Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The article she referred to was quoting John Spencer who is not an actor, an economist or even a politician but a real life urban warfare expert who knows far more than those and us. Here's some of his professional opinions on the war against Hamas.

 

Hospitals Are Protected Under International Law. But They Cannot be 'Off Limits' | Opinion

That is also why international law specifically requires that hospitals not be used to shield military objectives from attack, for example, if a hospital is used for "interference, direct or indirect, in military operations, such as the use of a hospital as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition store, as a military observation post, or as a center for liaison with combat forces," per the U.S. Department of Defense law of war manual. Such uses can lead to a hospital losing its protected status.

Because of all the special protections surrounding hospitals, they have alarmingly and increasingly been used for military purposes by combatants such as Al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), and especially Hamas, who historically do not follow the laws of war and intentionally shield themselves behind protected objects and groups.

https://www.newsweek.com/hospitals-are-protected-under-international-law-they-cannot-off-limits-opinion-1871757

 

I Have Delivered Aid in War Zones. They Were the Missions We Feared Most | Opinion

Soldiers always have the right of self-defense. That must never be taken from them. In urban areas, especially those still active war zones, the threats are everywhere. In the case of Gaza where heavy fighting continues, threats can be snipers, rocket propelled grenades. We know Hamas dressed in civilian clothes have been walking up to armored vehicles to place magnet bombs and fire into the crowd during aid distribution. Much of combat is about seeking control, and one of the reasons delivering aid in a combat zone is so hectic is because of how control can be lost in a millisecond.

https://www.newsweek.com/i-have-delivered-aid-war-zones-they-were-missions-we-feared-most-opinion-1876536

 

Israel Implemented More Measures to Prevent Civilian Casualties Than Any Other Nation in History | Opinion

No military fighting an entrenched enemy in dense urban terrain in an area barely twice the size of Washington D.C. can avoid all civilian casualties. Reports of over 25,000 Palestinians killed, be they civilians or Hamas, have made headlines. But Israel has taken more measures to avoid needless civilian harm than virtually any other nation that's fought an urban war.

In fact, as someone who has served two tours in Iraq and studied urban warfare for over a decade, Israel has taken precautionary measures even the United States did not do during its recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613

 

Memo to the 'Experts': Stop Comparing Israel's War in Gaza to Anything. It Has No Precedent | Opinion

Yet while the use of historical analogy may be tempting for armchair pundits, in the case of Israel's current war, the comparisons are often poorly cited, the data used inaccurate, and crucial context left out. Given the scale and context of an enemy purposely entrenched in densely populated urban areas, as well as the presence of tunnels, hostages, rockets, attackers that follow the laws of war while defenders purposely do not, and proximity between the frontlines and the home front, there is basically no historical comparison for this war.

Hamas' strategy is to use Palestinian civilians as human shields, because their goal is not to defeat Israel's military or to hold terrain; it is far more sinister and medieval—to use the death and suffering of Palestinian civilians to rally international support to their cause and demand that Israel halt their war.

https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891

 

 

International law requires resolution by litigation, not military action. The only roadblock here is that Israel is one of several bad faith players who refuse to recognize the ICC. Spencer is just a warmonger.

 

meanwhile:

 

According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, at least 95 journalists and media workers have been killed since the Israel-Hamas war began on Oct. 7, including two Israeli journalists, three Lebanese journalists, and 90 Palestinian journalists.

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/national-press-club-statement-on-the-ongoing-targeting-of-journalists-for-their-coverage-of-the-israel-hamas-war-302093375.html

[ozimoron]

Attacks, arrests, threats, censorship: The high risks of reporting the Israel-Gaza war

 

https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-the-high-risks-of-reporting-the-israel-hamas-war/

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

You have been gaslighted, nothing you say anymore makes sense. Hamas started this, they kidnapped babies but it fails to resonate in some posters heads. They are in Gaza to secure the release of the hostages and to find the culprits that committed these atrocious crimes. Wake up and stop believing terrorists! 

 

 

  It runs a bit deeper than simply believing the terrorists 

There is the line of thought that Jews control the World , enslave non Jews , are responsible for all wars and that the World will be free once Jews no longer exist and the Palestinians are freeing the World from Jewish control .

   That ideology needs to be addressed, rather than simply believing what hammas say 

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  It runs a bit deeper than simply believing the terrorists 

There is the line of thought that Jews control the World , enslave non Jews , are responsible for all wars and that the World will be free once Jews no longer exist and the Palestinians are freeing the World from Jewish control .

   That ideology needs to be addressed, rather than simply believing what hammas say 

 

Of course no link to these patently outrageous claims which aren't even about the war. .

[ozimoron]

More journalists killed in three months of Gaza war than in all of World War II or Vietnam War.

Al Jazeera journalist Hamza Dahdouh and fellow journalist Mustafa Thuraya were killed in an Israeli air strike on Dahdouh’s car on Sunday.

 

The Palestinian Journalists Syndicate has documented the killing of 102 journalists and the injury of 71 others by Israeli forces since hostilities began in October.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/inside-story/2024/1/8/what-international-solidarity-exists-with-journalists-under-israeli-attack

[Bkk Brian]

20 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

International law requires resolution by litigation, not military action. The only roadblock here is that Israel is one of several bad faith players who refuse to recognize the ICC. Spencer is just a warmonger.

 

meanwhile:

 

According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, at least 95 journalists and media workers have been killed since the Israel-Hamas war began on Oct. 7, including two Israeli journalists, three Lebanese journalists, and 90 Palestinian journalists.

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/national-press-club-statement-on-the-ongoing-targeting-of-journalists-for-their-coverage-of-the-israel-hamas-war-302093375.html

No,he's an expert actually. 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

No,he's an expert actually. 

 

expert propagandist and warmonger.

[WDSmart]

13 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    You claim that I  am Anti Palestinian , in the same way that you are Anti Israeli .

I do not have ab agenda against all Palestinians World wide , I do not attack supporters of Palestine , I don't boycott Palestinian made goods  , I do not attack pro Palestinian politicians .

    I just want the Palestinians in Israel to live peacefully side by side with Jews .

Although I support Zionism and Israel, I am not anti Palestinian .

Many of the pro Palestinian group are anti sematic Jew haters , who just use the Palestinian cause to further their anti Semitic opinion .

    Your hatred of Israel is not the same as my disagreeing with Palestinians violence 

You are mixing up terms in your statement above. I will respond using what I consider valid terms:

I am not anti-Isreali. I am anti-Jews-who-want-to-control-all-of-the-land-and-drive-out-or-subdue-the-Palestinians (I can't use the term I used to use anymore).
I also want the Palestinians and Jews to live side-by-side in a one-state solution. If that is not possible (which seems so), I would support a two-state solution.
I cannot use the term you use above anymore, but, to repeat myself, I am not anti-Isreali. I am anti-Jews-who-want-to-control-all-of-the-land-and-drive-out-or-subdue-the-Palestinians.

Many of the pro-Israeli groups are anti-Arab Palestinian haters who just use the Israeli cause to further their anti-Palestinian opinion .
I do not hate Israel. I hate Jews-who-want-to-control-all-of-the-land-and-drive-out-or-subdue-the-Palestinians, and I do disagree with BOTH Palestinian and Israeli violence.

[Nick Carter icp]

30 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   

Many of the pro Palestinian group are anti sematic Jew haters , who just use the Palestinian cause to further their anti Semitic opinion .

    

 

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

 

Many of the pro-Israeli groups are anti-Arab Palestinian haters who just use the Israeli cause to further their anti-Palestinian opinion .
 

 

  You have taken my words and just changed the  words Israel/Palestinian  around

[WDSmart]

15 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  It runs a bit deeper than simply believing the terrorists 

There is the line of thought that Jews control the World , enslave non Jews , are responsible for all wars and that the World will be free once Jews no longer exist and the Palestinians are freeing the World from Jewish control .

   That ideology needs to be addressed, rather than simply believing what hammas say 

I've never heard of such a thing! I have heard that before WWII, the Nazis were worried that the Jews were trying to gain economic control over Germany, and that was part of their justification for their treatment of the German Jews. But I certainly haven't heard of anything today like you describe above. As I have said, I think the basis of the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis right now is a struggle to control the land. Other Arab states are sympathetic to the Palestinians, and this "war" may indeed widen if it continues.

[Bkk Brian]

19 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

expert propagandist and warmonger.

Nope, you can stamp you feet up and down as much as you want, that still does not make him what you'd prefer him to be 😔

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 

  You have taken my words and just changed the  words Israel/Palestinian  around

Yes! I did exactly that to show how our beliefs are opposite.

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, WDSmart said:

I've never heard of such a thing! I have heard that before WWII, the Nazis were worried that the Jews were trying to gain economic control over Germany, and that was part of their justification for their treatment of the German Jews. But I certainly haven't heard of anything today like you describe above. As I have said, I think the basis of the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis right now is a struggle to control the land. Other Arab states are sympathetic to the Palestinians, and this "war" may indeed widen if it continues.

 

   I am amazed you are haven't heard about anti Semitic ideology . you seem to have a similar viewpoint .

   Other Arabs states are not really interested into going to war in the name of the Palestinian cause and your hope that the conflict may develop into a Arab/Israeli war is desperation, desperately looking for a way that Israel loses 

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes! I did exactly that to show how our beliefs are opposite.

 

   Well thanks for that , and there was me thinking that we both had the same opinion and beliefs .

Now I know, thanks for pointing that out 

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Well thanks for that , and there was me thinking that we both had the same opinion and beliefs .

Now I know, thanks for pointing that out 

I think we have only one opinion that is the same: the wish for a peaceful one-state solution.

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I think we have only one opinion that is the same: the wish for a peaceful one-state solution.

 

  That can happened once Gazans have been moved off the land and Jews are in the majority .

Then we can have our one state Jewish majority land of Israel

That is the solution  

[WDSmart]

15 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  That can happened once Gazans have been moved off the land and Jews are in the majority .

Then we can have our one state Jewish majority land of Israel

That is the solution  

Yes, that is the solution desired by the Israelis-who-want-to-control-all-of-the-land-and-drive-out-or-subdue-the-Palestinians, but not by, I hope, the rest of the world. I am now in favor of a two-state solution.

[Nick Carter icp]

22 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, that is the solution desired by the Israelis-who-want-to-control-all-of-the-land-and-drive-out-or-subdue-the-Palestinians, but not by, I hope, the rest of the world. I am now in favor of a two-state solution.

 

   So you are in favour of a one state solution as long as there a Palestinian majority , or  two state solution from where the Palestinians can attack Israel and try to get a one state solution with Palestinians being the majority .

  So, back to the "from the river to the sea", and no existence of Israel 

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   So you are in favour of a one state solution as long as there a Palestinian majority , or  two state solution from where the Palestinians can attack Israel and try to get a one state solution with Palestinians being the majority .

  So, back to the "from the river to the sea", and no existence of Israel 

 

The settler movement are in favour of the river to the sea. Or the nile to the euphrates. Do you support that?

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   So you are in favour of a one state solution as long as there a Palestinian majority , or  two state solution from where the Palestinians can attack Israel and try to get a one state solution with Palestinians being the majority .

  So, back to the "from the river to the sea", and no existence of Israel 

No, my first choice would be a one-state solution where all citizens, Palestinian/Arab/Muslim and Israelis/Jews/Jew, would live together in peace as equals. But, as I said above, that just doesn't seem like it could happen.

 

So, my second choice would be a two-state solution where each group has its own designated land (as was done by the UN in 1948).

 

My last choice (in fact, it's not even a "choice" but a "nightmare") would be a one-state solution in which either side is dominant and either eliminates or subjugates the other side.

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The settler movement are in favour of the river to the sea. Or the nile to the euphrates. Do you support that?

No, I support neither of those versions of a one-state solution.

Edited March 20 by WDSmart

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

No, I support neither of those one-state solutions.

 

Is your name NIck today? 🙂

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Is your name NIck today? 🙂

No, sorry. I was responding to several posts and got carried away. 

[coolcarer]

13 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

I am. I have condemned Hamas. But that was 5 months ago now. When was the last Israeli strike killing civilians? Oh that's right, it was today. And every day.

 

Please give me a quick recap. Which actions of Israel have you "condemned"?

 

They may not have all voted for her but she is their leader and therefore does speak for all of them.

When was the last time Hamas we’re holding hostage, oh today and everyday. No hostages no more war.

[coolcarer]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

More journalists killed in three months of Gaza war than in all of World War II or Vietnam War.

Al Jazeera journalist Hamza Dahdouh and fellow journalist Mustafa Thuraya were killed in an Israeli air strike on Dahdouh’s car on Sunday.

 

The Palestinian Journalists Syndicate has documented the killing of 102 journalists and the injury of 71 others by Israeli forces since hostilities began in October.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/inside-story/2024/1/8/what-international-solidarity-exists-with-journalists-under-israeli-attack

I wonder how many terrorists among them.

 

More than half of the Palestinian journalists killed in the Gaza Strip during Operation Iron Swords were affiliated with terrorist organizations

The government media office of Hamas in the Gaza Strip reported that as of February 18, 2024, 131 Palestinian journalists had been killed in the Gaza Strip since the beginning of the war (October 7, 2023). The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center’s comprehensive examination of the 131 names revealed that approximately 60% were operatives in or affiliated with the terrorist organizations, Fatah or the Palestinian Authority.

https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/more-than-half-of-the-palestinian-journalists-killed-in-the-gaza-strip-during-operation-iron-swords-were-affiliated-with-terrorist-organizations/

[WDSmart]

16 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

When was the last time Hamas we’re holding hostage, oh today and everyday. No hostages no more war.

If that were true, I'd definitely advise Hamas to release/exchange all hostages/prisoners. BUT..., I don't think that would end this conflict. I think after all the hostages were released, Israel would just continue attacking Gaza, killing Palestinians, and maybe then in the West Bank also.

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

If that were true, I'd definitely advise Hamas to release/exchange all hostages/prisoners. BUT..., I don't think that would end this conflict. I think after all the hostages were released, Israel would just continue attacking Gaza, killing Palestinians, and maybe then in the West Bank also.

It's no secret. Israel's war goals in response to the barbaric attack on October 7 include both getting the hostages back AND crushing Hamas. Both goals are very difficult. 

Edited March 20 by Jingthing

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

What could the Israelis do when Hamas terrorists hide behind civilians and in hospitals? Relax and let them plan the next massacre?

They do what others did and would do in the same situation.

 

Remember "Operation Vigilant Resolve" and "Operation Phantom Fury" in 2004, when the US bombed the city of Faludscha? They used Phosphor bombs, uranium ammunition and cluster bombs.

 

By the way: Where are the arab brothers? Egypt could easily open their border for civilians? 

Why should Egypt take them? They are not Egyptian. You seem to equate being Arab to being able to be a citizen in any Arab country which is a nonsense. Palestinians have their own land, and if the israelis just do the right thing and get off it, there might be a chance for peace.

Could you just go and live in another western country as a citizen?

 

It is the israelis that are the illegal immigrants in the West Bank, not the Palestinians. I repeat, israelis are illegal immigrants in Palestine, not the Palestinians that own the land that israelis are stealing.

 

Just because America used phosphor bombs is no justification for israel doing the same. Even America didn't illegally occupy Iraq for 30 years.

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why should Egypt take them? They are not Egyptian. You seem to equate being Arab to being able to be a citizen in any Arab country which is a nonsense. Palestinians have their own land, and if the israelis just do the right thing and get off it, there might be a chance for peace.

Could you just go and live in another western country as a citizen?

 

It is the israelis that are the illegal immigrants in the West Bank, not the Palestinians. I repeat, israelis are illegal immigrants in Palestine, not the Palestinians that own the land that israelis are stealing.

 

Just because America used phosphor bombs is no justification for israel doing the same. Even America didn't illegally occupy Iraq for 30 years.

Another one that eschews the complexity of real life.

Are Palestinian Arabs really different than Jordanian Arabs?

You ignore the fact that there was mass migration to British Mandate Palestine to take advantage of economic opportunities from the pan Arabic world related to Zionist pioneers.

This fetishism over specific Palestinian Arab identity is an artificial construct. 

Anyway I agree with you that the west bank settlements are illegal. 

Edited March 20 by Jingthing

[Nick Carter icp]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why should Egypt take them? They are not Egyptian. You seem to equate being Arab to being able to be a citizen in any Arab country which is a nonsense. Palestinians have their own land, and if the israelis just do the right thing and get off it, there might be a chance for peace.

Could you just go and live in another western country as a citizen?

 

It is the israelis that are the illegal immigrants in the West Bank, not the Palestinians. I repeat, israelis are illegal immigrants in Palestine, not the Palestinians that own the land that israelis are stealing.

 

Just because America used phosphor bombs is no justification for israel doing the same. Even America didn't illegally occupy Iraq for 30 years.

 

   Where should the Israelis go ?

Maybe Caucasian New Zealanders and Israelis could both get off other peoples land and go and live together somewhere in some new country  ?