Veterans victims of Gerrymandering

[Chomper Higgot]

The Government’s gerrymandering has done exactly what it was predicted to do, deny citizens their right to vote.

 

But I wonder, was it this particular group of citizens the architects of the scheme to deny citizens their vote had in mind:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/02/minister-sorry-as-veterans-find-id-card-not-valid-for-english-elections

[stoner]

i don't see much wrong with requiring photo ID to vote ? seems strange not to. in fact in canada to vote you need photo ID.

 

In Canada at times they even reject other forms of government issued photo ID as valid government ID.

An ontario drivers license is widely accepted in many areas of life here as valid photo ID. however the ontario health card issued by the same government and very similar looking is totally rejected almost everywhere as an accepted form of ID. 

 

yes i know this is about USA but i'm using canada as a reference point in regards to the same type of activity - voting. 

 

seems the new card also just came out a few months ago. as we all know government works like wildfire when updating laws through their speedy process. the new legislation came out before the new military card. 

 

also from the article...

 

“Experience from the last local elections was that 99.75% of people were able to cast their vote successfully.”

 

quite a high success rate if you ask me. 

 

also...

 

There’s already a very wide range of acceptable documents including a free voter authority certificate which is accepted at all polling stations so anyone who is eligible to vote can continue to do so.

 

pretty sure many of the minorities and disenfranchised could get one of these if needed. if this is not possible i take this part back. 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, stoner said:

i don't see much wrong with requiring photo ID to vote ? seems strange not to. in fact in canada to vote you need photo ID.

 

In Canada at times they even reject other forms of government issued photo ID as valid government ID.

An ontario drivers license is widely accepted in many areas of life here as valid photo ID. however the ontario health card issued by the same government and very similar looking is totally rejected almost everywhere as an accepted form of ID. 

 

yes i know this is about USA but i'm using canada as a reference point in regards to the same type of activity - voting. 

 

seems the new card also just came out a few months ago. as we all know government works like wildfire when updating laws through their speedy process. the new legislation came out before the new military card. 

 

also from the article...

 

“Experience from the last local elections was that 99.75% of people were able to cast their vote successfully.”

 

quite a high success rate if you ask me. 

 

also...

 

There’s already a very wide range of acceptable documents including a free voter authority certificate which is accepted at all polling stations so anyone who is eligible to vote can continue to do so.

 

pretty sure many of the minorities and disenfranchised could get one of these if needed. if this is not possible i take this part back. 

It’s UK related.

 

This makes interesting background reading:

 

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-data/electoral-fraud-data/2022-electoral-fraud-data

[stoner]

6 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s UK related.

 

This makes interesting background reading:

 

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-data/electoral-fraud-data/2022-electoral-fraud-data

 

my mistake. you usually are all about usa so i assumed. still applies though. 

[Gottfrid]

Not a problem. Simple and easy. Just have a government issued photo ID. This is the rule for voting in almost any country in the world. But of course. UK had to be different again.

[cmjl]

There's nothing wrong with photo ID,it will cut down on fraud,I have a friend who,a few years ago, was a presiding officer,he had a few tales to tell of irregularities that went on.It's also time the government cut down on the amount of postal votes as well as there are no regulations covering them-coercion/domineering comes to mind.

[HauptmannUK]

I don't think anyone was 'denied their right to vote'. Voters in the UK have to show photo ID at the polling station. There is quite a long list of acceptable forms of ID including driving licence, passport, various types of travel passes, disability badge, defence ID (MoD 90) etc.  The 'Veteran's ID' card is a new thing, introduced only a few months ago and not yet added to the list. The government have said they will update the list ASAP. Bit of a 'storm in a teacup'.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, stoner said:

 

my mistake. you usually are all about usa so i assumed. still applies though. 

Not calling you out Stoner, just a correction.

 

The US dominates the topics and found easily be mistaken as there are efforts there, also by the political right, to use ID as a means to disenfranchise citizens without any evidence of significant voter fraud.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, cmjl said:

There's nothing wrong with photo ID,it will cut down on fraud,I have a friend who,a few years ago, was a presiding officer,he had a few tales to tell of irregularities that went on.It's also time the government cut down on the amount of postal votes as well as there are no regulations covering them-coercion/domineering comes to mind.

I’ve provided a link to Government data on voting fraud, it’s near non existent.

 

What’s going on here is an effort disenfranchise citizens.

 

The Government choosing the voters rather than voters choosing the Government.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

I don't think anyone was 'denied their right to vote'. Voters in the UK have to show photo ID at the polling station. There is quite a long list of acceptable forms of ID including driving licence, passport, various types of travel passes, disability badge, defence ID (MoD 90) etc.  The 'Veteran's ID' card is a new thing, introduced only a few months ago and not yet added to the list. The government have said they will update the list ASAP. Bit of a 'storm in a teacup'.

If any citizen was turned away from a polling station without being able to vote then they were denied their vote.

The list is cooked in favor of Conservative voters.

 

So by example, an OAP bus pass is acceptable but a student or young person’s bus pass is not.

 

I’m sure the data will come in once the vote counts are over.

 

[stoner]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not calling you out Stoner, just a correction.

 

i've never argued against short term memory loss. in fact this could be used as an example. i clearly read the article. however after getting to the end then thinking up all the things i wanted to say back i forgot that it was not usa. then the rest happened. 

 

still think everyone should have photo ID to vote. 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, stoner said:

 

i've never argued against short term memory loss. in fact this could be used as an example. i clearly read the article. however after getting to the end then thinking up all the things i wanted to say back i forgot that it was not usa. then the rest happened. 

 

still think everyone should have photo ID to vote. 

 

 

Maybe they should, but this is clearly rigged in the Government’s favor.

 

The parallels between rightwing shenanigans in the U.S. and UK make discernment a challenge.

[EVENKEEL]

You want to vote, bring your photo ID. Not so hard. Seems like common sense to me.

[JayClay]

As expected there is already a huge amount of ignorance in this thread about the situation.

 

Here are a few bullet points that may help people, who actually want to, understand the situation better:

 

• The UK does not have a national ID card system. It is not considered 'normal' in the UK to carry ID around unless you expect it to be required. 
• Until last year there was no requirement for people to show ID to vote in the UK.
• The UK government has made little to no effort to advertise the new requirements, so many people do not know that they need to bring ID with them.
• Of those that do know they now need to carry ID, many of them assume that any government -issued photo ID will suffice. It will not. There are only certain documents that the government will consider acceptable.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, JayClay said:

As expected there is already a huge amount of ignorance about the situation.

 

Here are a few bullet points that may help people, who actually want to, understand the situation better:

 

• The UK does not have a national ID card system. It is not considered 'normal' in the UK to carry ID around unless you expect it to be required. 
• Until last year there was NO requirement for people to show ID to vote in the UK.
• The UK government has made little to no effort to advertise the new requirements, so many people do not know that they need to bring ID with them.
• Of those that do know they now need to carry ID, many of them assume that any government -issued photo ID will suffice. It will not. There are only certain documents that the government will consider acceptable.

 

Correct.

 

And the ‘acceptable’ documents are heavily weighted in favor of those commonly used by demographic groups who tend to vote Tory, while similar documents commonly carried by demographic groups who tend not to vote Tory are not acceptable.

 

It’s gerrymandering, clear and simple.

 

[Wobblybob]

 

 

The Veterans ID Card is quite new idea, I don't think there is any need for some posters to get paranoid about it and start talking about conspiracy theories. Mistakes do happen, c'est la vie. 🥴

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

 

 

The Veterans ID Card is quite new idea, I don't think there is any need for some posters to get paranoid about it and start talking about conspiracy theories. Mistakes do happen, c'est la vie. 🥴

It’s clearly not fake news if the veteran card was not accepted.

 

 

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s clearly not fake news if the veteran card was not accepted.

 

 

You are trying to turn a molehill into a mountain, it's a non event, there were plenty of other ways to prove identity.

 

[JayClay]

6 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

You want to vote, bring your photo ID. Not so hard. Seems like common sense to me.

 

Clearly not common sense to the ex prime minister, who's party brought the rule in

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uks-boris-johnson-who-introduced-voter-id-rule-forgets-his-while-voting-2024-05-02/

[treetops]

The link in the OP is currently taking you to the Boris story too, although I read the original article.  The guy wasn't barred, just told to get the right ID.  No big deal, no conspiracy, no gerrymandering.

[RayC]

17 hours ago, Gottfrid said:

Not a problem. Simple and easy. Just have a government issued photo ID. This is the rule for voting in almost any country in the world. But of course. UK had to be different again.

 

It's not only the UK being different. There are many countries e.g. The Netherlands where ID cards are not compulsory.

 

However, having said that I agree that ID cards are simple and easy. Imo the benefits - especially in this digital age - for both the individual and the state far outweigh the negatives.

[EVENKEEL]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Correct.

 

And the ‘acceptable’ documents are heavily weighted in favor of those commonly used by demographic groups who tend to vote Tory, while similar documents commonly carried by demographic groups who tend not to vote Tory are not acceptable.

 

It’s gerrymandering, clear and simple.

 

Are you saying one groups of individuals aren't smart enough to obtain an appropriate ID to vote? 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Are you saying one groups of individuals aren't smart enough to obtain an appropriate ID to vote? 

Nope, I didn’t say that at all.

 

Feel free to go back and check.

[Chomper Higgot]

20 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

It's not only the UK being different. There are many countries e.g. The Netherlands where ID cards are not compulsory.

 

However, having said that I agree that ID cards are simple and easy. Imo the benefits - especially in this digital age - for both the individual and the state far outweigh the negatives.

I’m not convinced the positives outweigh the negatives.

 

There is issue of Governments being in control of what becomes an essential means to obtain essential services.

 

I have on a number of occasions lived and worked in countries in which ID cards are mandated. The period between applying and texting ID is very special kind of purgatory in which the applicant is essentially a ‘non-person’, unable to access bank facilities, rent accommodation, access medical care or even simple things like obtaining a phone SIM card or buy a rail season ticket.

 

I’m sure the idea of such restrictions on immigrants would appeal to our resident racists and xenophobes but at a society level they inevitably lead to abuse of immigrants and increases in crime by people who are excluded.

 

I like the idea of the citizens choosing the Government rather than citizenship being something that Governments can withhold by refusing to issue or by canceling an ID card.

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not convinced the positives outweigh the negatives.

 

There is issue of Governments being in control of what becomes an essential means to obtain essential services.

 

I have on a number of occasions lived and worked in countries in which ID cards are mandated. The period between applying and texting ID is very special kind of purgatory in which the applicant is essentially a ‘non-person’, unable to access bank facilities, rent accommodation, access medical care or even simple things like obtaining a phone SIM card or buy a rail season ticket.

 

I’m sure the idea of such restrictions on immigrants would appeal to our resident racists and xenophobes but at a society level they inevitably lead to abuse of immigrants and increases in crime by people who are excluded.

 

I like the idea of the citizens choosing the Government rather than citizenship being something that Governments can withhold by refusing to issue or by canceling an ID card.

 

 

Please give me a short list of countries where I can go visit and participate in their national elections. I'll wait.....

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Please give me a short list of countries where I can go visit and participate in their national elections. I'll wait.....

When did I ever say there are countries where you can go and participate in National Elections?

 

I did not.

 

Feel free to go back and check.

 

 

[RayC]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not convinced the positives outweigh the negatives.

 

There is issue of Governments being in control of what becomes an essential means to obtain essential services.

 

I have on a number of occasions lived and worked in countries in which ID cards are mandated. The period between applying and texting ID is very special kind of purgatory in which the applicant is essentially a ‘non-person’, unable to access bank facilities, rent accommodation, access medical care or even simple things like obtaining a phone SIM card or buy a rail season ticket.

 

I’m sure the idea of such restrictions on immigrants would appeal to our resident racists and xenophobes but at a society level they inevitably lead to abuse of immigrants and increases in crime by people who are excluded.

 

I like the idea of the citizens choosing the Government rather than citizenship being something that Governments can withhold by refusing to issue or by canceling an ID card.

 

 

 

ID cards were - and I'm pretty sure still are - compulsory in Belgium. It was 25 years ago when I first applied for an ID card there but, if I remember correctly, the application process consisted of us presenting ourselves at the town hall where we were given a document stating that our applications were being processed. This document was accepted by banks, etc. Again, If memory serves we received our ID cards +/- 1 week later. All in all, a minor irritation but no great inconvenience.

 

I don't doubt that it will take refugees longer to obtain an ID card. That is unfortunate but they will be 'in the system' and have access to essential services.

 

The likelihood of a country such as Belgium refusing to (re)issue or withdraw an ID card without justification is imo almost non-existent. In any event, if the state is that keen to persecute an individual, then it will do so regardless of whether they possess an ID card or not.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

ID cards were - and I'm pretty sure still are - compulsory in Belgium. It was 25 years ago when I first applied for an ID card there but, if I remember correctly, the application process consisted of us presenting ourselves at the town hall where we were given a document stating that our applications were being processed. This document was accepted by banks, etc. Again, If memory serves we received our ID cards +/- 1 week later. All in all, a minor irritation but no great inconvenience.

 

I don't doubt that it will take refugees longer to obtain an ID card. That is unfortunate but they will be 'in the system' and have access to essential services.

 

The likelihood of a country such as Belgium refusing to (re)issue or withdraw an ID card without justification is imo almost non-existent. In any event, if the state is that keen to persecute an individual, then it will do so regardless of whether they possess an ID card or not.

Laws once on the statute books have a habit of having long term impacts.

 

The norms of Government behavior today are very different than even a decade ago, who knows what the future will bring.

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

44 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

When did I ever say there are countries where you can go and participate in National Elections?

 

I did not.

 

Feel free to go back and check.

 

 

Then why is showing an ID such an obstacle?

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, EVENKEEL said:

Then why is showing an ID such an obstacle?

You did read the link I posted?

 

Oh and there’s this:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/02/minister-sorry-as-veterans-find-id-card-not-valid-for-english-elections