Frozen pension policy turns British expat's dream into a nightmare

[Martin Brit]

15 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Wow ok 24yrs ago.

 

Sounds like piss poor planning from those whinging about it now !

Exactly, you might say they cannot afford to live in Thailand. I have friends in England who were Billy big <deleted> when we were younger, earning loads & spending loads. Never saved to pension. They still work into their old age because the state pension isn't enough & they have no other income. Remember cash is king, its not, put it into pension & reduce your tax bill whilst saving for a guaranteed income for life. Cash reduces in value by half every 10 yrs.

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, Bobydog said:

Australian pension policy is simple in that if you do not own a residence in Australia and don't live in Aus but reside in Thailand,  then your Australian pension will be taxed at 35% as un earned income. That totally killed my aspirations. 

Yes, but only if you tell AU that you’re no longer a resident. Not many do, if any. 
 

 

Edited April 27 by Nemises

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, Martin Brit said:

Exactly, you might say they cannot afford to live in Thailand. I have friends in England who were Billy big <deleted> when we were younger, earning loads & spending loads. Never saved to pension. They still work into their old age because the state pension isn't enough & they have no other income. Remember cash is king, its not, put it into pension & reduce your tax bill whilst saving for a guaranteed income for life. Cash reduces in value by half every 10 yrs.

But you can sneak your cash away when being divorced, while you will lose 50% of your pension.

[sabai-dee-man]

2 hours ago, itsari said:

What do you think is the consequence of defrauding the Bitish Government going to be ?Send you some roses perhaps?

I have read that the consequences are that retirement payments will cease. 

 

Congratulations for slipping that one in without being pestered for a link! Oops! Sorry, that's done it... 🙄🤣🤣 

[Al BB]

12 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Not at all, I am trying to research this injustice and reading 'he said she said' doesn't help in anyway, it would be nice to get hard facts instead of the usual negativity. I am not prepared to lie down without at first trying to find a solution to this and doing as much I can to resolve this ridiculous situation for myself at least, if other people wish to walk down the corridors of "we're all doomed" that is entirely up to them! 

Bob, here is a FACT for you. The National Insurance Fund Investment Account (NIFIA) has (as at Feb this year) 87.65 Billion GBP in its coffers. The Estimated Cost to give us 500,000 Pensioners PARITY is aound  870 Million GBP.

[superal]

14 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

I think that is a possible answer to those willing to think outside the box. I did an internet search and it's possible to open a Philippine bank account on line without even going to the Philippines. Surely finding a Philippine address can't be that difficult. 

I know it is possible to buy postal addresses in the UK . If in the Philippines that would be interesting . Play the UK government at their own game . They say it has been in place for 70 years , well its about time it was brought up to date . Unfair and unjust but the general UK population are not concerned as they remain in the UK .  I would like to see the UK pension minister , Mel Stride , cross examined on live TV by an informed assertive pension expert . Not only is the UK pension one of the lowest in Europe but they don't want to pay it unless you stay in the UK where the weather can have some bad effects on the pensioners health .

[newbee2022]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Leaving unions affects finances in a big way. 

Of Scotland leaves UK, the English will lose lots in oil revenue, and Scots will get better pensions, for example. 

You'll lose more the next years: Scotland will join EU. And NI will be isolated and reunited with ROI. That will be a big powerful EU block facing a diminished England/Wales. Dark clouds for England and future pensions.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, AAArdvark said:

13 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Not if you cannot provide proof of living there, you don't.

What is the reason that the Philippines is exempted?

Because it has a reciprocal social security agreement with the UK.

[shackleton]

When the last Petetion came out to increase the old age Pension for people retired overseas 

Thailand included 

I put my name to it if I remember correctly it only had about 7000 plus votes 

This was world wide 

Obviously a lot of people did not bother or were not interested in getting a increase 

It's a lost cause for the wishful thinkers 😱

[shunter]

Quote

Keeps  The basic state pension first came about in 1948. As the DWP have stated that this rule has been in effect for over 70 years, it may have been incorporated at the outset. It probably would not have been an issue for the first couple of decades as not many people would have retired overseas. Now however, wholly unfair.

Successive governments over the last 70 years have ignored all motions tabled in the UK Parliament to unfreeze this paltry parsimonious state sponsored theft from its more vulnerable  citizens. Tony Blair's government fought tooth and nail in the European Court to deny the unfreezing of this discriminatory action and won their case.Sadly, those who paid in full are denied their rights, however there seems to be a bottomless money pit for the illegals washing up on UK shores. Happily as a consolation prize my private pensions rise each year according to UK inflation figures. 

[Al BB]

1 hour ago, AAArdvark said:

Does the government offer any sort reasoning?

The GOVT can afford it! I have posted elsewhere on here, The National Insurance Fund Investment Account (NIFIA) stands at 87.65 BILLION GBP as at February this year. The (ESTIMATED ) Cost to bring us 500,000 to Parity would be 870 Million GBP.

[jaideedave]

51 minutes ago, simon43 said:

The policy of freezing pensions has nothing to do with racism or discrimination.  It's available to UK pensioners in those countries which have signed a double tax agreement with the UK, such as the Philippines.  

 

For whatever reason, Thailand (and Laos and ...) have not signed such an agreement, probably never even requested such an agreement with the UK.

 

Therefore, if you want to moan at someone, moan at the Thai government for failing to request a double tax agreement with the UK!

Is it worthwhile for a UK pensioner to relocate to the Pp to establaish the higher rate then spend 6/6 months in each country ? I suppose everyones situation is different ,married,single etc.

I've been to the Pp years ago with friends an none of us cared much for what we saw. The Yanks were just leaving Subic and Mt Pinatubo had blown its top the year before.We got ripped off at every turn and cut short our visit and returned to the LOS. That was 30 years ago so maybe it's changed.

[Limey125]

The amount of money paid to pensioners in Thailand has zero to do with asylum seekers, just an excuse to have a rant, I know of a former asylum seeker working looking after elderly people, maybe the elderly person has children that abandoned them to live overseas 

[foreverlomsak]

13 hours ago, kickstart said:

it is now going beyond they 12000 GBP personnel allowance, and they are saying they could well be having to pay tax, after paying tax they could be down more money than before the increase. 

The Personal Allowance is 12,570 GBP, and if you have to pay tax after an increase it will only be on the amount over 12,570 GBP and at a rate of 20%.

E.G. if pensions totaled 13,000 GBP the calculation would be.

13,000 less 12,570 equals 430 taxable

430 by 20% equals 86 GBP tax

so would still be 344 GBP better off, to say they would be worse off is totally incorrect, they would not be as well off as they might have been.

Don't get me wrong, as a pensioner myself, I am not condoning the taxation of pensions (either state or private, by either UK or Thailand) my personal opinion is that pensions of any category should be tax free.

[Keller54]

16 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Wow ok 24yrs ago.

 

Sounds like piss poor planning from those whinging about it now !

Well said. Totally agree 👍 

[AAArdvark]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

To be fair, bar girls and massage workers have to work very long hours and sometimes have to do unpleasant things to make money!  I would expect them to make more than a Brit on a State pension!

but they both get f'd

 

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

13 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I know what it says, how it is written and what that means, it does not state that Thailand is a Commonwealth country as I suspect you are suggesting.

 

 

"Most British Commonwealth countries are included in the frozen list;    these include countries, such as Australia, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand, Thailand and India..."

 

Expand  

 

Er, a sentence constructed in that manner unequivocally states that Thailand is a Commonwealth country.

No, it does not. It seems awkwardly worded but It does categorically state that...

"Most British Commonwealth countries are included in the frozen list;    [Semicolon]

The part after the semicolon ("...these include countries, such as Australia, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand, Thailand and India...") indicates countries that are also just on the frozen list, it is not claiming that those additional countries are Commonwealth countries.  To do that (i.e. introduce a list of countries set up by the first clause) would require a colon (:), not the semicolon (;) that was used  (using correct grammar) to join the related independent clauses together in the same sentence without the need for a conjunction. 

 

Those who are unable to understand the uses of colons vs semicolons will never understand the actual meaning of the sentence.

 

 

Edited April 27 by Liverpool Lou

[BTB1977]

Sucks to be a Brit. But why cry over something that has been around for 70 years per the article.  Guessing most knew this before moving here or found out right after. As we say in Thailand "up to you"

[Liverpool Lou]

4 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Thanks for all those links OG but they still fail to address the post I asked for verification for. I am not trying to catch anyone out but trying to piece the jigsaw together. 

 

14 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Providing DWP with copies of the Philippines in and out stamps in your passport proving that you are living there for the required number of days will be if you're not living there.

 

That is part of the requirements that were explained in the video that you posted - did you not watch it?...

 https://youtu.be/LfJcTLIMsUA

 

If you do not believe it, you can call the IPC on the number that was provided in the video and get the verification from them yourself but maybe you'd still refer to that as hearsay.

 

 

Edited April 27 by Liverpool Lou

[simple1]

57 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I assume he's talking about getting taxed as a non-resident.

 

OK. Off Topic, but may be interesting to some....

 

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s000000O2y4/p00197245

[ChrisKC]

I calculated from research last year that the increase in my British pension would be worth now just over 50% more than now, cumulative over 14 years.

 

If I add to this figure a more favorable exchange rate from the B46 now from those days - closer to B65

 

If I add the possibility of living in Philippines where I believe increase are still being paid and their exchange rate of around PHP to THB hovers around 65, my pension would be worth at least 75% more than when I first received it!

 

Given that the greatest burden of old age and equivalent demands on the NHS are zero when living abroad I am disappointed that the freezing of every increase for ever is seemingly justified by the British Government.

 

When I was paying National Insurance contributions for 40 years that were only ever increased, I feel it is only fair in my pensionable age that I receive the increases they reflect. After all, until Brexit, agreements in the EU meant that wherever an expat lived in one of those member countries, annual increases would be paid. Do they now not receive further increases?

 

Can we fight this? Of course not, we are forgotten citizens!

[Neeranam]

I wonder if a dual citizen leaves the UK on their Thai passport, will the govt know they are out the country?

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, ChrisKC said:

When I was paying National Insurance contributions for 40 years that were only ever increased, I feel it is only fair in my pensionable age that I receive the increases they reflect.

It wasn't optional, think of it as a tax. 

 

[arick]

The return on pension state pension is shocking considering the amount of national insurance that you pay towards it. Take into account if you miss one month or one week out of the 12 month stretch you cannot claim pension for that year of your work. The UK pension system is the worst in the world. At least it's the worst in the G8

[BusNo8]

17 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

 

Foreigners resident in Thailand are beginning to feel a financial strain due to the UK government's pension freeze policy. Three British individuals have experienced this challenge, providing insights about a difficult reality that contrasts sharply with the country's sunny appeal.

 

John Jones, 77, had enjoyed a lively international lifestyle but now, due to the frozen pension policy, his retirement plans are suffering. Residing in rural Thailand, Jones struggles with a heart condition adding to his financial woes.

 

Rising living costs are hitting him particularly hard. According to Jones, market items that were affordable thirteen years ago now seem overly expensive. The budget constraints hinder any saving capacities and he lives quite a simple life.

 

His fellow Briton, Jeffrey Barnes, 77, from Offham, Kent, shares a similar fate. Although receiving a comfortable private pension, the unfairness of the frozen state pension policy aggravates him.

 

Meanwhile, 55-year-old Linz Gelthorpe and his 61-year-old wife, Julie, find their dream relocation to Thailand tarnished by unforeseen financial challenges.

 

The problem lies in the UK Government’s position to freeze state pensions for its nationals living in non-European countries like Thailand. The policy precludes them from receiving the annual increment accessible to those residing in the UK. Reportedly, it affects over 480,000 globally.

 

The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), despite mounting criticism, stands by this policy, asserting that it has been in place for over 70 years. However, this isn't much consolation for the British foreigners who are still managing these financial realities.

 

 

 

Photo: Creative Common License via Google

 

-- 2024-04-26

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Another poorly written, vague article leaving more questions than answers.

[transam]

2 hours ago, delgarcon said:

Nope, guess again! I'll give you a clue, it's not in the UK😉

Aaaaah, OK.........😉

[Nemises]

30 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

OK. Off Topic, but may be interesting to some....

 

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s000000O2y4/p00197245

No tax is payable for AU OAPs living in Thailand unless you declare that you are no longer an AU resident. Not many do, if any.

 

 

Edited April 27 by Nemises

[NoshowJones]

16 hours ago, MicroB said:

 

In 1946, there was the first uplift, which wasn't paid out to pensioners outside of Great Britain. The National Insurance Act 1946  contained a general  disqualification for payment of benefits absent from Great Britain, together with power for regulations to remove the disqualification. Upratings, of which there were three between July 1948 and July 1955, were not payable to persons not resident in Great Britain. The formal policy was made in 1955. Subsequent regulations providing for pension increases have continued to have the same effect. Between 1948 and 1955, the UK entered into reciprocal agreements with France, Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Luxembourg, which provided for payment of retirement pension in the countries concerned. Upratings were paid. Pensions were also payable, by a special arrangement, in  Ireland but were not uprated until 1966. Until 1973, recipricol arrangements were made with 30 countries to allow pension increases. This stopped in 1981. In July 1995, there was a parliamentary debate on the Pension Bill amendments for upratings to be paid, defeated by large majorities.

 

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1995-05-04/debates/0f8a64d2-9e26-4fc8-813d-2504e909e8ae/Pensions(Expatriates)

 

In theory, all UK pensioners could go home, and their pensions increased to the current rate.

 

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1994-07-06/debates/6df169bc-8bd2-4d30-909b-312ad520b9d4/OverseasPensioners

 

William Hague pointed out that todays NI contributions pays for today's pensioner, not your future pension. So arguments about paying into a system for future entitlement falls fat on its face. There isn't the money to pay for overseas pensioners, who mostly don't vote, who mostly don't pay taxes, to have their pension increased.

"There isn't the money to pay for overseas pensioners". Really!! There seems to be enough to pay for all these immigrants, legal and illegal, MP's "expenses" etc,etc,etc.

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I wonder if a dual citizen leaves the UK on their Thai passport, will the govt know they are out the country?

Could you leave the UK on a Thai Passport if you didn't enter using it? 

[NoshowJones]

15 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

I think that is a possible answer to those willing to think outside the box. I did an internet search and it's possible to open a Philippine bank account on line without even going to the Philippines. Surely finding a Philippine address can't be that difficult. 

"Surely finding a Philippine address can't be that difficult."  It would need to be a real one for the DWP to send the Proof of Life forms.