As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And ?

I'm guessing that you think for some reason that I'm disagreeng with you. I could be wrong about that.. I'm pointing out that it isn't only Jewish people who are supporting Israel. That, in fact, there are a lot more Evangelicals than Jews in the US and they are far more uncritical in their support of Israel.  Which tends to shoot down the kind of disguised anti-Semitism sometimes exemplified by the use of phrases such as "Israeli-occupied territories" to describe Washington, D.C.

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 your question below, I showed you where it was already answered

 

 

OK. So your position is that as a possible unhappy outcome becomes more likely, fear levels remain the same. Maybe if the Egyptians are all taking meds, otherwise not so much.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

OK. So your position is that as a possible unhappy outcome becomes more likely, fear levels remain the same. Maybe if the Egyptians are all taking meds, otherwise not so much.

What part of this do you not understand:

 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So what exactlyl does unsatisfactory mean? What plans has Israel offered that could make a significant difference and not force the Palestinians to flee South.

 

You're right. Israel doesn't need to control the border to push them out. But it help them to avoid a confrontation with Egyptian forces.

 

I was afraid for a moment that you wouldn't explain why the issue of settling Palestinians in Egypt has been laid to rest. Egypt doesn't think so. And why, even if it isn't called "settling" but something like "sheltering", why it wouldn't turn into "settling".

 

It's a good thing for your argument that it's just me criticizing Israeli strategy & tactics and not, among others, the US government. Because if that were the case, it would invalidate your critique.

 

As for denying the return of Palestinians. Egypt has built 3 lines of berms and a wall.  And done a quite thorough job on tunnels. And doesn't Israel have such things as robotic machine guns at its disposal? I seem to recall something about that.

 

What is wrong with you? Unsatisfactory, as in not providing a good enough or full solution to the issue of all them refugees being in what's about to become a battle zone, and how to move them elsewhere, out of harm's way. The options discussed address this only partially. I doubt you did not get that, you're simply badgering now, for no good reason.

 

As for your second comment - the Egyptian forces are on the other side of the border (as in on Egyptian soil). Not really sure how you imagine things to go down, but a 'confrontation' (assuming there would be such) is more likely to happen earlier (if/when Israel tries to move forces to control the route). I don't quite see Israeli troops lined along the borders while hosts of refugees trying to pass through.

 

The issue or resettling Gazans in Sinai is off the table - Egypt firmly objected, so did the USA. Notice there's very little talk about it since. Given how things stand between the Biden administration and the Israeli government, it's a non-starter.

 

It's a good thing that you make nonsense comments which are easy to counter - I did address your words, because that's what we do on these so-called 'discussions', by extension, though my comment applies to critique on offer by countries and governments as well.

 

Not sure what you're on about with your last comment, but then you're all over the place anyway.

 

 

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You might try reading that Times of Israel article before pronouncing what I posted to be a meme. And the nytimes article, too.

 

It's a meme, in the sense that such comments were made numerous times in the past.

[Morch]

Hamas warns Israeli offensive into Rafah will cause ‘tens of thousands’ of casualties; AP says 31 killed there early Sat.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-warns-israeli-offensive-into-rafah-will-cause-tens-of-thousands-of-casualties/

 

New heights of cynicism there.

Like Hamas cares about Gazan lives.

Same Hamas who's leader referred to such casualties as 'necessary sacrifices'.

 

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

Hamas warns Israeli offensive into Rafah will cause ‘tens of thousands’ of casualties; AP says 31 killed there early Sat.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-warns-israeli-offensive-into-rafah-will-cause-tens-of-thousands-of-casualties/

 

New heights of cynicism there.

Like Hamas cares about Gazan lives.

Same Hamas who's leader referred to such casualties as 'necessary sacrifices'.

 

Well, I'm certainly glad Premier Netanyahu has never said anything like that about Israeli troops... 

"On Memorial Day, premier also says the sacrifices made by Israel's troops are necessary for peace."

 

Netanyahu: Sacrifices made by Israel's troops necessary for peace - Israel News - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

[Morch]

Three more articles regarding this:

 

PM says IDF must operate in Rafah, but will let civilians evacuate first

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-says-idf-must-operate-in-rafah-but-will-let-civilians-evacuate-first/

 

Netanyahu said to believe Israel has 1 month to finish Rafah operation amid global ire

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-believe-israel-has-1-month-to-finish-rafah-operation-amid-global-ire/

 

These address the military necessities, the problem represented by the mass of civilians in place, the timeline constraints and international pressures. Another relatively minor point, is Sinwar being out of touch. I'm not saying it's true or not, nor guessing the reasons - but there is this: say Sinwar (or possibly others of the Hamas's Gaza leadership) are dead. What then? Who called the shots? Who deals for the hostages? Having no leadership or a fragmented one might result in severe difficulties.

 

And then there's this, which I found more interesting that the other two:

 

Key to toppling Hamas, Rafah now a far bigger challenge for Israel than it needed to be

https://www.timesofisrael.com/key-to-toppling-hamas-rafah-now-a-far-bigger-challenge-for-israel-than-it-needed-to-be/

 

It details how lack of planning by the IDF (influenced by political issues) led to gaps in information, lack of plans and caused the delayed response. Also discusses previous plans from years past, which had they been reworked/adopted could have led to a different outcome than the current one.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Well, I'm certainly glad Premier Netanyahu has never said anything like that about Israeli troops... 

"On Memorial Day, premier also says the sacrifices made by Israel's troops are necessary for peace."

 

Netanyahu: Sacrifices made by Israel's troops necessary for peace - Israel News - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

 

The Israeli Prime Minister referred to soldiers.

The Hamas leadership was talking about civilian deaths.

 

That difference.

[WDSmart]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The Israeli Prime Minister referred to soldiers.

The Hamas leadership was talking about civilian deaths.

 

That difference.

On both sides...
Civilians are killed without their willing participation in the hostilities.
Soldiers are killed during their willing participation in the hostilities.
What difference does this make? Deaths are deaths.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

On both sides...
Civilians are killed without their willing participation in the hostilities.
Soldiers are killed during their willing participation in the hostilities.
What difference does this make? Deaths are deaths.

Makes all the difference in the world. Soldiers know they take that risk. Innocent civilians, women and children do not and are not expected to. Did Hamas ask the civilians in Gaza to offer up their lives?

[WDSmart]

30 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Makes all the difference in the world. Soldiers know they take that risk. Innocent civilians, women and children do not and are not expected to. Did Hamas ask the civilians in Gaza to offer up their lives?

I'm only responding to this since you asked me a direct question, and I'm afraid if I don't answer it, you'll keep asking it and reminding me I haven't answered for the next week or so.

So, in answer to your question above, my response is: "I really don't know. Hamas may have warned the civilians in Gaza, and the citizens in Gaza may have known all along that they have always been under threat of attack by Israel. But, even those who were aware of this did not, from what I can gather, have any other place they could go. In any event, those Palestinians killed, wounded, and displaced in Gaza by the IDF were, indeed, casualties of this war, whether they were unwilling civilians or willing Hamas fighters."  

[Bkk Brian]

53 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I'm only responding to this since you asked me a direct question, and I'm afraid if I don't answer it, you'll keep asking it and reminding me I haven't answered for the next week or so.

So, in answer to your question above, my response is: "I really don't know. Hamas may have warned the civilians in Gaza, and the citizens in Gaza may have known all along that they have always been under threat of attack by Israel. But, even those who were aware of this did not, from what I can gather, have any other place they could go. In any event, those Palestinians killed, wounded, and displaced in Gaza by the IDF were, indeed, casualties of this war, whether they were unwilling civilians or willing Hamas fighters."  

I couldn't care less whether you answered it or not, it was a deliberately obvious reply that you made into a mish mash.

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I couldn't care less whether you answered it or not, it was a deliberately obvious reply that you made into a mish mash.

I answered your question in a "deliberately obvious reply" with a simple four-word sentence. "I really don't know." I then went on to give my opinion on the subject. So, you got the best of both worlds! 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I answered your question in a "deliberately obvious reply" with a simple four-word sentence. "I really don't know." I then went on to give my opinion on the subject. So, you got the best of both worlds! 

So your angry that so many civilians have been killed but you don't know if they gave their permission to act as martyrs. Yea right.

 

Lets get to facts. Hamas are the ones that use them as human shields and they are forced into being martyrs.

 

 

[WDSmart]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

So your angry that so many civilians have been killed but you don't know if they gave their permission to act as martyrs. Yea right.

 

Lets get to facts. Hamas are the ones that use them as human shields and they are forced into being martyrs.

 

 

And, if what you say is true, then the IDF are the ones that are killing those civilian "shields" - men, women, and children - to get at Hamas. What does that make them?

What you and so many other pro-Zionists here on this Topic can't seem to understand or appreciate - feel - is that the Israelis are trying to take complete control of what used to be the Palestinian's homeland, and the Palestinians are trying to get that land back, or at least hold on to what they have left. 

That's my bottom line on this AseanNow Topic and every Topic related to this awful war. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

And, if what you say is true, then the IDF are the ones that are killing those civilian "shields" - men, women, and children - to get at Hamas. What does that make them?

What you and so many other pro-Zionists here on this Topic can't seem to understand or appreciate - feel - is that the Israelis are trying to take complete control of what used to be the Palestinian's homeland, and the Palestinians are trying to get that land back, or at least hold on to what they have left. 

That's my bottom line on this AseanNow Topic and every Topic related to this awful war. 

Its what Hamas says, listen to them on the vid....................

[Morch]

3 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I'm only responding to this since you asked me a direct question, and I'm afraid if I don't answer it, you'll keep asking it and reminding me I haven't answered for the next week or so.

So, in answer to your question above, my response is: "I really don't know. Hamas may have warned the civilians in Gaza, and the citizens in Gaza may have known all along that they have always been under threat of attack by Israel. But, even those who were aware of this did not, from what I can gather, have any other place they could go. In any event, those Palestinians killed, wounded, and displaced in Gaza by the IDF were, indeed, casualties of this war, whether they were unwilling civilians or willing Hamas fighters."  

 

Hamas did not warn the civilians in the Gaza Strip. Even Hamas leadership abroad was notified only a short time ahead. This was reported, discussed and so on. Once again, you're either not aware of basic facts, or try to doubt them (based on nothing whatsoever). As for the rest of your nonsense - all of them Hamas tunnels could have saved a lot of Gazan lives. The option was not on offer, though.

 

More waffle to cover your previous nonsense comment.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

And, if what you say is true, then the IDF are the ones that are killing those civilian "shields" - men, women, and children - to get at Hamas. What does that make them?

What you and so many other pro-Zionists here on this Topic can't seem to understand or appreciate - feel - is that the Israelis are trying to take complete control of what used to be the Palestinian's homeland, and the Palestinians are trying to get that land back, or at least hold on to what they have left. 

That's my bottom line on this AseanNow Topic and every Topic related to this awful war. 

 

How do you mean 'if what you say is true'? It's what Hamas says.

 

What you don't seem to get is that your 'opinion' about Israelis 'trying to take complete control of what used to be the Palestinians' homeland' is not an accurate description of reality. It's just your low-information 'opinion', which you treat as fact.

[Captain Monday]

On 2/10/2024 at 1:24 PM, Morch said:

I find it interesting that in all this, there is little by way of pleas or pressure on Hamas to stop the war, care for the civilians under its rule, and so on. Not a whole lot of that from the international community, specifically from Arab countries.

 

When it suits, Hamas is a 'terrorist organization' so no expectations, no accountability demanded. Other times, it's a legit representative of the people.

• Why would you expect wasted  breath criticezing Hamas?

 

No rational person denies they are a bunch of criminal terrorists who are allowed under international law to be militarily engaged and eliminated.

 

Every country in history with few exceptions other than Iceland  is the result of wars and conquest. If any nation has a so-called right to exist it would be Israel, (within internationally recognized borders).  Many peoples had "their land" stolen. With few exceptions in the 20th century only a few new countries admitted to the UN as chartered members other than former colonies of Imperialism and breakup of Soviets. What are the others other beside East Timor? Voted for in the affirmative by Iran, Russia, China, etc, yes in a different time.

 

• And thus we hold the State of Israel to a higher standard than a gang of terrorists.

 

This is the fundamental point of my three position valid criticism. The second is the war crimes committed are  "in my name" and this is what I absolutely cannot accept.  In their legitimate self defense  Israel cannot, even against terrorists and pirates and criminals commit war crimes, pursue genocidal policies, or in any other way act outside the limitations of the treaties and charters thhey as a state are subscribed and legally bound to under international law, and international humanitarian law.

 

Any child of five years knows instinctively that two wrongs do not make a right.

[bannork]

Grim reading. 

"Israel-Gaza war: Death and Israel’s search for ‘total victory’ - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68255843

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:22 PM, simple1 said:

Netanyahu has now demanded Gazans evacuate Rafah, for an IDF assault, with a current population estimated  at 1.2 million plus; where on earth are they going to go? 

He knows they have nowhere to go, but he'll be able to say "I told them to leave but they refused, so it's their own fault they got killed when our brave soldiers had to protect themselves from unarmed people and children".

[liddelljohn]

if you want a lasting peace , one side has to lose totally . like in WW2 when Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan suffered total defeat .

any fudges or bleeding heart diplomacy will only let the cancer spread ,, War must have a result ,a winner  and a loser  no draws ...or both sides  wipe themslves out  .. that  another win win for humanity ,,

[placeholder]

This is so unfair

"The White House has said on multiple occasions in recent days that it does not support Mr. Netanyahu’s likely invasion of Rafah, which sits on the border with Egypt. More than half of Gaza’s 2.2 million people are now sheltering in the city, many of them displaced after the Israeli military told them to flee south to avoid the war in the north.

Mr. Biden on Sunday “reaffirmed his view that a military operation in Rafah should not proceed without a credible and executable plan for ensuring the safety of and support for the more than one million people sheltering there,” according to the White House."

https://archive.ph/RUuPd

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/11/us/politics/biden-netanyahu-israel.html

What's worse, in the wake of this criticism and that from other quarters, it looks like Israel is knuckling under to the bullying and is working on such a plan. Don't these critics understand that even if Israel were to go ahead and attack Rafah without a credible and executable plan in place, it wouldn't be Israel's fault? That even if thousands of civilians were to die as a result, no culpability would accrue to Israel? As many members of aseannow.com have steadfastly insisted while the civilian death toll mounted elsewhere, It would be Hamas' fault for not surrendering.  Why isn't these members' clear moral vision not acceptable to all right thinking people everywhere? So sad.

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

9 hours ago, bannork said:

Grim reading. 

"Israel-Gaza war: Death and Israel’s search for ‘total victory’ - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68255843

 

 

It will always be grim reading if you choose to read antisemites like Jeremy Bowen, Jon Donnison, and Lyse Doucet, from the institutional antisemitic BBC 

 

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

 

News just breaking that the IDF have rescued 2 hostages from Rafah.

[Morch]

15 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

• Why would you expect wasted  breath criticezing Hamas?

 

No rational person denies they are a bunch of criminal terrorists who are allowed under international law to be militarily engaged and eliminated.

 

Every country in history with few exceptions other than Iceland  is the result of wars and conquest. If any nation has a so-called right to exist it would be Israel, (within internationally recognized borders).  Many peoples had "their land" stolen. With few exceptions in the 20th century only a few new countries admitted to the UN as chartered members other than former colonies of Imperialism and breakup of Soviets. What are the others other beside East Timor? Voted for in the affirmative by Iran, Russia, China, etc, yes in a different time.

 

• And thus we hold the State of Israel to a higher standard than a gang of terrorists.

 

This is the fundamental point of my three position valid criticism. The second is the war crimes committed are  "in my name" and this is what I absolutely cannot accept.  In their legitimate self defense  Israel cannot, even against terrorists and pirates and criminals commit war crimes, pursue genocidal policies, or in any other way act outside the limitations of the treaties and charters thhey as a state are subscribed and legally bound to under international law, and international humanitarian law.

 

Any child of five years knows instinctively that two wrongs do not make a right.

 

Reading these topics, there are certainly some on here which justify Hamas's actions, normalize them, see them as 'freedom fighters'. Looking out into the world outside this forum, quite a lot of that as well. So when you say, 'no rational person' - what does that even mean in this context?

 

Spin it as you like - Hamas is (was?) the de-facto ruler of the Gaza Strip. When it suits, people treat Hamas rule as 'inevitable', or as being a representation of the people's will. When it doesn't - they are a terrorist group that can't be expected to be accountable for its actions. Wanting to have it both ways is cool.

 

People go on and on about 'war crimes', somehow imagining that saying 'war crimes' make them a fact. Well, 'war crimes' are something that is decided through a rather lengthy legal process, and them rules allow a whole lot of things in reality. Some of you don't seem to grasp that.

 

As for two wrongs don't make a right - that's a laugh. A whole lot of the arguments against Israel/pro-Hamas/Palestinians here are that Israel's wrongs made Hamas's attack legit, expected, justified and so on. Again, trying to have it both ways is cool.

 

Notice, also, that I'm not so much defending Israel's actions, as protesting the lack of balance when treating things.

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

He knows they have nowhere to go, but he'll be able to say "I told them to leave but they refused, so it's their own fault they got killed when our brave soldiers had to protect themselves from unarmed people and children".

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

On all previous instances in this war, civilians were not simply told to go away, but referred to specific destinations.

As for you making up bogus stuff about what leaders may say - pffft.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

News just breaking that the IDF have rescued 2 hostages from Rafah.

Fantastic news, thanks!

 

Two hostages have been rescued from Gaza, Israel says
The Israeli military says it has rescued two hostages from captivity in the Gaza Strip.

It identified the men as Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70.

A joint operation by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), Shin Bet security service and the Special Police Unit in Rafah freed the two men, the Israeli military said.

"It was a very complex operation," Israeli military spokesman Lt Col Richard Hecht said.

"We’ve been working a long time on this operation. We were waiting for the right conditions."

https://news.sky.com/story/middle-east-latest-two-hostages-rescued-from-gaza-says-israel-violent-strikes-launched-on-rafah-reports-12978800?postid=7216051#liveblog-body

[Eloquent pilgrim]

38 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Fantastic news, thanks!

 

Two hostages have been rescued from Gaza, Israel says
The Israeli military says it has rescued two hostages from captivity in the Gaza Strip.

It identified the men as Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70.

A joint operation by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), Shin Bet security service and the Special Police Unit in Rafah freed the two men, the Israeli military said.

"It was a very complex operation," Israeli military spokesman Lt Col Richard Hecht said.

"We’ve been working a long time on this operation. We were waiting for the right conditions."

https://news.sky.com/story/middle-east-latest-two-hostages-rescued-from-gaza-says-israel-violent-strikes-launched-on-rafah-reports-12978800?postid=7216051#liveblog-body

 

Indeed, and the rescue of these hostages explains exactly why Israel felt it had to go into Rafah.

 

The BBC, true to their disgraceful bias, are running this development with the headline “Israel says two hostages rescued in Rafah as strikes reported” ….. but accompanying it with a stock photo of two injured (allegedly) Palestinian children.