Oh yes oh yes! God exists! I am going to jump from the 20th floor now and see if God is going to save me.

I have a feeling that you are confusing a, ' A Leap of Faith', with stupidity, something that, in my opinion God would even agree with Darwin in this case, regarding natural selection.

I tried hard many years studying in a catholic school to believe in those fairy tales they teach but failed. They don't make any bloody sense!

Sometimes, these stories need a little dissecting and require further thought.

Perhaps Lazarus was miraculously brought back to life, or perhaps, just perhaps, Jesus was also a gifted healer and brought him back from a near death experience using Mouth to Mouth or CPR, it is your choice or not, whatever the case may be.

It might just be a good story that a Minstrel decided to sing and carouse on his tour of the Middle East, but then maybe not!

ligious? I fear really that my soul won't be saved!

( I cut a piece of that ) If you do not believe, I guess it wont bother you.

Every religious person tried to hide away from me when confronted by me! Every bloody person!

It would appear that you have never met myself or Suegha then, although I accept I do not have Suegha's commitment or discerning capacity of intellect.

I am quite amazed that there are actually so many people in this world with an IQ problem.

Hmmmm, do I read in this that if anybody disagrees with you, is of low I.Q. Which in itself is proof of limited intelligence.

Good Luck, I wish you well.

Moss

Excellent post Moss, most thought provoking! Thanks for the mention.

Oh yes oh yes! God exists! I am going to jump from the 20th floor now and see if God is going to save me.

I tried hard many years studying in a catholic school to believe in those fairy tales they teach but failed. They don't make any bloody sense! Can someone please turn me to be religious? I fear really that my soul won't be saved! Every religious person tried to hide away from me when confronted by me! Every bloody person!

I am quite amazed that there are actually so many people in this world with an IQ problem.

Well if someone jumps from a 20th floor there's more than a good chance that they will die regardless of whether they bekieve in god or not! So why would you expect God to save you? Maybe your problem is that you tried to believe in the fairy tales rather than the truth. And why, to use your wording, do you want someone to turn you to be religious? This is your own choice based on your own studies!

Then you wrote "Every religious person tried to hide away from me when confronted by me!" What sort of religious people you been hanging out with man?!?

One last point, IQ has nothing to do with faith and spirituality!

Well if people tell me that pigs can fly and his dick can touch the sky and I believe it, what would you think of my IQ?

It was catholic priests, catholics and christians I spoke to. What they can tell me is to have faith! Just believe! <deleted>!

We were forced to read BS in those fairy tale books where they say the red sea divided. How can anyone believe anything like that? Why study physics, chemistry and biology anymore?

Oh yes, I remember, I was actually from a too poor a family for those fathers and brothers to even give a flying ass. Their eyes see money only!

Anyone can prove God here?

You wrote "Well if people tell me that pigs can fly and his dick can touch the sky and I believe it, what would you think of my IQ?"

I would think you had a pretty low IQ but a great imagination if you believed any of this!

Those telling you that you should just have faith, faith in what?

To say you read BS in fairy tales, that's your perogative. If you believe an omipotent God can control his own creation the parting of the red sea is perfectly acceptable!

I too was from a poor family, working class, 2 up 2 down, 11 children, however, I found the proof of God for myself. I didn't need some priest or other Christian to tell me what to believe. But that's me, I have such a low IQ I always think for myself!

"Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon."

Isaiah 55 vv6-7

That's a lovely passage, Tiggy.

And, um, I didn't know angels were unique to North Americans. First I knew I had a few was when I met an ambassador's wife (East European, forget which country) in Japan many years ago. She kept looking at the top of my head. I thought I had pigeon poo there or something. I finally asked her and she said she was just looking at my angels. EeeeeEEEoooooo.

Iive been pretty spiritual all my life. Just don't follow one path, but I respect all the wisdom and virtues of different religions. Basically, keep your nose clean and give your neighbour a smoke when he runs out. Prayer and meditation helps to rid the mind of extraneous rubbish, too. Don't need to be Buddhist or Catholic to do any of that.

I've been pretty spiritual all my life. Just don't follow one path, but I respect all the wisdom and virtues of different religions. Basically, keep your nose clean and give your neighbour a smoke when he runs out. Prayer and meditation helps to rid the mind of extraneous rubbish, too. Don't need to be Buddhist or Catholic to do any of that.

Bingo.

God is real. Oh yes, I said it.

I believe that thoughts are more than just non-things. They affect us, we use them to make desicions thus they are real. So, God is real simply because someone believes he is.

I believe in Middle Earth, it is a real place with real people and the only way to get there is through a book and thus the mind of Tolkien. It does not exist in our world but it does have it's place. Now, maybe that makes me a crackpot, but if a though has the power to move someone to action it can't be discarded so easily.

I believe in Middle Earth, it is a real place with real people and the only way to get there is through a book and thus the mind of Tolkien. It does not exist in our world but it does have it's place. Now, maybe that makes me a crackpot, but if a though has the power to move someone to action it can't be discarded so easily.

Have you ever read 'Number Of The Beast' by Heinlein?

If not, I think you would enjoy it.

Well if people tell me that pigs can fly and his dick can touch the sky and I believe it, what would you think of my IQ?

Is this a common problem? Dude, I don't know what church you tried out, but very few religions have anything to do with a pig's dick.

We were forced to read BS in those fairy tale books where they say the red sea divided. How can anyone believe anything like that? Why study physics, chemistry and biology anymore?

Oh yes, I remember, I was actually from a too poor a family for those fathers and brothers to even give a flying ass. Their eyes see money only!

Anyone can prove God here?

Regardless of what you believe about pig penises, IQ has nothing to do with believing that Moses parted the Red Sea. It does however come into play with recognizing that the ten commandments are a pretty good code to live by, no matter if you believe the fairy tales or not.

[quote name='suegha' date='2007-07-20 21:31:43' post='1429751'

the average age in my church is just over 30.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

A lot of babies there ?

Not a believer ( never liked the Monkies ) myself. However when someone asks " Can anyone prove there is a God in here " ? Interesting to reverse the question and say " can anyone prove there is not " ?

So many billions of believers, can they all be wrong ?

I believe in Middle Earth, it is a real place with real people and the only way to get there is through a book and thus the mind of Tolkien. It does not exist in our world but it does have it's place. Now, maybe that makes me a crackpot, but if a though has the power to move someone to action it can't be discarded so easily.

Have you ever read 'Number Of The Beast' by Heinlein?

If not, I think you would enjoy it.

No, I have not. I will have to check it out, thanks for the suggestion, always looking for a good read.

however, I found the proof of God for myself.

Can you enlighten me on that? What proof? What makes you think God exists?

Regardless of what you believe about pig penises, IQ has nothing to do with believing that Moses parted the Red Sea. It does however come into play with recognizing that the ten commandments are a pretty good code to live by, no matter if you believe the fairy tales or not.

Why does one have to believe in God(something that has absolutely no proof at all) to be a good person?

Do you guys believe in science? Why? Why do we need any logic then?

Is it that hard to see that it is just rumors by people from a few thousand years ago? If you look at human beings, is it that hard to figure out that exaggerating is just part of human beings' characteristics?

Personally, I believe in freedom. That means anyone should be allowed to do anything they like which includes religious beliefs.

Although inside I do think there is something wrong with the person's brain to do so. But when they go as far as to interfering with other peoples' lives, I start to hate it. I hate it when they tell me I can't do this can't do that!

Anyone can prove God here?

of COURSE no one can prove God here. WeII, not in any sense that I think you want. Good grief.

Dont know why peopIe feeI the need to try rip hoIes into another persons beIief system. Yes ok, reIigion when it is mixed up in poIitics etc is another thing, but an individuaIs faith is something that others find hard to respect?

The bibIe, is not something I beIieve in per say. BUT, i think there IS a basis of some fact, which, through the years and with embeIIishment it is more a touch of foIk Iore combined with history. For exampIe, you mention the red sea. I had read once, that the red sea is miss-transIated and the correct transIation is 'Sea of Reeds'. One theory was that moses knew a path across, via reeds. But, of course, the story became eIaborated. Im not going to doubIe check what im saying here, i see no point, because i dont feeI a need to prove or disprove. As for a man named Jesus, weII, i think this man exsisted, there seems to be some evidence he did. And, that he was spirituaI, infIuenciaI, and a Ieader, and that he was prosecuted. As for the son of God, that fact is impossibIe to prove.

PersonaIIy I am agnostic. I was brought up strict CathoIic, but i broke away from that choosing to find my own beIief system. I dont foIIow any reIigion, prefering to try Iive my Iife in a 'good' way, or a way i deem is 'good'. I think if someones faith is harmIess (big IF there btw), then it shouId be respected. I aIso beIieve that my idea of faith shouId be respected, so if peopIe try to force feed me reIigion (which famiIy members stiII occasionaIIy try to do) I have IittIe patience for it.

If someone has bIind faith, then so be it. There is no need to be hostiIe with another because someones beIief system. Utter madness.

God is likely a myth, just as freedom is.

Personally, I believe in freedom. That means anyone should be allowed to do anything they like which includes religious beliefs.

Although inside I do think there is something wrong with the person's brain to do so. But when they go as far as to interfering with other peoples' lives, I start to hate it. I hate it when they tell me I can't do this can't do that!

You want peopIe to back off and respect your personaI beIiefs right? Then why Iash out so much at others beIiefs?

Regarding the comment that you feeI there is something wrong with a persons brain for them to have a reIigious beIief, then you are saying the vast majority of the worId have some kind of IQ probIem/mentaI instabiIity? You dont think this kind of bigoted comment sheds a bad Iight on your own mentaI abiIity? Its sad if one cannot get their head around acceptance of another persons faith. This kind of thinking is often aIso akin to reIigious extremists, who often have cIosed minded views of another reIigion, and IittIe toIerance for it.

But when they go as far as to interfering with other peoples' lives, I start to hate it. I hate it when they tell me I can't do this can't do that!

Im not sure if you mean in the bigger picture for the first part, or because of the second part, more personaI experiences..or both. I do agree, when reIigion pIays a big part in peopIes Iives to the point that is is aImost Iike a dictatorship, it is wrong. Some peopIe foIIow reIigion to the Iatter. My famiIy members aIso had this extreme beIief in their reIigion..and that it shouId not be questioned (if i did, i received one heII of a whack). But if you are free thinking, or interpret what you wish from your reIigion (it doesnt have to be 'aII or nothing'), then, they have no power over you, so just waIk away. Not that hard reaIIy.

Anyone can prove God here?

of COURSE no one can prove God here. WeII, not in any sense that I think you want. Good grief.

Dont know why peopIe feeI the need to try rip hoIes into another persons beIief system. Yes ok, reIigion when it is mixed up in poIitics etc is another thing, but an individuaIs faith is something that others find hard to respect?

The bibIe, is not something I beIieve in per say. BUT, i think there IS a basis of some fact, which, through the years and with embeIIishment it is more a touch of foIk Iore combined with history. For exampIe, you mention the red sea. I had read once, that the red sea is miss-transIated and the correct transIation is 'Sea of Reeds'. One theory was that moses knew a path across, via reeds. But, of course, the story became eIaborated. Im not going to doubIe check what im saying here, i see no point, because i dont feeI a need to prove or disprove. As for a man named Jesus, weII, i think this man exsisted, there seems to be some evidence he did. And, that he was spirituaI, infIuenciaI, and a Ieader, and that he was prosecuted. As for the son of God, that fact is impossibIe to prove.

PersonaIIy I am agnostic. I was brought up strict CathoIic, but i broke away from that choosing to find my own beIief system. I dont foIIow any reIigion, prefering to try Iive my Iife in a 'good' way, or a way i deem is 'good'. I think if someones faith is harmIess (big IF there btw), then it shouId be respected. I aIso beIieve that my idea of faith shouId be respected, so if peopIe try to force feed me reIigion (which famiIy members stiII occasionaIIy try to do) I have IittIe patience for it.

If someone has bIind faith, then so be it. There is no need to be hostiIe with another because someones beIief system. Utter madness.

You are not saying that I am being hostile to anyone here, are you?

Regardless of what you believe about pig penises, IQ has nothing to do with believing that Moses parted the Red Sea. It does however come into play with recognizing that the ten commandments are a pretty good code to live by, no matter if you believe the fairy tales or not.

Why does one have to believe in God(something that has absolutely no proof at all) to be a good person?

Nobody's saying you must. However if you cannot understand the concept of allegorical thought then you are depriving yourself of the beauty of art, literature and music.

You don't have to believe that witches in gingerbread houses exist, but if the story of Hansel and Gretel warns children not to accept invitations from strangers, it's still a positive thing.

I'd leave out references to pig penises though as it might mess them up. It also makes you look somewhat hysterical in your posts.

Do religious people have the word "superstitious" in their dictionaries? Are the 2 words any different?

I agree everything is about belief. I believe what I am looking at is a computer. I believe the colour of the sky I am looking at is what all people call blue. I believe a dog barks. These are all things we believe according to our senses. Sense of sight, hearing, touch, smell, and logic thinking, right?

If I start believing that dogs speak german, if I start believing that i should walk naked in the streets, what do people think of me? Should I be respected of my beliefs or should people think I am either stupid or insane? To have a belief which has no grounds is different.

It might not be as easy as you think to avoid the interference of religion. One can easily get killed by saying the wrong things.

In HK here, most good well-known schools are either religious or expensive. And kids get points if they turn catholic and that makes them easier to get into those schools. So can you imagine the amount of hypocrites they recruit to their schools?

You are not saying that I am being hostile to anyone here, are you?

With regards to that smaII comment, if soIey appIied to you (which it wasnt), i wouId say your 'tone' in your posts come across as somewhat hostiIe regarding the subject. So, no, I am not saying you are being hostiIe to anyone here. If how i worded it comes across that i was impIying you personaIIy were being hostiIe to members here, then it was not intentionaI.

You are not saying that I am being hostile to anyone here, are you?

With regards to that smaII comment, if soIey appIied to you (which it wasnt), i wouId say your 'tone' in your posts come across as somewhat hostiIe regarding the subject. So, no, I am not saying you are being hostiIe to anyone here. If how i worded it comes across that i was impIying you personaIIy were being hostiIe to members here, then it was not intentionaI.

So many billions of believers, can they all be wrong ?

Yes !

People have what seems to be a built in need to believe in something. The idea that this life is it, and there's nothing after you die, is unbearable for most people. After all, what is the point if everything you do in this life ends when you die ?

That is the hook most religions use. The promise of an afterlife. Be it Heaven, Paradise, Valhalla or Re-incarnation. Follow the dogma of (insert favourite religion here), do as the leaders of (insert favourite religion here) tell you, and you will be guaranteed a place in (where ever) or re-incarnation to a higher level (until finally achieving Nirvana, which equates to Heaven/Paradise/Valhalla/etc in other religions). Teach this to people from the time they are born, and by the time they are able to form opinions on their own, they are effectively brain-washed. They will go to great lengths to prove that what they believe is real, because it's all they have.

That is the one big down-side to the elimination of religion. Take away that promise of something better, and many of these people would die of despair and hopelessness.

Religion, in various forms, has existed since the days of the caveman. As mankind's intellect started to develop, he started to question. Why ? Why does the sun disappear from the sky at midday ? Why does the ground shake so violently that cracks appear in it ? Why do those strange bolts come from the clouds, followed by a thunderous noise ?

Man had no answer for these questions. Then one day, thousands and thousands of years ago, man looked up at the stormy skies above and saw what appeared to be a face in those clouds. A face that looked like the elders of the clan. Wild hair, beard and fearful expression. No doubt followed shortly afterwards by a bolt of lightning and clap of thunder. Religion was born. (Simplistic version)

Religions in other parts of the world probably started in a similar fashion, when man began asking "why". The concept of divine beings living in the skies (and under the ground) took shape. Soon after came the people who sought to communicate with these divine beings (shamen, priests, etc). They soon learned that their "ability" to commune with the gods gave them a power that even their chieftains/kings didn't possess.

Have none of you ever wondered why god (the Jewish/Christian one) only seems to have appeared and spoken to a small, select group, of the world's population (i.e. the Jews). Why did he not appear or have prophets among the Chinese or other Asian races ? Nor did he appear before the South/North Americans/Europeans/Africans etc. Why not ? Abraham, Moses, Jesus. All Jewish. Why was this particular group chosen, out of the millions and millions of people that inhabited the earth at the time ? Why were the other races not worthy of his "grace" at the time ?

It wasn't until the missionaries began their programs of "bringing the word to the heathens" (often forcibly) that many of these other races first learnt about Christianity.

Why is it that all those other races had indigenous religions of their own (and some still do), if one god "created" them all ? Some of their religions predate the origins of Judaism (and Christianity) by thousands of years. Why didn't this "god" spread his word and send prophets to all the other races at the same time ?

Take the Egyptians for example. The pyramid of Giza was built around 4,500+ years ago. 2,500 years before Christ. The worship of the various Egyptian gods goes back even farther. (Funny how often Egypt is mentioned in the bible, yet in ancient Egyptian history, carved in stone, there is only one known occurrence of the name "Israel". A stele in the Cairo museum records the conquests of a pharaoh, and notes "the seed of Israel is no more". In the context of language at the time, this would mean that all the males of the Israeli tribe were killed. What about the Exodus ? Why is there no mention of it in Egyptian history ? An event of that magnitude would surely have been noted in stone, as is most of Egyptian history. From what I've read, well over 600,000 Jews left Egypt at the time, which would have represented between 1/3 and 1/2 of the entire population of Egypt. (Remember to, at that time Egypt had pretty good census and taxation systems. 600,000 people up and leaving suddenly would have been noticed. As well, no records exist in Egyptian history regarding a pharaoh and his army being wiped out in the Red Sea).

Mohammed ? He took it a little further, giving his people an even stricter code to follow, but still with the promise of something more for the faithful (the Koran quotes, many times, that the faithful will be rewarded by going to a paradise of gardens watered by running streams. To people living in the desert, that sounded pretty good. Wasn't enough though, was it, to gather the armies he needed to conquer his neighbours. Hence the Hadith and the now popular promise of (13-72) virgins for those who die in Allah's name).

"Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)" (An-Naba 78:31-34)."

"Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."

(Oh yeah, he also introduced the draconian Sharia laws, to further enhance the obedience of his followers.)

Note to, how most religions also offer a counterpoint to those who would stray from their teachings. Most involve some type of h3ll (or many h3lls). Torture and damnation for eternity.

Look at most of the major religions of today (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, etc.). Pretty much all of them want to exert some kind of control over your thoughts and actions. Some are more tolerant (these days), and some are more extreme, but they all want the same thing.

Power.

The power to tell you what to do and what not to do. How to do it. When to do it. Some religions have evolved over the centuries, and lost some of the absolute power they once had. Others continue along the path of trying to exert absolute power over their subjects.

Science has answered many of the questions that early man turned to religion for. We now know what an eclipse is. Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Lightning and Thunder. We now know that Heaven isn't "above the clouds" (a place ancient man couldn't reach, but the birds could. Hence the wings on angels). We know that H3ll isn't at the center of the earth (but there is a lot of molten lava, and bats live in caves under the ground. Hence the "fiery pits of h3ll, and the bat wings on the devils/demons. Coincidence ?).

What about women ? Why is it that most religions relegate women to a secondary role, if not even lower ? Again, some religions are evolving and who knows, 2 or 3 centuries from now you may even see a female pope (or an openly gay one). But for the most part, even in Buddhism, women are second rate. At least in some of the older (pre-Christian) religions, women had a lot more power and influence (one just has to look at how many female deities there were in the Norse, Greek, Roman and Egyptian religions). While women are making (small) inroads in the Christian (mainly Protestant) religions, in the others, they still remain "at the back of the bus".

Strange how women, mothers to us all and half the population, are treated so shabbily by religion. Not just women either. Recent news stories mentioned that thousands of Hindus are converting to Christianity, to escape the caste system that they were born into. Try doing that in the peaceful and tolerant religion of Islam. (Which reminds me. Remember the bit above about the (13-72) virgins that those who die in Allah's name will get ? Apparently, the women get (13-72) female virgins as well ! I remember watching an interview with a young Palestinian girl that was going to be a suicide bomber. She said she would give her (13-72) virgins to her brother

Man created religion to answer that which he didn't know. Science has answered many of those questions, and will undoubtedly answer even more in the future.

Man created the god(s) in his own image. As the dominant species, he (naturally) assumed the image of a supreme being(s) would be in his own form. (Exceptions being the N/S American, Hindu and Scientology "religions").

Man wrote the bible. Man wrote the Koran. Man wrote Dianetics.

There is a fine example of "religion". Created by a science fiction writer who came to the conclusion that modern religions were the biggest money-making enterprises in history, and he wanted a piece of the pie. Treated as a cult in some countries, it has been spreading around the world and attracting some major celebrities. So, was L Ron Hubbard a prophet ? A visionary ? Or a money-grubbing leech that realised the truth and wanted to cash in on it ? Time will tell, though most of us won't be around to see it. Given time though, Hubbard could end up being remembered in the same breath as Moses and Mohammed, and people in the future will be having similar debates to what we are doing now.

(This started out as a one word response, and is growing into a novel.)

I also like the way religions (these days at least) like to attribute anything good that happens as being due to god's grace, while ignoring the bad things.

If an earthquake or hurricane wipes out whole cities, it's the wrath of nature. If a survivor is found in the aftermath, praise is given to god for sparing them (the fact that the same god would have been therefore responsible for the deaths of everyone else is ignored).

One of the things that stuck out in my mind when I first read the Koran (Qu'ran). In his early days, shortly after writing the Koran, Mohammed gathered his fledgling group of about 1,000 men. They planned on attacking an unarmed caravan, but had to do battle with an army sent out to protect the caravan. Though outnumbered 4 to 1, Mohammed was victorious. Of course, praise for the victory belonged to Allah.

How ever, a little later and a lot more powerful (from raiding more unarmed caravans perhaps ?), he now had an army of about 16,000 men. He faced an opposing force numbering (estimated) at 4,000. He lost that battle despite the overpowering odds on his side. Was that Allah's fault ? No. It was the fault of his followers for not believing strongly enough.

I would have laughed when I heard it, if it wasn't so tragic. Couple of years ago there was an earthquake in northern Iran that pretty much wiped out a city. The Iranian government blamed the quake on the residents being "too western" in their thinking and lifestyles (in other words, Allah sent the quake to punish those people for their decadence. Any who survived were "blessed" by the very same Allah). Sound familiar to another story from times gone by ? If Sodom and Gomorrah were so decadent that god decided to wipe them out, why are Pattaya, Amsterdam, Budapest and Las Vegas still standing ?

Which raises even more questions about "divine" beings in general. Why these supposedly benevolent, loving beings allow so many innocent people to suffer and die, while others live in luxury. Do they care so little about their children ? Certainly if Jesus could feed 5,000 people with a fish and loaf of bread, God could send another prophet that could cure world hunger and disease ? It's only been 2,000+ years now (funny how so many miracles supposedly happened, and how many prophets appeared in such a short period of history, and little if any since).

Why do they allow thousands and thousands of innocent, faithful people to die from hurricanes, tsunamis, terrorist attacks, disease and famine, yet do nothing about people like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and their minions ? Why did he/they allow 8 million Jews to die in the holocaust ? Just another "test" of their faith ? Some test.

"Hi there ! This is ELOHIM (or if you prefer: YHWH or JEHOVAH). I just dropped in to say hi and throw a little test of faith at you. After scattering my followers around the planet (hmmmm, since when did it become round ?), I'm going to let a group of Christians gather up and slaughter 8 million of you. Even the faithful, true believers that do everything I have commanded of them. But not to worry ! Shortly afterwards, I'll arrange a homeland for you, where you can spend the next (50+) years fighting for your very survival. I'll let my Muslim followers (remember, they believe in the same god oddly enough) attack and try to wipe you out for a few generations. Then, if any of you are still around, I'll try to think up some other diabolical test of your faith. Just remember that you are my chosen ones. My favourite children, and I love all of you. Shalom !"

(Note: Not meant to make fun of the Holocaust or people of Jewish faith. It is meant to be cynical, not humourous. But if you look at it from a non-believer's standpoint, this seems pretty much how it has happened/is happening)

Oh right. I forgot.

God moves in mysterious ways.

It is not our place to know god's mind.

You have to have faith.

You have to believe.

Even if "your" god and "their" god are the same god, and you are killing each other all over the world, just remember, god is on "your" side.

Someone mentioned the 10 commandments earlier. The world would be a much better place if we all could live by those edicts. Too bad so many of the people that have preached those commandments over the years, also were the major violators of them. Even the "holiest of the holies", the highest leaders of the church, would disregard their own doctrine if it furthered their personal aims (which were of course, done in the name of the church and under the will of god).

Many today will try to gloss over and even excuse their actions, claiming they weren't really serving god, or interpreting his word properly, etc, etc.

How ever, if you had tried saying that to those people at the time, you would be the one burning at the stake or boiling in oil.

These days (in some religions) you can get away with (minor) criticisms of the ways things are done, but you still risk excommunication (and the loss of the promised "afterlife" that people are so desperate for). In other religions, you still face death for speaking your mind.

The pure hypocrisy of it all.

(As I'm typing this, I just saw on BBC that a Catholic priest was arrested in France, for his part in the genocide in Rwanda.)

Father Munyeshyaka, 49, is accused of murdering three young Tutsis in his Holy Family parish in the capital Kigali, news agency AFP reported.

He is also accused of raping four young Tutsi women between April and June 1994 and calling for the extremist Hutu Interahamwe militia to commit rape. BBC News - Two held over Rwandan massacres

I suppose (if he really did it of course, presumption of innocence and all) he'll argue that he was doing god's will at the time.

As suegha will be the only one still reading at this point, Hi Suegha !

This ought to keep you busy for a few minutes !

I've been at it for a couple hours now (what with all the researching and editing I've been doing)

(suegha and I went at it awhile ago on the same/similar topic. Things got a little heated and in the end, we agreed to disagree with each other.

Hopefully we can keep it rational and friendly for a little while at least)

(got to save this. With my luck, the thread will have been closed during the time I've been composing this)

[quote name='suegha' date='2007-07-20 21:31:43' post='1429751'

the average age in my church is just over 30.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

A lot of babies there ?

The youngest member is 21 and the oldest member is me at 45 - Add all ages together, divide by the number of members, the average is 33.4!

This thread has been a facinating read with some really intelligent and insightful posts.

I just want to add a few comments. Regarding the proof that there is a God, I think the fact that we can even ask that question proves there's a God. We have a capacity for abstract thought (which I believe is a gift from God) which makes us ponder these 'bigger' things. We alone in the animal kingdom ask ourselves the difficult questions like, why are we here? what happens when we die? This ability proves the existence of God.

On a more practical note for me, looking up into the night sky and seeing the wonder of it all.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

Psalm 19.1

Things of nature speak volumes to me about my creator. All the sights and smells, life and death, holding a new-born baby. And I want to make a link here to faith. 'Belief' and 'faith' are often not the same thing. A friend of mine who witnessed his childs birth and then held the baby in his arms said, "I always had a belief in God, now I have faith."

Also to have a "I must experience it to believe it" view is so limiting and untrue. Even the Atheist believes lots of things he's never experienced. I once said to an atheist friend of mine who was in my house helping me with some DIY, "Have you ever been hit on the knee with a hammer?" He of course replied that he hadn't, so I said "Well, let's see if it hurts!" He obviously protested but got the point, he believed that it would hurt even though he had never been hit on the knee with a hammer. Our Beliefs and faith are based on our life experiences

and our understanding of what's around us. I feel close to God, I know he has a plan that I'm fitting into.

I have to finish with the Bible. I have now been a bible student for 30 years and I believe it's God speaking to me. Every opportunity to read it is a joy, spotting new things every time I read. It's mysteries are unreachable, you cannot exhaust them. So yes, for me the bible also proves that God exists.

Hi Keryd, the 'Hi Suegha' comment made me laugh. Strangly enough I did agree with much of what you said. You and others, however, keep using the word 'religion' as some sort of organisation. Your point about wanting power is valid so long as there is someone (or some thing) wanting power. I have no such organisation telling me what to believe, there is no one to have power, and there is no power to exert.

So I will not answer your whole post (I have a life! ) I will add that most of what you mention has 'Man' and 'Human Nature' writ large all over it.

I 'll be back...

Thanks Kerry for that good post.

You see, whenever I talk to friends who has religious beliefs, when I try to do some reasoning, when I try to make them look at reality, they get a bit annoyed and want to stop. They don't want to discuss it. They don't want to wake up from their dreams. And I don't want to hurt our relationship so I always stop. I really don't mind them having their beliefs.

Kerryd brilliant post. Said it all in great detail. Congratulations and respect.

Wow..... I'm glad I read all that before I have a drink.

Tiggy, I admire your conviction, I really do. But Kerry holds the reality factor for me.

....

I just want to add a few comments. Regarding the proof that there is a God, I think the fact that we can even ask that question proves there's a God. We have a capacity for abstract thought (which I believe is a gift from God) which makes us ponder these 'bigger' things. We alone in the animal kingdom ask ourselves the difficult questions like, why are we here? what happens when we die? This ability proves the existence of God.

....

Ever the nit picker - caught you !

I presume you are not the individual who inspired the ridiculous Eddie Murphy / Dr Doolittle movie so you have NO way of knowing this.

Methinks the second most intelligent species on the planet is getting a tad arrogant.

Animals think , learn and show curiosity.

Dogs dream. I've often heard the muffled "woof" from a fido sleeping in his basket and wondered if it's a bitch or a rabbit in his sights.

Is there a God for dogs ? Is there a doggie heaven ?

If not why not ?

kerryd,

I didn't read it earlier (wanting to stay out of this debate), but upon seeing even our Ol' Crockers praising the post, I had to give it a read/ i must concur with your post and the following praise of it. wow.

edit: Just as I was posting this, my music player (set to random) started on Bjork's "Human Behaviour"

if you ever get close to a human

and human behaviour

be ready be ready to get confused

there's definitely definitely definitely no logic

to human behaviour

but yet so yet so irresistible

and there's no map to human behaviour

they're terribly terribly terribly terribly moody

then all of a sudden turn happy

but, oh, to get involved in the exchange

of human emotions

is ever so ever so satisfying

and there's no map

and a compass wouldn't help at all

FS, in your OP you forgot the Catholic Church for forcing many, many children on the poorest members of society, by refusing to allow birth control or abortion. At least those in Catholic countries - so that's the PI, most South & Central American countries, Ireland (oops!)...

Actually I didn't forget the Papists , they were #1 on the list , but not on the basis of population control. If you are trying to make a point you do well to start with the most outrageous situations you can find which for me was the women whose husbands drive trucks on the "aids highway" and dally with prostitutes at every stop yet some f*cking bishop says their husband shouldn't use a condom anyway when he comes home because it would be "immoral".

Why you say Ireland (oops) ?

Yes I am Irish , though the last time I lived there you were playing with barbie dolls.

I do think ( impressions from the outside) that they may have made some progress.

You really think that the AIDS epidemic of the last 30 years is more outrageous than the servitude that has been forced on women for decades, nay, centuries by the Catholic Church? Worn down by pregnancy after pregnancy? Looking after countless children? Unable (by faith) to refuse their husband his conjugal rights, no matter if he were drunk, violent, or just plain nasty? AIDS wasn't the first STD, you know. Many faithful Catholic women were infected with gonorrheaea, syphillis etc. IMO, my point was far more outrageous than yours...