As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, WDSmart said:

That's an EXCELLENT question and goes to the heart of this matter.

I think NO LIVES LOST on either side would be the only ACCEPTABLE figure to retrieve not only these two hostages but the other 34 also.

I think that could be done with an agreement that includes Hamas returning the hostages unharmed for a permanent ceasefire and other agreements on both sides. I've posted my suggested outline for such an agreement before, and it was deleted, so I won't post it again. But I'll say any agreement has to include not only a hostage return and a ceasefire but also a UN peacekeeping force and an eventual two-state solution. 

And, no more lives lost on either side.

Without an actual peacekeeping force from countries not friendly to israel or under American control ( absolutely no American involvement ) in Gaza, Hamas should never agree to a return of the hostages, and I doubt they would, as like myself they probably have zero trust in anything that comes from netanyahu.

[Wobblybob]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Without an actual peacekeeping force from countries not friendly to israel or under American control ( absolutely no American involvement ) in Gaza, Hamas should never agree to a return of the hostages, and I doubt they would, as like myself they probably have zero trust in anything that comes from netanyahu.

I am totally lot for words when reading your hate posts. "Hamas should never agree to the return of the hostages" and that is why the Palestian terrorists must be eliminated.

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Wobblybob said:

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Without an actual peacekeeping force from countries not friendly to israel or under American control ( absolutely no American involvement ) in Gaza, Hamas should never agree to a return of the hostages, and I doubt they would, as like myself they probably have zero trust in anything that comes from netanyahu.

I am totally lot for words when reading your hate posts. "Hamas should never agree to the return of the hostages" and that is why the Palestian terrorists must be eliminated.

You forgot the antecedent conditional phrase, "Without an actual peacekeeping force..." 

[Wobblybob]

Just now, WDSmart said:

You forgot the antecedent conditional phrase, "Without an actual peacekeeping force..." 

I have not forgot anything, do you agree that "Hamas should not agree to the release of the hostages"? 

[Rimmer]

a personal attack has been removed also troll posts and replies

[Wobblybob]

Bait post reported.

Don't start a war and then play the victim when you start losing!

[WDSmart]

4 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

I have not forgot anything, do you agree that "Hamas should not agree to the release of the hostages"? 

I understand that the hostages are the only bargaining chips that Hamas has. Israel has military power as their most potent bargaining chip. So yes, I would like Hamas to release the hostages, but I would also like Israel to cease their attacks on Gaza - a permanent ceasefire. Unfortunately, neither side will do either of these unconditionally.

So, what I have been recommending is an agreement that includes BOTH the release of the hostages and a permanent ceasefire. And I think a UN peacekeeping force would need to be implemented to ensure both sides live up to this agreement. I also think the agreement should also include commitments to talks about how to divvy up the land in question to reach a two-state solution. I've previously given my recommendations on that.

[Bkk Brian]

23 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I understand that the hostages are the only bargaining chips that Hamas has. Israel has military power as their most potent bargaining chip. So yes, I would like Hamas to release the hostages, but I would also like Israel to cease their attacks on Gaza - a permanent ceasefire. Unfortunately, neither side will do either of these unconditionally.

So, what I have been recommending is an agreement that includes BOTH the release of the hostages and a permanent ceasefire. And I think a UN peacekeeping force would need to be implemented to ensure both sides live up to this agreement. I also think the agreement should also include commitments to talks about how to divvy up the land in question to reach a two-state solution. I've previously given my recommendations on that.

Hamas are terrorists intend on genocidal acts on Israel, they will not stop until they are crushed. Taking hostages, murdering them, abusing and raping them should show you the animals that Israel is dealing with here. You talk of the hostages as bargaining chips. Back to your fiction book writing. This is reality.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Here is the result of my Bing search for "genocide" and the definition provided by the online Oxford Language Dictionary:

"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group" genocide definition - Search (bing.com)

If you think that's not a 100% accurate description of what Israel is doing in Gaza, you're just refusing to accept the facts like an arrogant, know-it-all, wanna-be professor.

So, Hamas is committing genocide, we agree. 

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Hamas are terrorists intend on genocidal acts on Israel, they will not stop until they are crushed. Taking hostages, murdering them, abusing and raping them should show you the animals that Israel is dealing with here. You talk of the hostages as bargaining chips. Back to your fiction book writing. This is reality.

I agree that the end goal of Hamas, the reclamation of all their land from the Israelis (one-state solution), includes a potential tactic of genocide. But, I also believe the end goal of the Zionists is the acquisition and control of all that land (one-state solution) includes current tactics of genocide. That is evident from their actions in Gaza. I do abhor the treatment of the hostages you described above, but I also abhor the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, which has resulted in almost 30,000 deaths and almost 70,000 injured. Gaza death toll climbs 28,064 Palestinians killed, 67,611 injured since Oct. 7, health ministry says | Reuters

Yes, I do see hostages as bargaining chips, just as I see military might and the continuation of these attacks on Gaza as the same. Both of these will be very important and will be used in any negotiations. 

I wish all this were fiction. It's not. It's real, and it's certainly one of the most horrendous non-fiction stories I have ever read about. 

[WDSmart]

13 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So, Hamas is committing genocide, we agree. 

No, I never agreed that Hamas is committing genocide. They don't have the military ability to do that. I will agree they would like to if they could, but they can't without the military force to do so. 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

I agree that the end goal of Hamas, the reclamation of all their land from the Israelis (one-state solution), includes a potential tactic of genocide. But, I also believe the end goal of the Zionists is the acquisition and control of all that land (one-state solution) includes current tactics of genocide. That is evident from their actions in Gaza. I do abhor the treatment of the hostages you described above, but I also abhor the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, which has resulted in almost 30,000 deaths and almost 70,000 injured. Gaza death toll climbs 28,064 Palestinians killed, 67,611 injured since Oct. 7, health ministry says | Reuters

Yes, I do see hostages as bargaining chips, just as I see military might and the continuation of these attacks on Gaza as the same. Both of these will be very important and will be used in any negotiations. 

I wish all this were fiction. It's not. It's real, and it's certainly one of the most horrendous non-fiction stories I have ever read about. 

You fail to see intent in actions. Hamas has intend when it murders and carries out its atrocities. It is proud of those actions to the point that it broadcasts them worldwide. Israel is defending itself from Hamas the terrorists, it wants to wipe out Hamas not civilians. Hamas makes no such distinction and you know it.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I never agreed that Hamas is committing genocide. They don't have the military ability to do that. I will agree they would like to if they could, but they can't without the military force to do so. 

That's a ridiculous position to take, Oct 7th was a genocidal act whether it could finish the job or not. Their repeated statements that they will do it again and again are further proof.

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You fail to see intent in actions. Hamas has intend when it murders and carries out its atrocities. It is proud of those actions to the point that it broadcasts them worldwide. Israel is defending itself from Hamas the terrorists, it wants to wipe out Hamas not civilians. Hamas makes no such distinction and you know it.

I agree with half of what you say above.

Hamas are terrorists. They do not distinguish between civilians and military forces. In fact, they seem to prefer to attack civilians since, of course, they are the softer target.

The iDF, however, with their indiscriminate bombings in Gaza, has also shown they do not distinguish, or at least don't care about any distinction, between civilians and militants. They will kill 100 civilians to kill one terrorist and feel justified in doing that.

This is why I do not support either Hamas or the extreme right-wing factions in Israel (I call these "Zionists"). They are both determined to continue killing to drive towards their efforts to secure all of this land in a one-state solution. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

I agree with half of what you say above.

Hamas are terrorists. They do not distinguish between civilians and military forces. In fact, they seem to prefer to attack civilians since, of course, they are the softer target.

The iDF, however, with their indiscriminate bombings in Gaza, has also shown they do not distinguish, or at least don't care about any distinction, between civilians and militants. They will kill 100 civilians to kill one terrorist and feel justified in doing that.

This is why I do not support either Hamas or the extreme right-wing factions in Israel (I call these "Zionists"). They are both determined to continue killing to drive towards their efforts to secure all of this land in a one-state solution. 

Plenty of evidence that you ignore that the IDF do exactly that which you claim they dont. The iDF, however, with their indiscriminate bombings in Gaza, has also shown they do not distinguish

 

Memo to the 'Experts': Stop Comparing Israel's War in Gaza to Anything. It Has No Precedent | Opinion

The truth is that Israel has painstakingly followed the laws of armed conflict and implemented many steps to prevent civilian casualties, despite enormous challenges. Israel's military faced over 30,000 Hamas militants in over 400 miles of defensive and offensive tunnels embedded in and under civilian areas, populations and protected sites such as hospitals, mosques, schools, and United Nations facilities across multiple cities.

Hamas' strategy is to use Palestinian civilians as human shields, because their goal is not to defeat Israel's military or to hold terrain; it is far more sinister and medieval—to use the death and suffering of Palestinian civilians to rally international support to their cause and demand that Israel halt their war.

https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891

[WDSmart]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

That's a ridiculous position to take, Oct 7th was a genocidal act whether it could finish the job or not. Their repeated statements that they will do it again and again are further proof.

Oct 7th was not what I would call "genocide." It could be seen, I agree, as a prelude to an attempt at genocide. But, as I've said in my previous post, Hamas does not have the military power to kill or drive out all (or a majority) of the Israelis from what they consider to be their land. Israel, however, does. That's why I call the IDF's indiscriminate bombings and large-scale killings and wounding in Gaza "genocide."

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

Oct 7th was not what I would call "genocide." It could be seen, I agree, as a prelude to an attempt at genocide. But, as I've said in my previous post, Hamas does not have the military power to kill or drive out all (or a majority) of the Israelis from what they consider to be their land. Israel, however, does. That's why I call the IDF's indiscriminate bombings and large-scale killings and wounding in Gaza "genocide."

The act of genocide does not mean you have to wipe out everyone, it means you have the intent to.

[WDSmart]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The act of genocide does not mean you have to wipe out everyone, it means you have the intent to.

Okay, I'll agree with you that this is just a matter of semantics. 

I see the "act of genocide" implies you are actually doing it, not just intending or wishing you could. It's the same as the "act of killing or murder." That means you've killed someone, not just that is your intent or wishing you could.

But, I will accept your use of the word when you apply that to Hamas. I agree they would very much like to do that. 

[Yellowtail]

35 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I never agreed that Hamas is committing genocide. They don't have the military ability to do that. I will agree they would like to if they could, but they can't without the military force to do so. 

Well, here's your post: 

 

Hamas deliberately killed of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

 

It that true or not? 

 

 

 

 

`

[Neeranam]

29 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Okay, I'll agree with you that this is just a matter of semantics. 

I see the "act of genocide" implies you are actually doing it, not just intending or wishing you could. It's the same as the "act of killing or murder." That means you've killed someone, not just that is your intent or wishing you could.

But, I will accept your use of the word when you apply that to Hamas. I agree they would very much like to do that. 

I wonder if Hamas would like to kill all Israelis, or all Jews.

Obviously they have not committed Genocide or even have the means to.

 

 

Edited February 15 by Neeranam

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Neeranam said:

I wonder if Hamas would like to kill all Israelis, or all Jews.

 

 

They only want to kill all the Jews.

 

They would not kill all of the almost two million Muslim Israelis, but they would kill all the Muslims in the IDF. 

[transam]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I wonder if Hamas would like to kill all Israelis, or all Jews.

Obviously they have not committed Genocide or even have the means to.

 

 

Gawd 'elp us............🥴

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I wonder if Hamas would like to kill all Israelis, or all Jews.

Obviously they have not committed Genocide or even have the means to.

 

 

Not according to your pal WDSmart. His definition and comments indicate otherwise.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Gawd 'elp us............🥴

Hey brother, where you been? 

[transam]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Hey brother, where you been? 

Away from the likes of you know who.............🥺

[WDSmart]

18 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, here's your post: 

 

Hamas deliberately killed of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

 

It that true or not? 

 

 

 

 

`

Since you just won't let this drop, I'll answer your question.

No, that is not "true," or at least is not my interpretation of that definition as it applies to Hamas and Oct 7.

On Oct 7, Hamas killed something less than 1,500 people. Israel revises Oct. 7 death toll down to 1,200 as long process of identifying victims nears close - Jewish Telegraphic Agency (jta.org). That, IMO, is, when compared to the total population of Israel, over 9 million, not a large enough number to be considered a genocide. Israel Population (2024) - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

[WDSmart]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Not according to your pal WDSmart. His definition and comments indicate otherwise.

No. See my explanation in my post above...

Edited February 15 by WDSmart

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Since you just won't let this drop, I'll answer your question.

No, that is not "true," or at least is not my interpretation of that definition as it applies to Hamas and Oct 7.

On Oct 7, Hamas killed something less than 1,500 people. Israel revises Oct. 7 death toll down to 1,200 as long process of identifying victims nears close - Jewish Telegraphic Agency (jta.org). That, IMO, is, when compared to the total population of Israel, over 9 million, not a large enough number to be considered a genocide. Israel Population (2024) - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

So, you are arguing that 1,200 is not a lot of people? 

 

Why, because you don't consider Jews really people? 

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Since you just won't let this drop, I'll answer your question.

No, that is not "true," or at least is not my interpretation of that definition as it applies to Hamas and Oct 7.

On Oct 7, Hamas killed something less than 1,500 people. Israel revises Oct. 7 death toll down to 1,200 as long process of identifying victims nears close - Jewish Telegraphic Agency (jta.org). That, IMO, is, when compared to the total population of Israel, over 9 million, not a large enough number to be considered a genocide. Israel Population (2024) - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

Not bad going for a few hours work. 1,200 innocent people. Just imagine if they had succeeded in their aims and had a few days there.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think anyone would be as foolish to suggest this was Genocide, especially as those targetted were soldiers.

It was a retaliation terrorist attack.

STATEMENT OF SCHOLARS OF HOLOCAUST STUDIES AND OF GENOCIDE   STUDIES AND PREVENTION:

Declaring the Atrocities   Committed by Hamas Against Israeli Civilians as Crimes Against Humanity, War   Crimes and Genocide

Recognizing, that on October 7,   2023, in tandem with massive rocket attacks on dozens of Israeli cities and   villages, more than 1,500 armed Hamas militants illegally broke through the   southern Israeli border with Gaza. They committed genocidal massacres of more   than 1,400 Israeli civilians, ambushing them on the streets of their   villages, breaking into their houses, and butchering them in the most cruel   and vicious ways. Families hiding in their houses were murdered, including   men, women, children, babies, and the elderly. The attackers set civilians'   houses on fire, burning the inhabitants alive. They mutilated and burned the   bodies of murdered Israelis. They raped Israeli women;

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/holocaust-genocide-scholars-condemn-oct-7-hamas-massacre