Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Original poster stated off-topic but it is true we contribute a lot or was it a troll and so many and not just this site???? I replied and said the post was a contradiction but now ignored this poster.

 Meanwhile, we have to wait for the never-official statement and the so-called new forms due out later and I am beginning to think no one has any idea how this will pan out even the Revenue and so many differing experts who are lawyers!!

Various views on the benefit to the  Thai economy.

But every Baht counts, should you lose base load from one sector it makes other sectors proportionally more essential. 

The Son reckons there is a faction that are tending toward the tourist that is  to come and spend money in a short period, and they are focusing on that.

[NoDisplayName]

11 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

This only comes into play when a taxpayer receives gifts exceeding 10m or 20m during the tax year.

 

 

Right, that was at the bottom of page 2.

Still have the two items on the first page where it appears that exclusion can be applied.

Items 1 and 2.

[Guavaman]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

Still have the two items on the first page where it appears that exclusion can be applied.

Items 1 and 2.

Actually, on the Income Exemption Entitlement Form to be used with ภ.ง.ด.90, the form is set up so that “… the taxpayer can elect to apply the exemption to any categories of income from 40 (1) – (8), but the aggregated exempted amount cannot exceed 190,000 baht. If the exemption applies, fill in the information in ภ.ง.ด.90.” 

 

Note the double asterisks **

 

No. 2-9  Assessable Income         Exempted Income*        Income after deduction** of exemption to be filled in ภ.ง.ด.90

[jwest10]

Thanks No  Display Name

Yes seen this and seen both forms 90 and 91  and the one with the exempted income  was the 91 one  unless there is a more up to date one but have been told the forms going to be updated later on in the year.
Thanks again
John

[OJAS]

On 7/25/2024 at 11:06 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

What I do know is this - I dont trust any Thailand Government Department/Official.  Not just because of corruption - but because they are incompetent and also because I have no legal recourse when/if anything goes sideways. If Somchai in the local TRD Office decides that I am 'rich Falang' and must pay huge amount of income taxes (ignores all my deductions etc.), I have very little (none really) legal recourse to challenge that decision.

 

By the same token, if Somchai in the local TRD office decides that 'rich Falang' who does not file a tax return (even though his total assessable income is in excess of the relevant threshold) should be punishable not by a 2,000 THB fine but instead a lengthy stretch in the Bangkok Hilton, again said Falang has "very little (none really) legal recourse to challenge that decision", even if he owes no tax, it seems to me.

[topt]

35 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

By the same token, if Somchai in the local TRD office decides that 'rich Falang' who does not file a tax return (even though his total assessable income is in excess of the relevant threshold) should be punishable not by a 2,000 THB fine but instead a lengthy stretch in the Bangkok Hilton, again said Falang has "very little (none really) legal recourse to challenge that decision", even if he owes no tax, it seems to me.

I personally think that is a bit of a "stretch""............

[bkk6060]

53 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

By the same token, if Somchai in the local TRD office decides that 'rich Falang' who does not file a tax return (even though his total assessable income is in excess of the relevant threshold) should be punishable not by a 2,000 THB fine but instead a lengthy stretch in the Bangkok Hilton, again said Falang has "very little (none really) legal recourse to challenge that decision", even if he owes no tax, it seems to me.

Well, if published it certainly could create a mad rush to file by folks sitting in the weeds thinking they need to do nothing.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

By the same token, if Somchai in the local TRD office decides that 'rich Falang' who does not file a tax return (even though his total assessable income is in excess of the relevant threshold) should be punishable not by a 2,000 THB fine but instead a lengthy stretch in the Bangkok Hilton, again said Falang has "very little (none really) legal recourse to challenge that decision", even if he owes no tax, it seems to me.

Somchai's authority does not extend to such things.  Somchai's authority extends to assessing and deciding upon tax returns lodged in his Office and assigned to him for review - not sending an Expat to jail. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Well, if published it certainly could create a mad rush to file by folks sitting in the weeds thinking they need to do nothing.

True. And it will also cause a lot of Expats in all walks of life to decide to leave Thailand at the first opportunity. 

 

[motdaeng]

56 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

True. And it will also cause a lot of Expats in all walks of life to decide to leave Thailand at the first opportunity. 

 

that might be a good thing ...

i wouldn't miss a certain low-life foreigner group who think it's their right to behave like monkeys ... they know they can get away with everything.

[Mike Teavee]

8 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

that might be a good thing ...

i wouldn't miss a certain low-life foreigner group who think it's their right to behave like monkeys ... they know they can get away with everything.

Problem is, who's more likely to leave? The guy who's remitting 500K pa (Who probably wont have any tax to pay anyway) or the guy remitting 5Million pa?

 

NB. I'm not saying the guy remitting 500K is a lowlife or the guy remitting 5Million pa isn't but on a purely monetary basis if you have more money not only do you more options available to you for living elsewhere, it's more beneficial (tax wise) for you to do so,    

 

Edited July 27 by Mike Teavee

[stat]

4 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

that might be a good thing ...

i wouldn't miss a certain low-life foreigner group who think it's their right to behave like monkeys ... they know they can get away with everything.

It will not be the guys with low income/remittances who will have to pay income tax so I do not really understand your post.

[Klonko]

8 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Problem is, who's more likely to leave? The guy who's remitting 500K pa (Who probably wont have any tax to pay anyway) or the guy remitting 5Million pa?

…

I wonder how many claiming to leave Thailand evaluated their tax position thoroughly. Financially well off people do not necessarily have to leave or limit their stay to 179 days permanently but may just need  to be non tax resident every five years. New tax residents can move to Thailand in July and remit any sum for their luxury villa or condo.

 

IMHO as long as the tax rate is not higher than 10% (THB 850 taxable income with DTA), the lower infrastructure in neighbouring countries or the cost for avoiding tax residence permanently does not make tax savings worthwhile. Really affected are people with respective  or higher taxable income which need to remit all income for their annual expenses and have no recourse to other foreign assets.

Edited July 27 by Klonko

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Klonko said:

Financially well off people do not necessarily have to leave or limit their stay to 179 days permanently but may just need  to be non tax resident every five years

Technically you're potentially liable for tax on any income arising whilst you're Thai Tax Resident so somebody earning £50,000 pa remitting nothing for 4 years then £250,000 in year 5 whilst they were not Tax Resident would (technically) be liable for Tax on the income that accrued during the 4 years they were Tax Resident (I.e. £200,000) 

 

Practically you wouldn't be filing a return for the year that you were non-resident so I can't see how it could be taxed.

[Danderman123]

13 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

True. And it will also cause a lot of Expats in all walks of life to decide to leave Thailand at the first opportunity. 

 

I talked to a fairly wealthy ex-pat the other day about the new tax regulations.

 

He vaguely knew about it, and said that if he is forced to file a tax return, he is leaving Thailand.

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

I talked to a fairly wealthy ex-pat the other day about the new tax regulations.

 

He vaguely knew about it, and said that if he is forced to file a tax return, he is leaving Thailand.

 

fair enough, but how many times have i heard this in the last 20 years because of some law or regulation changes?

yes, i am sure there are people leaving, but also new arrivals ...

 

if i were wealthy and worried about the new tax law, i would check the LTR visa...

[Ricardo]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Technically you're potentially liable for tax on any income arising whilst you're Thai Tax Resident so somebody earning £50,000 pa remitting nothing for 4 years then £250,000 in year 5 whilst they were not Tax Resident would (technically) be liable for Tax on the income that accrued during the 4 years they were Tax Resident (I.e. £200,000) 

 

So has it now been absolutely confirmed  (Sorry but I haven't been paying-attention)  that a tax-resident (which I undoubtedly am) is now taxable on worldwide-income, interest/dividends/pensions/unrealised-capital-gains, not just on money actually transferred into Thailand during a tax-resident year ?

 

I had thought worldwide-income was still up-in-the-air ?

 

Currently I'm still aiming to reduce my visible-transfers, and hoping to stay below-the-radar, by bringing-in less than B500k so not filing because I don't owe anything.  Does that definitely not work now ?

[motdaeng]

11 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

So has it now been absolutely confirmed  (Sorry but I haven't been paying-attention)  that a tax-resident (which I undoubtedly am) is now taxable on worldwide-income, interest/dividends/pensions/unrealised-capital-gains, not just on money actually transferred into Thailand during a tax-resident year ?

 

I had thought worldwide-income was still up-in-the-air ?

 

Currently I'm still aiming to reduce my visible-transfers, and hoping to stay below-the-radar, by bringing-in less than B500k so not filing because I don't owe anything.  Does that definitely not work now ?

 

there is no global income tax for thai residents, and hopefully, there never will be.

 

as a thai tax resident, money transferred after january 1, 2024, will be subject to taxation.

transferring savings accumulated before december 31, 2023, will not be taxed.

 

you can find some helpful information here:

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/your-questions-answered/

[Mike Teavee]

17 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

So has it now been absolutely confirmed  (Sorry but I haven't been paying-attention)  that a tax-resident (which I undoubtedly am) is now taxable on worldwide-income, interest/dividends/pensions/unrealised-capital-gains, not just on money actually transferred into Thailand during a tax-resident year ?

 

I had thought worldwide-income was still up-in-the-air ?

 

Currently I'm still aiming to reduce my visible-transfers, and hoping to stay below-the-radar, by bringing-in less than B500k so not filing because I don't owe anything.  Does that definitely not work now ?

No, I was talking just about remitted income so when you remit the £250,000 4 years of that were earned when you were Tax Resident so technically it's assessable income just as if you'd remitted it each year it was earned - In fact it's worse as you would have lost the opportunity to use your annual TEDAs.

 

[Ricardo]

39 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

transferring savings accumulated before december 31, 2023, will not be taxed.

 

 

Thanks, on that basis, I definitely won't be taxable  for many years to come !  Indeed, I should love to live that long !

 

36 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

No, I was talking just about remitted income so when you remit the £250,000 4 years of that were earned when you were Tax Resident so technically it's assessable income just as if you'd remitted it each year it was earned - In fact it's worse as you would have lost the opportunity to use your annual TEDAs.

 

 

Thanks, it was the difference between "remitted income" and "on any income arising", which had been concerning me.

 

The sooner the TRD make this all crystal clear, the sooner I'll be able to relax, and get back to my hobbies.  

Edited July 28 by Ricardo

[ballpoint]

10 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

No, I was talking just about remitted income so when you remit the £250,000 4 years of that were earned when you were Tax Resident so technically it's assessable income just as if you'd remitted it each year it was earned - In fact it's worse as you would have lost the opportunity to use your annual TEDAs.

 

 

I think Ricardo has a point though.  The income you earn over the four years when no remittance is made is not liable for Thai taxes.  And you are not a tax resident the year in which the remittance is made, therefore, (in theory) that remittance is tax exempt. 

 

Looking at the Thai Revenue Department's definition of a "taxable person"

 

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

 

I suppose "A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand" could cover income earned while a resident, but remitted when not, but that could be countered by the next sentence. You are a non-resident that year, who is bringing income into Thailand, therefore it is not subject to tax.  The only thing we do know for sure is that, if you are a Thai tax resident the year you bring in that income, no matter what year it was earned, you must declare it for tax purposes.

 

There is also (currently) no mechanism with which they can tax remitted funds from any source if the remittance was made outside of Thai tax residency. Changing this would require a major change to the definition of "taxable person".  Maybe if enough people actually start carrying out the year's non-residency ploy they will get around to changing that definition, but, in the meantime, it appears you are quite within your rights not to file a return for the year you were non-resident.

 

Having said all that, if I do go with that method, I would sell and remit funds during the same year I was non-resident, thus removing any ambiguity. (Although then it could be argued that I am selling capital gains made, but not realised, while I was a resident.  As far as I'm concerned, however, I only earn the gain when I sell the funds. And I'm sticking to that).

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Ricardo said:

 

So has it now been absolutely confirmed  (Sorry but I haven't been paying-attention)  that a tax-resident (which I undoubtedly am) is now taxable on worldwide-income, interest/dividends/pensions/unrealised-capital-gains, not just on money actually transferred into Thailand during a tax-resident year ?

 

I had thought worldwide-income was still up-in-the-air ?

 

Currently I'm still aiming to reduce my visible-transfers, and hoping to stay below-the-radar, by bringing-in less than B500k so not filing because I don't owe anything.  Does that definitely not work now ?

Yeah still up in the air, The head of the Thai Revenue Dept said that they want to implement at the beginning of 2025 but that not everyone agrees with all of the program I guess so they are "still discussing it".  Maybe they worry about people fleeing already, who knows  after all TIT!

[TroubleandGrumpy]

15 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

that might be a good thing ...

i wouldn't miss a certain low-life foreigner group who think it's their right to behave like monkeys ... they know they can get away with everything.

Most of those types are tourists - just like you.

[jwest10]

Yes indeed

As with everywhere the really rich do not get targetted but going after those who bring in just over 500k and they get taxed the easy target and many of us have wonderful Thai families and we support them the best we can on a frozen state pension and fixed income.
Also why one earth is this long-term visa not going to be taxed and the filthy rich should pay tax first but no again and again. Same  throughout the world..

Why is the US pensions exempt and yes under DLR's and how is that fair?

Stat not everyone is low life ok
BTW many of us have no homes back in Blighty and no family as they are here in Thailand and yes my Thai family.

 

Edited July 28 by jwest10

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

I talked to a fairly wealthy ex-pat the other day about the new tax regulations.

 

He vaguely knew about it, and said that if he is forced to file a tax return, he is leaving Thailand.

There are many wealthy people who are saying that, or have already started to do that (to stay under 180 days in Thailand).

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

I talked to a fairly wealthy ex-pat the other day about the new tax regulations.

 

He vaguely knew about it, and said that if he is forced to file a tax return, he is leaving Thailand.

That is IMO not the case - and everything lse I say is IMO.

 

Until Thailand taxes all income earned worldwide they can only tax income remitted into Thailand during a year that a person is a tax resident of Thailand (180+ days). 

 

Taxing worldwide income is where they want to go and are right now they planning on doing that. However, right now the Law in Thailand is that income earned overseas is only taxable when it is remitted into Thailand in any given calendar year when that person remitting it, is a tax resident.

 

The current rule change means that it is now taxable income in Thailand when a tax resident earns income last year (starting 2024) and then remits it into Thailand the following year (or years later) when they are still a tax resident. 

 

The reason they are going to move to a worldwide tax system is because of exactly what you said - some people can and will only remit into Thailand some 'serious' money, in the year/s when they are not a tax resident for that year.  That option disappears when all worldwide income earned in the year a person is a tax resident is taxable whenever it is remitted into Thailand and whether that person is a tax resident that year or not.   Obviously under those worldwide rules, those who are able to manage their affairs, will ensure that they only earn income in the years they are not a tax resident, and only remit that income into Thailand also in the years when they are not a tax resident. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

36 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

As with everywhere the really rich do not get targetted but going after those who bring in just over 500k and they get taxed the easy target and many of us have wonderful Thai families and we support them the best we can on a frozen state pension and fixed income.
Also why one earth is this long-term visa not going to be taxed and the filthy rich should pay tax first but no again and again. Same  throughout the world.

In effect you are right, but that is not the 'target'.  The problem (reality) is that whatever rules are made to get income taxes and other such things, the wealthy have both the smarts (advisers) and the ability (multiple residents, business structures, trusts, family deals, etc.) to get around most of those new rules. There are people who make a very good living giving advice to the wealthy on how to avoid taxes and other payments to Govt, and a big part of that is being across whatever rule changes the numpty politicians and public servants are thinking of implementing. I have a very wealthy mate and one day over lunch he got a call from his adviser. He spoke for a few minutes and when finished, he told me that the Govt was about to change the Superannuation rules to take more money off those with large Super accounts, so his adviser recommended he change his 'wealth portfolio' and move money out of his Super accounts immediately (his and wife's).  3-4 weeks later the change was announced and took effect immediately. That is how it is folks - no use arguing or fighting - you would do the same if you had serious wealth. 

[Presnock]

52 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Yes indeed

As with everywhere the really rich do not get targetted but going after those who bring in just over 500k and they get taxed the easy target and many of us have wonderful Thai families and we support them the best we can on a frozen state pension and fixed income.
Also why one earth is this long-term visa not going to be taxed and the filthy rich should pay tax first but no again and again. Same  throughout the world..

Why is the US pensions exempt and yes under DLR's and how is that fair?

Stat not everyone is low life ok
BTW many of us have no homes back in Blighty and no family as they are here in Thailand and yes my Thai family.

 

It is the way the US representatives wrote the DTA for the US people in Thailand - same with the LTR, it is open for anyone meeting the qualifications, even with just a US govt pension I qualified and got it, not knowing if the LTR benefit of no taxes on remitted monies or if the DTA would still be primary taxed by US govt only, covering both cases as after all TIT.  Who does know what will be the next program...unless the economy picks up, unless the TRD garners more than they hoped for, or if there is a new govt or leader...TIT rules.

[Presnock]

21 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That is IMO not the case - and everything lse I say is IMO.

 

Until Thailand taxes all income earned worldwide they can only tax income remitted into Thailand during a year that a person is a tax resident of Thailand (180+ days). 

 

Taxing worldwide income is where they want to go and are right now they planning on doing that. However, right now the Law in Thailand is that income earned overseas is only taxable when it is remitted into Thailand in any given calendar year when that person remitting it, is a tax resident.

 

The current rule change means that it is now taxable income in Thailand when a tax resident earns income last year (starting 2024) and then remits it into Thailand the following year (or years later) when they are still a tax resident. 

 

The reason they are going to move to a worldwide tax system is because of exactly what you said - some people can and will only remit into Thailand some 'serious' money, in the year/s when they are not a tax resident for that year.  That option disappears when all worldwide income earned in the year a person is a tax resident is taxable whenever it is remitted into Thailand and whether that person is a tax resident that year or not.   Obviously under those worldwide rules, those who are able to manage their affairs, will ensure that they only earn income in the years they are not a tax resident, and only remit that income into Thailand also in the years when they are not a tax resident. 

and this is exactly why the 138 countries signed that agreement in July 2023 - too many people not paying taxes on earned income to any country.  Of course it wasn't the only reason but is one of the stated reasons, money laundering  and other corruptioon.    As for Americans, we cannot escape the IRS no matter where we make money legally...even Ben Franklin over 200 years ago made his famous quote "in life there is no certainty except death and taxes" or words to that effect.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

No, I was talking just about remitted income so when you remit the £250,000 4 years of that were earned when you were Tax Resident so technically it's assessable income just as if you'd remitted it each year it was earned - In fact it's worse as you would have lost the opportunity to use your annual TEDAs.

 

 

How did you come to that realization?

 

In a year in which you are tax resident, you MAY be liable for tax on assessable income remitted to Thailand.

 

In a year in which you are NOT tax resident, you are NOT liable for tax on any funds remitted to Thailand.

 

Does this imply that NON tax residents may be required to file tax returns and pay tax on remittances?

 

I'd need a citation if your claim were true, as if one exists it would be a real game-changer.