated here.  Banking history, VIsa's, In and out of the country.  All recorded and filed.

If in fact the Revenue Department connects to immigration, and connects to the banking system; in theory they could catch some people who are here more then 6 months bringing what they deem qualified money into the country.  But, what are the chances they have the staffing, or time, or appropriate software to actually collect or enforce any of it?

I see this not being an issues at all for Expats.  They are probably laughing at all the paranoia and anxiety about this issue.

Edited December 2, 2023 by bkk6060

[JoseThailand]

I will never be able to fully comprehend the magnitude of human anxiety

[jerrymahoney]

In addition to examples of scenarios in which
taxpayers should be exempt from Thai tax on
foreign-sourced income, the FAQ also clarifies
several points, including:

 

• “Remittance of income into Thailand” is
defined as any action in bringing the income
sourced abroad into Thailand, including
wiring money from a bank account,
transferring money via e-banking, or
physically carrying cash into Thailand.

However, the FAQ did not confirm whether
spending money in Thailand from an
offshore bank account, credit card, or debit
card could be considered a remittance of
income into Thailand. 

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/content/download/1175616/59807824/version//file/Technical-update-November-2023.pdf   --  Page 3

 

**********

 

I would think an arrangement as in the OP would have some issues either for extension of a stay or a succession of multiple entry visas, etc.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[CartagenaWarlock]

6 hours ago, topt said:

As someone who, in many of the tax threads,  keeps saying that if you live here you should expect to pay taxes surely you will be filling in a tax return if you live here more than 180 days in a year.........

One such comment - (not necessarily the right context but it has been a fairly consistent theme with you)

One must pay taxes but also explore all possibilities of finding loopholes.

[ukrules]

7 hours ago, foreverlomsak said:

With the CRS exchange of information it is entirely possible that the sending bank, i.e. the bank the card is issued from, could report the withdrawal of monies in Thailand and the name of the name and other details of the card owner.

But CRS sends end of year balances and throughput on accounts - that's it.

 

What did you expect CRS to be? Some kind of advanced statement reporting detailing your every transaction

Edited December 2, 2023 by ukrules

[herfiehandbag]

Talk about linking the records of the tax, immigration and banking systems is perhaps ambitious.

 

Their seem to be enough problems connecting data within departments let alone between departments. Immigration, despite computer entries and paper forms ( various TMxx) are basically unable to keep track of and apprehend overstayers. The communications people, despite knowing how many SIM cards are in circulation, both for foreigners and Thais, don't have a coherent picture of who has them. Banks hold multiple photocopies of passports, and continuously ask for more. None of these reams of paper, or megabytes of digital information seem to be cross referenced or collated in any meaningful way.

[jerrymahoney]

12 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Talk about linking the records of the tax, immigration and banking systems is perhaps ambitious.

Sure but it is different when you go physically to an Immigration office and show finances for an extension of stay or stand in person before an immigration officer at an entry point and they query about how you are supporting yourself with all these multiple entries to the Kingdom.

Edited December 3, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[jaideedave]

10 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I bring 2K USD/month to Thailand using Wise to my Thai bank for my cash expenses. All other expenses are either credit cards or direct payments to people, not to my account. Do I pay taxes if I withdraw 30K Baht each using an ATM twice a month? How will the Thai government track how much money I have brought to Thailand for tax purposes? They can't use ATM withdrawals because, in today's society, tourists are expended to use ATMs.

I like your way of thinking.With millions of tourists using ATM,s year round how could they possibly track you down unless something jumps out at them.They only issue is that we get a crappy ex rate using an ATM.

Look at the 90 report debacle and SIM card registration. They can't even keep track of whos in the country at any given time.

[jerrymahoney]

As I see it, the weak link in the OP's search for loopholes is when -- as he is staying for 6+ months -- he has to at some point  physically present himself at immigration either for extension or multiple times at a port of entry and immigration may start asking as to just how he supports himself -- nothing hi-tech about it.

 

And for those on the agent route, it may come down to whether the IMM folks are going to be willing to share their bribe money with the Revenue dept. folks.

Edited December 3, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[it is what it is]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

Talk about linking the records of the tax, immigration and banking systems is perhaps ambitious.

 

Their seem to be enough problems connecting data within departments let alone between departments. Immigration, despite computer entries and paper forms ( various TMxx) are basically unable to keep track of and apprehend overstayers. The communications people, despite knowing how many SIM cards are in circulation, both for foreigners and Thais, don't have a coherent picture of who has them. Banks hold multiple photocopies of passports, and continuously ask for more. None of these reams of paper, or megabytes of digital information seem to be cross referenced or collated in any meaningful way.

 

good points, there are multiple ways immigration could identify and track over stayers, if they wanted to/could be bothered to...

[pomchop]

Per Noy:  "why u tink too mutt?"

[bamnutsak]

5 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

However, the FAQ did not confirm whether
spending money in Thailand from an
offshore bank account, credit card, or debit
card could be considered a remittance of
income into Thailand. 

 

 

The credit card thing will be a potentially major hit.

 

For example, all air tickets ex THL are issued in THB (Sold Inside, Ticketed Inside - SITI), so if using a foreign credit card you'll essentially be remitting your foreign currency for that purchase. For a THL-USA-THL RT in business that might be a 175,000 Baht (assessible income) hit.

 

I use my foreign CC here for ~ 100,000 baht each year, exclusive of air tickets and domestic hotels. 

 

 

The consensus here and elsewhere is that ATM withdrawals would probably be considered accessible income.

 

A lot of Thai people, who receive funds from off-shore, may be in for a surprise.

 

 

 

 

[herfiehandbag]

2 hours ago, it is what it is said:

 

good points, there are multiple ways immigration could identify and track over stayers, if they wanted to/could be bothered to...

Yes there are. And the same is probably true of the tax people. But, this would require a significant amount of work, cross referencing and collating the data they hold already.

 

Quite a task, I recently had to fill out two forms. Each form asked for my personal details in different "formats, surname first, surname last, both Christian names, only the first name, passport number and date of issue in different order and so on. And that was in one Immigration Office dealing with one issue!

[CartagenaWarlock]

10 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

he has to at some point  physically present himself at immigration either for extension or multiple times at a port of entry and immigration may start asking as to just how he supports himself -- nothing hi-tech about it.

I don't go to immigration office. At the port of entry, if they ask me, I will say I support myself using credit cards. I already use credit cards for most of my transactions anyway. I have to find ways to do it more when I use cash now. This month I'm running an experiment with withdrawing from ATMs (using my US-issued Charles Schwab ATM card) and using my credit card as much as possible. Technically, credit card purchases are loans and not earnings.

Edited December 3, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[topt]

35 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Technically, credit card purchases are loans and not earnings.

Depends how they wish to view it - and if they want to get down to that level of detail.

 

I think it was @Mike Lister who posted this ref in another link - how HMRC UK view it as one example -

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm33520

[treetops]

9 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

For example, all air tickets ex THL are issued in THB (Sold Inside, Ticketed Inside - SITI), so if using a foreign credit card you'll essentially be remitting your foreign currency for that purchase. For a THL-USA-THL RT in business that might be a 175,000 Baht (assessible income) hit.

I just purchased an airline ticket a couple of days ago and was doing it through "airline".co.th  and it appears as you say and was priced in THB.  I reneged at the last minute and made the purchase through "airline".co.uk and was charged in GBP.  Is this still a SITI situation and just done behind the scenes, as there was no apparent Thai link except for the origin of the flight?

[MangoKorat]

I had thought of doing exactly what the OP suggests if the proposed new taxation rules go ahead. I contacted WISE about their card account and they assured me that their card will work in almost all Thai ATM's.  There will of course, be ATM charges and each individual would have to work out if they will actually save money. Some are likely to pay very little tax if any at all, once all the regular allowances have been taken account of.

[jerrymahoney]

8 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I don't go to immigration office. At the port of entry, if they ask me, I will say I support myself using credit cards

OK. And if you spend more than 180 days per year in Thailand, that may or may not prove the end of the conversation with the IMM folks down the road.

[CartagenaWarlock]

7 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

I had thought of doing exactly what the OP suggests if the proposed new taxation rules go ahead. I contacted WISE about their card account and they assured me that their card will work in almost all Thai ATM's.  There will of course, be ATM charges and each individual would have to work out if they will actually save money. Some are likely to pay very little tax if any at all, once all the regular allowances have been taken account of.

Some cards have refundable ATM charges. Assuming a person does not carry it, the charge of 225 baht for a withdrawal of 30K (or 20K) at a time is still acceptable. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[CartagenaWarlock]

8 hours ago, treetops said:

I just purchased an airline ticket a couple of days ago and was doing it through "airline".co.th  and it appears as you say and was priced in THB.  I reneged at the last minute and made the purchase through "airline".co.uk and was charged in GBP.  Is this still a SITI situation and just done behind the scenes, as there was no apparent Thai link except for the origin of the flight?

Most sites where I shop for tickets offer to charge in either local currency or USD. I always opt for local currency.

[CartagenaWarlock]

8 hours ago, topt said:

I think it was @Mike Lister who posted this ref in another link - how HMRC UK view it as one example -

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm33520

I see. I am not sure what these remittances are there for, but it says if the credit card settles. If I don't settle or pay the minimum and incur interest payments, is it deductible? 

[jerrymahoney]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:14 AM, CartagenaWarlock said:

One must pay taxes but also explore all possibilities of finding loopholes.

Except to the point where the loopholes cost more than the taxes, if any.

[Jenkins9039]

On 12/2/2023 at 9:24 PM, CartagenaWarlock said:

I bring 2K USD/month to Thailand using Wise to my Thai bank for my cash expenses. All other expenses are either credit cards or direct payments to people, not to my account. Do I pay taxes if I withdraw 30K Baht each using an ATM twice a month? How will the Thai government track how much money I have brought to Thailand for tax purposes? They can't use ATM withdrawals because, in today's society, tourists are expended to use ATMs.

Card(s) have names on them -> name + Immigration records = tax amount owed.

Card(s) are issued by financial institutions which share financial information under CRS = Name + CRS Account Information + Drill-into (enquiries) ~ Thailand focused transactions = Tax amount owed.

 

One blessing ~ 100+ countries voted to move away from OECD recently ~ if that occurs then CRS is dead.

 

Downside is Western Governments will force in a FACTA like system and probably introduce taxes for non-residents.

[skatewash]

On 12/3/2023 at 8:04 AM, jaideedave said:

I like your way of thinking.With millions of tourists using ATM,s year round how could they possibly track you down unless something jumps out at them.They only issue is that we get a crappy ex rate using an ATM.

Look at the 90 report debacle and SIM card registration. They can't even keep track of whos in the country at any given time.

 

You get a very poor exchange rate if you accept Dynamic Currency Conversion if offerred by the ATM.  Otherwise, if you use a branded credit or debit card you will receive the MasterCard or Visa daily exchange rate between baht and your home currency which is usually a decent rate.  You can tell if you will get DCC if the ATM shows the transaction denominated in your home currency, it should only show baht.

[JSatGS]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:06 PM, bamnutsak said:

A lot of Thai people, who receive funds from off-shore, may be in for a surprise.

I send money to my MIL monthly and have for the past 11 years. Just confirmed with her that yes they are trying to tax what we send. I may just set her up account elsewhere and give her a card to it so they don’t tax what should not be as it was already here.