New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[Danderman123]

3 minutes ago, 10baht said:

Nothing new to Thailand, failed schemes , like the 300 baht tax on airline arrivals they have been trying to do for years?

The question is whether it's worth it to prepare for a situation where the Revenue Department actually audits people in 2025.

[JackGats]

3 hours ago, ukrules said:

Nonsense

 

Many people don't spend 180 days a year in the country and what if your extension is in December just before the end of the tax year - how they gonna get around that?

 

Wouldn't they simply ask about the  earliest applicable tax year? Like if a revenue service requires you to prove you were 183 days in Thailand, this would apply to the already completed calendar year, obviously not to the year not yet ended.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Richard5 said:

If you think that Thailand does not have the tools and capabilities to enforce this law you are wrong. My calculations indicate that if you are here over 180 days, are single and over 65, if you remit one million baht to Thailand in a tax year you will have a tax liability. And to the degree that remittance crosses the one million mark that liability goes up significantly. Everything is trackable...Wise, Credit Cards. ATM withdrawals...literally everything. If you believe that this is going to be short lived, not enforced or is lacking in details  I think you will be in for an unpleasant  surprise 

 

Why do you specify this one million baht?

[jayboy]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I never suggested that individual transactions were being monitored, only that the capability exists.

 

A foreign credit/debit card transaction has a large footprint. The merchant has a record, the merchants bank has a record for settlement purposes, Visa/Mastercard has a copy and the central bank gets a copy.

 

Actually you did imply it.Capability exists for a huge range of actions but one should focus on the credible ones.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

51 minutes ago, HappyExpat57 said:

NOT nonsense! Immigration doesn't care how many days you spend in Thailand - if you are filing for an annual extension, they will probably be instructed to require the retiree to file a tax return for approval. Add to that how every immigration office follows their own interpretation of the rules and you have a recipe for the perfect cluster kcuf.

Immigration has to care how many days a person spends in Thailand, if it's under 180 days, they are not tax resident and don't need to file a tax return.

[Phulublub]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

expats are advised to seek professional financial advice to understand how these treaties may impact their specific circumstances, reported ScandAsia.

Ah...perhaps this is the underlying reason for the "new" article that tells us not a single thing we did not already know.

 

PH

[Danderman123]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

At some point you are going to present your passport to somebody, either on the way in or the way out. At that point, they found you.

Yes, Immigration sees me when I enter or exit the country.

 

But Immigration is not the Revenue Department. My question is how would the Revenue Department find me to audit me?

 

Please don't answer that TAT sees me when I take part in one of their promotions.

[Taboo2]

Here comes the lawyers....and request for tax seminars....

[jayboy]

9 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The implication is that any Thai business that receives payment via foreign credit cards doesn't have to declare those payments, since an audit can't flag them.

 

Great news for hotels and restaurants.

 

Of course they would have to declare those payments and account for them.

 

My point was that holders of those foreign credit cards, most of which would presumably be visitors, would not be investigated to see if there was some chance their Thai tax affairs were not complete.

[anchadian]

What if you transfer (Wise) all of your income to your wife or girlfriend’s Thai bank account and withdraw from that account as and when required, would that work?

We all trust our wives and GF’s 555

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

Yes, Immigration sees me when I enter or exit the country.

 

But Immigration is not the Revenue Department. My question is how would the Revenue Department find me to audit me?

 

Please don't answer that TAT sees me when I take part in one of their promotions.

Theoretically......Immi is part of the Police. If TRD believes you've committed tax evasion and want to talk to you, Immi would record your name in the access database and you would be stopped. 

[Danderman123]

Just now, jayboy said:

 

Of course they would have to declare those payments and account for them.

 

My point was that holders of those foreign credit cards, most of which would presumably be visitors, would not be investigated to see if there was some chance their Thai tax affairs were not complete.

But a foreigner under audit who made credit card payments to Thai enterprises would be invisible to anyone with access to the data (presumably the Revenue Department).

 

Got it.

[jayboy]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Theoretically......Immi is part of the Police. If TRD believes you've committed tax evasion and want to talk to you, Immi would record your name in the access database and you would be stopped. 

 

Mike you seriously need to take a moment to reflect on scaremongering.

 

 

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, anchadian said:

What if you transfer (Wise) all of your income to your wife or girlfriend’s Thai bank account and withdraw from that account as and when required, would that work?

We all trust our wives and GF’s 555

It certainly would work for the Thai ladies. And their Thai boyfriends (if they have them).

 

Next scene: Farangs hurling himself off a high rise balcony.

[Peterphuket]

1 hour ago, worrab said:

I have checked the situation with large amounts in a Thai bank and it is just as safe there as anywhere else. There is more than enough protection in place. The only time it could go wrong is if the bank went bankrupt which is highly unlikely with the big banks.

Well, if I remember well there was a Thai, about 20 years ago that went bankrupt, the name I can't remember exactly the name, something with Siamcommercial, by the way the maximum guarantee on your account is 1 million bath, still something to worry about.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Mike you seriously need to take a moment to reflect on scaremongering.

 

 

The member asked me how so I explained and I did say, theoretically. What are we supposed to do, ignore members questions and hide behind a bush!

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Theoretically......Immi is part of the Police. If TRD believes you've committed tax evasion and want to talk to you, Immi would record your name in the access database and you would be stopped. 

You just kicked the can down the road.

 

How would the Revenue Department even know I exist, let alone suspect me as a tax evader?

 

Any effort they spend on me would be a waste of time, since I'm not a tax resident this year.

[ExpatOilWorker]

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

At some point you are going to present your passport to somebody, either on the way in or the way out. At that point, they found you.

Now did they?

I get a new passport every 5 years. One of my bank books is still on my old passport, never had a need to update it at the bank.

The condo I bought 20 years ago is registered in a paper pile at the Land-department on a very old passport, which now, I assume is linked to the yearly real-estate tax bill.

My name is similar to John Smith, so I find it hard to believe the Thai government can track all this.

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, mrbojangles said:

 

I normally change my car every 3 years and my current car is 3 years old this month. Due to the uncertainty around the tax implications of transferring large sums here, I've decided to hold off buying a new car for now. Several of my mates are doing the same thing. Dont know how many other expats will hold off buying big ticket items (even houses/condos) as they don't want to trigger any alarms by transferring large sums of money into their bank accounts.

 

This is one good example of why overall tax revenues derived from expat retiree spending are likely to fall quite a bit. 

 

Hope you get the new Roller soon. 

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, Peterphuket said:

Well, if I remember well there was a Thai, about 20 years ago that went bankrupt, the name I can't remember exactly the name, something with Siamcommercial, by the way the maximum guarantee on your account is 1 million bath, still something to worry about.

I am thinking more along the line of people who have had bank deposits disappear, usually from bank employees embezzlement.

[4MyEgo]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That 3 or 4 million comprises everyone from neighbouring countries, Chinese, Laos, Burmese, Cambodian , Malay etc etc. A huge percentage of them will not earn enough to pay tax, let alone file a return. Western expats are believed to be in the region of 300k, including retirees.. 

 

My bad, I thought we were talking foreigners, mistaken for Expats, and yes agree that figure sounds correct.

[WilliamSmits]

I send all needed money to my wife each month. She is registered as "farmer" in Isaan and we live in Bangkok.

The idea of paying tax never occurred to her.

Who is worried? Or are it just tax "advisors" making us worried?

[lordgrinz]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Correct. The US SSc income is exempt by treaty and the pre 2024 savings are exempt by Por162.

 

(regards to Savings/Income before Jan 1st 2024) - Proving that will be the problem, no guidance on that yet. 

 

[Captor]

2 hours ago, bob smith said:

this is going to be fun for the thais to enforce 

 

are they going to send the tax man around to my front door with a clipboard?

 

let's wait and see.

 

bob.

What will we get in return if paying tax in Thailand? Same as Thai citizen? For example free/cheap healtcare....? My guess is nothing in return.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Now did they?

I get a new passport every 5 years. One of my bank books is still on my old passport, never had a need to update it at the bank.

The condo I bought 20 years ago is registered in a paper pile at the Land-department on a very old passport, which now, I assume is linked to the yearly real-estate tax bill.

My name is similar to John Smith, so I find it hard to believe the Thai government can track all this.

I don't know how it works for others but every time I get a new passport, I have to get my stamps carried across and the Immi system is updated with the new numbers. And when I get a new passport, I have to register the number with my banks, they are pretty hot on that score and wont let me transact using an unregistered passport number....I know this from experience two years ago.

[Coota]

It's probably been covered before but I'm not trawling trough pages and pages of inane comments to try to find it so, my question is, if we pay the Tax what do we get in return? Thai prices at National Parks? Equal status to a Thai? Access to all things that Thais have that exclude Farangs? Equal rights as a Thai?

 

I recently went to Kahao Yai with my family and I had to pay 400 baht, the wife 40 and the kids 20. I aked the lady at the booth if I will soon be paying Thai rates as I will soon be paying Tax here and she had a laugh and said "no". I then asked my wife to ask her if she was hearing this a lot from Farangs and she said nearly every Farang that comes through asks about that.

[bob smith]

2 minutes ago, Captor said:

What will we get in return if paying tax in Thailand? Same as Thai citizen? For example free/cheap healtcare....? My guess is nothing in return.

no taxation without representation! 

 

bob.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

(regards to Savings/Income before Jan 1st 2024) - Proving that will be the problem, no guidance on that yet. 

 

A statement or bank book dated 1 January 2024 will work, what more can there be.

[Danderman123]

17 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Actually you did imply it.Capability exists for a huge range of actions but one should focus on the credible ones.

 

 

There are 2 credible outcomes here:

 

The new rules are forgotten, since it would take a lot of effort to accommodate retirees.

 

Or

 

A handful of retirees are audited, and some are sent to the monkey house, as a means of encouraging compliance.

[J Branche]

6 PAGES Of Random Useless Chatter

Thai Revenue Department is the Official Tax Authority in Thailand rd.go.th

Go here https://www.rd.go.th/21/page-2.html click on 21 November 2023 document titled

"Questions - Answers about paying personal income tax according to Section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code"

"The provisions of paragraph one shall not apply to assessable income arising before the date 1 January 2024"

Also known as Order P.162 /2023 signed by Director General of the Revenue Department

 

Supporting documentation in English,

Google. thai revenue department FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

Dual Tax Agreements and Treaties 

 

The US and other Tax Agreements are Still Enforce and should be complied with.

 

US Tax Agreement PDF Page 23

ARTICLE 20

Pensions and Social Security Payments

 1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.

 2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

 

If THIS information from Official sources is Not Accurate, Please share the email from the Thai Revenue Department stating otherwise.

 

Took me 20 minutes to find this information on Official Websites.

 

Tax Agreements are still Enforced.

Thai Revenue Department is the Official Tax Authority in THAILAND