Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

War crimes can only be committed by established state entities - Hamas are not that, so cannot per se commit "war crimes".

Hamas is a terrorist organization. 

[beautifulthailand99]

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

 I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

War crimes can only be committed by established state entities - Hamas are not that, so cannot per se commit "war crimes".

Not correct, war crimes can be committed by individuals including leaders

 

Families of Israeli hostages file war crimes complaint against Hamas in The Hague

Families of Israeli hostages held by Hamas have taken a significant step in their pursuit of justice by filing a war crimes complaint against the terror organization at the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague. This bold move, led by the Hostages and Missing Families Forum, marks a pivotal moment in the ongoing struggle to hold Hamas accountable for its brutal actions.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1319916-families-of-israeli-hostages-file-war-crimes-complaint-against-hamas-in-the-hague

 

The ICC can only investigate and prosecute “natural persons” who are over the age of 18. The ICC cannot investigate or prosecute governments, corporations, political parties, or rebel movements, but may investigate individuals who are members of groups.

ICC link source

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Not correct, war crimes can be committed by individuals including leaders

 

Families of Israeli hostages file war crimes complaint against Hamas in The Hague

Families of Israeli hostages held by Hamas have taken a significant step in their pursuit of justice by filing a war crimes complaint against the terror organization at the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague. This bold move, led by the Hostages and Missing Families Forum, marks a pivotal moment in the ongoing struggle to hold Hamas accountable for its brutal actions.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1319916-families-of-israeli-hostages-file-war-crimes-complaint-against-hamas-in-the-hague

 

The ICC can only investigate and prosecute “natural persons” who are over the age of 18. The ICC cannot investigate or prosecute governments, corporations, political parties, or rebel movements, but may investigate individuals who are members of groups.

ICC link source

 

 

Thanks for the clarification - I concede that point.

[poohy]

Remember Israel live in a tough "backyard".

 

Shame its someone elses backyard

[Jeff the Chef]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Not a thought from you about the safety of Israelis.

 

If Israelis want safety, can I suggest they start by complying with UN resolutions and stop trying to dictate their will on an indigenous people who have every right to be where they are.

[WDSmart]

9 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Lets keep it to the present day , rather than alleged historical happenings from 100 years ago

 

Okay, let's keep it to the "present day." 

In that case, Israel has no justification for what it's doing right now or threatening to do in Gaza. Hamas has done nothing to provoke that today. 

[WDSmart]

9 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

9 hours ago, Hummin said:

Seriously? 

 

With people with attitude like you, there is no wonder why there is conflicts in the world.

 

  So it was me that caused this war and not Hamas ?

Yes. It was certainly people like you who think Israel can do nothing wrong, is the God-given owners of the land in question, and that Palestinian Arabs are like vermin that have to be eliminated. That is indeed the cause of this at least 85-year-long conflict.

[thaibeachlovers]

55 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

If Israelis want safety, can I suggest they start by complying with UN resolutions and stop trying to dictate their will on an indigenous people who have every right to be where they are.

Let's not forget that Jews and Arabs lived together peacefully before 1948 when zionists decided to try and ethnically cleanse Palestine to create their own homeland ( it's all documented and well known ). If they are having a spot of bother with the neighbours they should look at their own behaviour and stop being a bully.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes. It was certainly people like you who think Israel can do nothing wrong, is the God-given owners of the land in question, and that Palestinian Arabs are like vermin that have to be eliminated. That is indeed the cause of this at least 85-year-long conflict.

I never thought I'd see you being so forthright about the situation, but well said.

It takes many years of indoctrination to convince a population that the neighbours are vermin to be exterminated, but IMO the israelis are of that mind, given their overwhelming support for what is happening in Gaza, and the behaviour of the IDF troops. Good soldiers don't shoot unarmed starving people trying to get some food.

We know what happened to the last lot ( the Hutus in Rwanda ) that tried to do that- it didn't end well for them, did it!

[Bkk Brian]

53 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Okay, let's keep it to the "present day." 

In that case, Israel has no justification for what it's doing right now or threatening to do in Gaza. Hamas has done nothing to provoke that today. 

You keep forgetting why this is still ongoing. The hostages that Hamas has this "present day"

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

You keep forgetting why this is still ongoing. The hostages that Hamas has this "present day"

Israel can secure the return of the hostages anytime they want. They just need to negotiate a ceasefire, "permanent" I think is now what Hamas is demanding, and probably some other things, and then the hostages will be returned. What I think we'll find out, however, is that there are not 130+ live hostages, but some number less than that. And that might be a lot less than that. 😞 But that number will do nothing but go down the longer Israel and Hamas do not reach an agreement. 

[Nick Carter icp]

58 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes. It was certainly people like you who think Israel can do nothing wrong, is the God-given owners of the land in question, and that Palestinian Arabs are like vermin that have to be eliminated. That is indeed the cause of this at least 85-year-long conflict.

 

   Well Smart , I don't think that Israel can do no wrong , I don't think that God gave the land to Israelis and I don't think that Palestinian Arabs are like vermin and I don't think that they need to be eliminated and we are talking about the current war .

   So as usual, you are completely wrong about everything 

[Wobblybob]

13 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Israel can secure the return of the hostages anytime they want. They just need to negotiate a ceasefire, "permanent" I think is now what Hamas is demanding, and probably some other things, and then the hostages will be returned. What I think we'll find out, however, is that there are not 130+ live hostages, but some number less than that. And that might be a lot less than that. 😞 But that number will do nothing but go down the longer Israel and Hamas do not reach an agreement. 

Considering the crime that Hamas started on the 7/10 whilst many of the Palestinian people cheered with glee at the attrocities that had just been committed, I don't think that the Hamas terrorists are in a position to demand anything.

But it is easy to spot an antisemite, they demand a ceasefire without demanding the release of all the hostages!

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Let's not forget that Jews and Arabs lived together peacefully before 1948 when zionists decided to try and ethnically cleanse Palestine to create their own homeland ( it's all documented and well known ). If they are having a spot of bother with the neighbours they should look at their own behaviour and stop being a bully.

 

   Not too different to how your great great grandparents treated the Maoris in New Zealand

[ozimoron]

I can't understand this obsession with denying recent history. It is nothing other than a blatant attempt to whitewash culpability.

 

My first awareness of the existence of the middle east came in 1967 then I just turned 13. For a week we got a football like summary of the number of Egyptian tanks destroyed daily on page 3 of the Murdoch local printed press. Nothing else. At that time I hit high school and learned about the history since 1948.

 

It surprised me to learn that Israel was created to house Jews from Germany who had not had any familial ties to the region for many centuries and yet no corresponding state was established for the indigenous peoples of the region. Having been booted from compulsory religious instruction the same year and being a devout atheist ever since, biblical claims to land by either side meant little to me. Creating one state and not the other was sheer inhumanity and was pursuant to a zionist view that the entire region belonged to Israel. What could possibly go wrong? Well it did go wrong and the good intentions of giving those who most deserved one after ww2 a homeland went to waste as they provided continuing evidence of an extreme and pervasive nationalism leading to inhumanity. To say that I am bewildered by this is an understatement.

 

I learned that millions of Palestinians had been displaced from their homes and they remain in refugee camps to this day. Over 5 million in fact. Then, in 1982, when I was well aware of ME affairs we saw the Shatila massacre in which thousands of refugees were killed with the active support of the IDF. I formed the opinion that both of these acts were crimes against humanity and amounted to genocide.

 

Since then we have seen sporadic terrorist attacks by Hamas and subsequent collection retribution by Israel like the illegal settlements and the burning of terrorists' family homes. All crimes against humanity. Including the terrorist attacks.

 

Other than that, the single issue which has infuriated me over the years has been the deliberate shooting of Palestinian teenagers in the head with live ammunition for throwing stones fireworks and petrol bombs. I can say that it's rational  for any father of one of those kids to vow on his son's grave that anyone who facilitated or supported his son's death should never stop looking over their shoulder. Do I concur with that reaction? No. But to deny it isn't rational is disingenuous.

 

Now we have the carpet bombing of densely occupied cilviian areas with the worst possible bombs imaginable after nuclear weapons resulting in 20,000 civilian deaths and destruction of most of the homes and infrastructure in Gaza. Clearly war crimes. My abhorrence meter flicked to maximum.

 

I really hope I live to see the day justice is done for both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

[WDSmart]

8 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Well Smart , I don't think that Israel can do no wrong , I don't think that God gave the land to Israelis and I don't think that Palestinian Arabs are like vermin and I don't think that they need to be eliminated and we are talking about the current war .

   So as usual, you are completely wrong about everything 

Why, then, do you always blame the Palestinians for everything and never the Israelis? Why, then, do you think Israel is entitled to own and control all the land in question. Why, then, do you support the IDF's bombing and proposed invasion of Gaza? What reason do you have for all of that other than the ones I proposed? 

 

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Israel can secure the return of the hostages anytime they want. They just need to negotiate a ceasefire, "permanent" I think is now what Hamas is demanding, and probably some other things, and then the hostages will be returned. What I think we'll find out, however, is that there are not 130+ live hostages, but some number less than that. And that might be a lot less than that. 😞 But that number will do nothing but go down the longer Israel and Hamas do not reach an agreement. 

In other words Israel can surrender and say Hamas has won? Because that is what Hamas is asking for. A full ceasefire and withdrawal of all troops before any hostages have been released. 

[Nick Carter icp]

19 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Israel can secure the return of the hostages anytime they want. They just need to negotiate a ceasefire, "permanent" I think is now what Hamas is demanding, 

 

   Is that just what you think that Hamas want , what you think they probably want ?

But you don't actually know what Hamas are demanding , its just what you think .

You just made it up 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

In other words Israel can surrender and say Hamas has won? Because that is what Hamas is asking for. A full ceasefire and withdrawal of all troops before any hostages have been released. 

 

A full and permanent withdrawal of troops, return of all of the prisoners as demanded before any hostages are released would seem reasonable to my mind. That action would obviously result in no further deaths from this conflict. No other conditions would in the longer term. Further terrorist attacks are inevitble now, no matter how this ends. Assertions that Palestinians could or should turn against Hamas at this time are Zionist propaganda, not realpolitik.

 

 

[WDSmart]

5 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Considering the crime that Hamas started on the 7/10 whilst many of the Palestinian people cheered with glee at the attrocities that had just been committed, I don't think that the Hamas terrorists are in a position to demand anything.

But it is easy to spot an antisemite, they demand a ceasefire without demanding the release of all the hostages!

Guess what? This conflict did not start on Oct 7. That is just the second-most recent atrocity that has occurred in this at least 85-year-long conflict. When will you accept that? I just don't understand your inability or unwillingness to acknowledge the history behind this conflict.

It's not easy to spot an antisemite. Many are very good at concealing their hatred of some of the Semite people. 

I have never demanded a ceasefire without also recommending a reciprocal release of hostages. Many of "you" do demand a return of hostages without a ceasefire. But now that you mention it, I believe if Israel did implement a ceasefire, Hamas would return hostages. And if that ceasefire was promised (with assurances of a 3rd party) to be permanent, I believe Hamas would gladly release all of the hostages. 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

Why, then, do you always blame the Palestinians for everything and never the Israelis? Why, then, do you think Israel is entitled to own and control all the land in question. Why, then, do you support the IDF's bombing and proposed invasion of Gaza? What reason do you have for all of that other than the ones I proposed? 

 

 

  Palestinians are the cause of this war , they attacked Israel on Oct 7 th

That is an undeniable fact .

I don't blame Israel for participated in a war started by Palestinians .

Due to the security threat to Israel , terrorists need to be removed from Gaza .

Palestinians need to stop attacking Israel and it seems that the only way to do that is to remove them from the land 

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

A full and permanent withdrawal of troops, return of all of the prisoners as demanded before any hostages are released would seem reasonable to my mind. That action would obviously result in no further deaths from this conflict. No other conditions would in the longer term. Further terrorist attacks are inevitble now, no matter how this ends. Assertions that Palestinians could or should turn against Hamas at this time are Zionist propaganda, not realpolitik.

 

 

Delusional

[WDSmart]

13 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Not too different to how your great great grandparents treated the Maoris in New Zealand

Yes! Or how my forefathers treated the indigenous American Indians. You seem to think that was wrong. I agree. But now you don't seem to think what Israel is doing is wrong. Why is that? 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Delusional

 

wow, deep, man..

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Guess what? This conflict did not start on Oct 7. That is just the second-most recent atrocity that has occurred in this at least 85-year-long conflict.

 

  Honestly ,  really .

Are you saying that there has been conflict between Israel and Arabs in the past ?

Well I never , learn something new everyday

How did you find out about this .

Thanks for bringing that info to the table 

 

   *Sarcasm*

 

[WDSmart]

13 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

In other words Israel can surrender and say Hamas has won? Because that is what Hamas is asking for. A full ceasefire and withdrawal of all troops before any hostages have been released. 

Yes, if they want the hostages back. But, they don't have to say "Hamas has won." They have already bombed and killed 10s of thousands of Palestinians. I don't think Hamas would call that "winning." I do think BOTH sides could "win" if they sat down and worked out a two-state solution. But, that's  probably wishing for way too much, especially right now. 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Honestly ,  really .

Are you saying that there has been conflict between Israel and Arabs in the past ?

Well I never , learn something new everyday

How did you find out about this .

Thanks for bringing that info to the table 

 

   *Sarcasm*

 

 

His point is the abject denial that this recent history was consequential to current events.

[Bkk Brian]

Even Qatar has threatened to expel the Hamas terrorist officials from their base in Doha should they fail to persuade the group’s Gaza-based leaders to agree to a deal. 

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes! Or how my forefathers treated the indigenous American Indians. You seem to think that was wrong. I agree. But now you don't seem to think what Israel is doing is wrong. Why is that? 

 

   There's an American , an Australian and a New Zealander all shouting  from the roof tops about White people settling on non White peoples land and how they should give the land back  to the natives .

   Is there something Freudian going on here ?

Some psychological reason for their shouting about Israel ?