Biden Warns of a 'Nightmare' Future with Trump, Lists Reasons for Concern

[impulse]

1 minute ago, Roo Island said:

Research the trail of tears. My family's history.

 

How is the trail of tears any different than what the Lakota did to the Apache?

 

[Hawaiian]

37 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

U.S. consumers have a demand for cheap goods, services and foods.

 

Resulting in the U.S. economy having a demand for cheap labour.

 

Immigrants are meeting that demand.

 

 

What’s not to understand?

https://open.lib.umn.edu/principleseconomics/chapter/12-3-labor-markets-at-work

If you read the link in its entirety, then you will see the whole picture and not just what you want to believe.  Not my problem if you still don't understand.

Edited February 11 by Hawaiian
Correction

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

A) Look at the way native tribes treated each other long before the colonies were a spark of someone's imagination. Just about every acre of the US and Canada changed hands long before the colonies, and often in brutal fashion.  They killed each other, often in the most painful way they could devise.   The concept of a peaceful community of noble natives just doesn't comport with historical fact.

 

B) Rosa Parks sat in the front of a bus.  Admirable, sure.  But it's hardly the same as forging a democratic country or writing a constitution.  Unless you're a revisionist.

 

IMO it's pointless to try and educate the luvvies as to the truth about pre European populations ( and they were not all barbarians ), not that I'm giving a pass to what immigrants did to them. Was there even a single treaty the USA made with native Americans that they didn't break? Apparently even now they will not honour the treaty over the Black Hills of Dakota.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

How is the trail of tears any different than what the Lakota did to the Apache?

 

I don't think the Lakota pretended to be law abiding "civilised" people like the immigrants did.

[Roo Island]

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Why would it upset the owner Australian Rupert Murdock who split with Trump and has been supporting the demoncrats as of late???  

Really? The guy who owns Faux News? The media outlet that as of today, just focuses on bashing dems, libs, non whites, etc. While giving the nut job members of the GOP a pass.

 

The NYP is massively biased.

[Roo Island]

42 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

U.S. consumers have a demand for cheap goods, services and foods.

 

Resulting in the U.S. economy having a demand for cheap labour.

 

Immigrants are meeting that demand.

 

 

What’s not to understand?

Seems this guy is getting his info from right wing sites. Thus, the comments bashing liberal cities and immigrants.

 

America needs immigrants. Were an aging population. The laws need changing, but that's been the case for decades. Politicians don't want to change it so it can be a key plank in their election platform. Kinda like Trump just did.

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't think the Lakota pretended to be law abiding "civilised" people like the immigrants did.

 

Nor have they offered reparations or apologies for what they did, or even reflect on the sins of their past.  Like they're demanding from the US, including my peeps, who were getting kicked off their turnip patch in Belarus around 1900.  As if I owe them an apology...  Or the majority of the US people whose families immigrated since the 1800's

 

Because they're only sins if you're a revisionist.  Back then, it was just how the world and geo-politics worked.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

Nor have they offered reparations or apologies for what they did, or even reflect on the sins of their past.  Like they're demanding from the US, including my peeps, who were getting kicked off their turnip patch in Belarus around 1900.  As if I owe them an apology...  Or the majority of the US people whose families immigrated since the 1800's

 

Because they're only sins if you're a revisionist.  Back then, it was just how the world and geo-politics worked.

 

You have a point, except the USA made LEGAL and LAWFUL treaties with them, which they reneged on, so perhaps the US should apologise for not keeping their side of a treaty, and provide some compensation. Can you imagine the consequences of not abiding by a treaty with Russia or similar? Just because they didn't wear suits it doesn't give the USA a pass for illegally breaking treaties.

[Hawaiian]

2 hours ago, Roo Island said:

Removing statutes and things like that which seem to praise atrocities like slavery and the brutality endured by native Americans is a good thing. We need to learn from the past. Not glorify those who committed horrendous acts.

 

Hopefully there are better things to praise. Like Rosa Parks, etc. Though white America might not agree.

King Kamehameha I is credited for unifying the Hawaiian Island under one kingdom.  How he did it is a story of treachery and the slaughtering of other Hawaiians.  Yet there are statues of him in prominent places and no one in their right mind would suggest removing them. 

Throughout history this has occurred over and over with statues and monuments erected to these "heroes."  Removing them accomplishes nothing, but satisfying those who think it does, for whatever reason.

[Hawaiian]

16 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

Seems this guy is getting his info from right wing sites. Thus, the comments bashing liberal cities and immigrants.

 

America needs immigrants. Were an aging population. The laws need changing, but that's been the case for decades. Politicians don't want to change it so it can be a key plank in their election platform. Kinda like Trump just did.

I didn't know official government statistics were generated from right wing sites.  Right wing CBO?  News to me.

For your information, the diversion of funds to illegal immigrants are being decried by those directly affected in those liberal cities.  They are being denied help because of diverted funds.

If immigration laws need to be changed, then change them.  Illegal immigration creates more problems. then it solves.  Do you think the FBI is lying about the dangers of illegals entering the country?

Edited February 11 by Hawaiian
Additional comment.

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m quite certain the CBO did not say ‘illegals will force down wages’.

 

I suspect they made some remark about suppressing wages in certain low skill sectors, which if Americans are working in ‘illegals’ didn’t put them there.

 

Immigrants are doing the work Americans don’t want to and delivering services to Americans at prices Americans want to pay, not least of all, farm labour and food processing which have a direct impact on costs at the grocery store.

 

 

 

Not this tired old shibboleth again.

 

There is no such thing as work Americans dont want to do. There IS work that Americans won't do for the wages that an illegal immigrant would accept.  The majority of farm labour and food processing jobs are still held by Americans and legal residents. More than 90% of hospitality workers are the same. 80% in construction, as well as housekeeping/maid jobs.  

 

So what are the jobs that Americans aren't doing again? 

 

https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release-millions-undocumented-immigrants-essential-americas-recovery-new-report-shows/

[Hanaguma]

2 hours ago, Roo Island said:

Removing statutes and things like that which seem to praise atrocities like slavery and the brutality endured by native Americans is a good thing. We need to learn from the past. Not glorify those who committed horrendous acts.

 

Hopefully there are better things to praise. Like Rosa Parks, etc. Though white America might not agree.

You don't learn about history by hiding it or destroying it.  

 

How was Penn's statue praising atrocities exactly?  He was, like many historical figures, a complicated and flawed person.  Looking at the past through 21st century social justice glasses is childish and ridiculous. 

 

A statue of Teddy Roosevelt was removed from the Museum of Natural History in New York, for God's sake.  

[impulse]

6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

So what are the jobs that Americans aren't doing again? 

 

Reminds me of the California nursing shortages.  Because all the nurses were moving to lower cost states where they could afford to live on a nurse's salary.  I met a lot of them in Amarillo, of all places.  And Austin and Houston...  Cali refugees.

 

Scratch a labor shortage, and you'll usually find an imbalance between wages on offer and the cost of a decent life. 

That said, I am all for legal immigration.  With vetted immigrants that hit the ground with skills and work ethic we need, so they aren't a decades long burden on taxpayers.  But that's not the way it's happening.  And not just in the USA.  Europe seems to be suffering the same.

 

[Roo Island]

52 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Nor have they offered reparations or apologies for what they did, or even reflect on the sins of their past.  Like they're demanding from the US, including my peeps, who were getting kicked off their turnip patch in Belarus around 1900.  As if I owe them an apology...  Or the majority of the US people whose families immigrated since the 1800's

 

Because they're only sins if you're a revisionist.  Back then, it was just how the world and geo-politics worked.

 

How about the pilgrims who ran the natives off their land. Or the countless times that the white immigrants did. I'm guessing an apology is due?

 

What about the native Hawaiians? Decimated by the arrival of the whites. I'm guessing another apology?

 

P.S. we're not "back then" now. Luckily. Times have changed.

[Roo Island]

49 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

King Kamehameha I is credited for unifying the Hawaiian Island under one kingdom.  How he did it is a story of treachery and the slaughtering of other Hawaiians.  Yet there are statues of him in prominent places and no one in their right mind would suggest removing them. 

Throughout history this has occurred over and over with statues and monuments erected to these "heroes."  Removing them accomplishes nothing, but satisfying those who think it does, for whatever reason.

Completely different.

[Roo Island]

41 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Not this tired old shibboleth again.

 

There is no such thing as work Americans dont want to do. There IS work that Americans won't do for the wages that an illegal immigrant would accept.  The majority of farm labour and food processing jobs are still held by Americans and legal residents. More than 90% of hospitality workers are the same. 80% in construction, as well as housekeeping/maid jobs.  

 

So what are the jobs that Americans aren't doing again? 

 

https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release-millions-undocumented-immigrants-essential-americas-recovery-new-report-shows/

Do you know how much immigrant farm workers make? Big money. Guaranteed. There are lots of jobs Americans won't do. Easier to collect benefits than work

[Hawaiian]

4 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

How about the pilgrims who ran the natives off their land. Or the countless times that the white immigrants did. I'm guessing an apology is due?

 

What about the native Hawaiians? Decimated by the arrival of the whites. I'm guessing another apology?

 

P.S. we're not "back then" now. Luckily. Times have changed.

The native Hawaiian population was decimated by diseases from foreigners.  The local population had no immunity to measles, STDs, etc.  which had a devastating effect.

It was a young American who helped King Kamehameha conquer the islands, along with the use of foreign weapons.  Eventually, Hawaiian royalty married foreigners and the rest is history.  There were also native Hawaiians who joined those in overthrowing Queen Liliuokalani. 

[Hawaiian]

21 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

Completely different.

Yep.  Different strokes for different folks.

Edited February 11 by Hawaiian
correction

[Hawaiian]

6 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

Do you know how much immigrant farm workers make? Big money. Guaranteed. There are lots of jobs Americans won't do. Easier to collect benefits than work

Enough of you nonsense.  A guarantee from you is a joke.  And a sad one at that.

[Hawaiian]

9 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

Do you know how much immigrant farm workers make? Big money. Guaranteed. There are lots of jobs Americans won't do. Easier to collect benefits than work

I guess you must have first hand knowledge of this. 

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Hawaiian said:

King Kamehameha I is credited for unifying the Hawaiian Island under one kingdom.  How he did it is a story of treachery and the slaughtering of other Hawaiians.  Yet there are statues of him in prominent places and no one in their right mind would suggest removing them. 

 

IMO the takeaway there is that they weren't backward cultures.  They (along with the S Americans and Mexicans of pre-history) were very advanced.  To think of them as backward and their cultures as simple is to deny historical evidence. 

 

And if you want to award reparations or restore land, you have to be really careful about who you'd award it to.  The people you ran off, or the people they ran off, or the people they ran off...

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Not this tired old shibboleth again.

 

There is no such thing as work Americans dont want to do. There IS work that Americans won't do for the wages that an illegal immigrant would accept.  The majority of farm labour and food processing jobs are still held by Americans and legal residents. More than 90% of hospitality workers are the same. 80% in construction, as well as housekeeping/maid jobs.  

 

So what are the jobs that Americans aren't doing again? 

 

https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release-millions-undocumented-immigrants-essential-americas-recovery-new-report-shows/

I look forward to you backing legislation for a living minimum wage.

 

Or are you going to skip that and blame immigrants?

[Roo Island]

36 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

I guess you must have first hand knowledge of this. 

Sure do. Obviously you don't

[spidermike007]

16 hours ago, candide said:

Russian interference to help Trump has been acknowledged and exposed also by the GOP led Committee. 

There is no question about that, they had so much dirt on Trump they knew that he could be easily manipulated. Nobody really knows the extent of Kompramat that they had on the big guy. 

 

Videotaped Moscow orgies? And what else? 

[Hanaguma]

21 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I look forward to you backing legislation for a living minimum wage.

 

Or are you going to skip that and blame immigrants?

Cool, now we are getting somewhere.  Could you explain what you mean by a "living minimum wage"? Kind of important if we want to move forward. Otherwise, it is just another meaningless platitude. 

 

I don't blame immigrants for anything at all. My wife was/is an immigrant to my country. Took almost a year to get the paperwork done, fees etc.   Immigrants are great.

 

However...... illegal immigrants are not. Immigration policy needs to take into account the present and future needs of the country.   The days of the happy brown people picking lettuce in California are almost over. Today's illegal immigrants are the Hispanic kids in New York, who beat up cops and SHOOT at them when they are busted robbing a store. 

 

ETA: still waiting to hear your comprehensive list of jobs that "Americans won't do".

Edited February 11 by Hanaguma

[Hawaiian]

1 hour ago, Hawaiian said:

I guess you must have first hand knowledge of this. 

48 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

Sure do. Obviously you don't

 

Okay strawberry picker, stop confusing the issue.  The subject matter is illegals. My one experience with Mexican coffee pickers was awful.  Because they were piece workers, they damaged the trees and picked both green and ripe berries.  Never again.

I grew up with sugar and pineapple workers who were unionized and made decent income with good benefits.  Some were immigrant laborers and to my knowledge none were illegal.  When the plantations closed many joined me in unionized construction work. 

So, I am not completely ignorant like you claim me to be.

 

Edited February 11 by Hawaiian
Correction

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Cool, now we are getting somewhere.  Could you explain what you mean by a "living minimum wage"? Kind of important if we want to move forward. Otherwise, it is just another meaningless platitude. 

 

I don't blame immigrants for anything at all. My wife was/is an immigrant to my country. Took almost a year to get the paperwork done, fees etc.   Immigrants are great.

 

However...... illegal immigrants are not. Immigration policy needs to take into account the present and future needs of the country.   The days of the happy brown people picking lettuce in California are almost over. Today's illegal immigrants are the Hispanic kids in New York, who beat up cops and SHOOT at them when they are busted robbing a store. 

 

ETA: still waiting to hear your comprehensive list of jobs that "Americans won't do".

I agree with the CEPR on what the minimum wage should be, and would be had it not stagnated in since the late 70s  (coincident with the rise of trickle down economics).

 

https://www.cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/

 

Refer jobs Americans won’t do:

 

https://slate.com/business/2007/01/what-are-the-jobs-americans-won-t-do.html

[Hanaguma]

29 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I agree with the CEPR on what the minimum wage should be, and would be had it not stagnated in since the late 70s  (coincident with the rise of trickle down economics).

 

https://www.cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/

 

Refer jobs Americans won’t do:

 

https://slate.com/business/2007/01/what-are-the-jobs-americans-won-t-do.html

Your first article talks about the minimum wage, not what you claimed as the "minimum LIVING wage". They are different. And in any case, the actual minimum wage is $0.00. That is what workers get paid when they price themselves out of the job market.

 

As to your Slate article, it is 17 years old! Oh, and does not differentiate between legal immigrants and illegal. Also talks about visa programs for various industries, which I support and also have nothing to do with illegal immigration. Oh, and it is Slate, a far left slanted website. Other than that, great article. 

[Hawaiian]

19 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I agree with the CEPR on what the minimum wage should be, and would be had it not stagnated in since the late 70s  (coincident with the rise of trickle down economics).

 

https://www.cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/

 

Refer jobs Americans won’t do:

 

https://slate.com/business/2007/01/what-are-the-jobs-americans-won-t-do.html

Interesting.  From my personal observations, I've noticed different jobs seem to attract different ethnic groups.  Filipinos, if given a choice, tend to choose work in care giving and nursing.  And they are very good at it.  Hawaiians are good as heavy construction equipment operators.  Many Japanese choose carpentry and woodworking jobs. Caucasians, like myself, are found everywhere.  I started as a carpenter and eventually became a licensed general contractor.  My workers were a melting pot of ethnicities. Just saying.

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Hawaiian said:

Two days after this post, the CBO in a 10 year budget estimate said the influx of illegal immigrants will force down wages in the U.S.

Not good news for LEGAL American wage earners.  Off course, according to you this will be offset by increased contributions by these illegals to Social Security and Medicare by these illegals.  By the way, many illegals work under the table and pay no payroll taxes.  And if wages go down, then payroll taxes go down.  So, tell me how all this benefits this REAL hardworking Americans?

Provide a link to the CBO statement if you want me to comment on it.  I'll make it easy for your, here's a link to the CBO Ten year Projection.    https://www.cbo.gov/data/budget-economic-data  Now show us where it states that illegal immigrants will force down wages.  I want to read the context in which that statement was made.

 

Some people in the country worked under the table.  However the "respectable" employers of illegals, like the Trump resorts, prefer illegals with fake papers so that they can pretend to not know the workers were illegal.  Those employers deduct taxes and Social Security.

 

How many work under the table and how many pay taxes?  I don't know, and neither do you.

 

How does having a declining working age population supporting an increasing number of retirees benefit anyone?