Sexual assault in an international school

[save the frogs]

- You don't want to dirty your soul by contacting dirty cops or any of that nonsense. Don't stoop to their level. Don't participate in the corruption. 

 

- You don't know who has contacts with who and how much problem they can cause you.

 

- Just get her out of there and DO NOTHING. No lawyers, no cops, no contacts in high places, no journalists, no connected family members, no bribes/paying off people,  no NOTHING. 

 

- Just move her to a safe place. 

 

Edited May 31 by save the frogs

[FruitPudding]

31 minutes ago, theblether said:

 

Is that all you took from that post? And there was me thinking that you were one of the more switched on members of this forum. 

 

Well, I've read the news enough to know how they handle these things.

[Confuscious]

1 hour ago, FruitPudding said:

 

There are some good girls' schools that are an option instead of moving abroad.

 

Maybe she's had enough hardship. Moving abroad isn't easy for a kid.

 

And anyway, aren't there boys in schools abroad too? There's no logic in your post.

The Thai curriculum is based on learning to respect the religion, your superiors and your parents.

If you want a school who don't follow this curriculum, your choice is limited to very expensive international schools with ONLY foreign teachers.

Good luck with that.

 

Many kids move abroad to have a PROPER education and an education that is not based on the Thai ideology.

Most high-level students like doctors move abroad to learn their job.

A doctor who only had Thai school would not make it to a successful doctor.

And yes, there are boys abroad too, but I don't see the girls being molested by boys or teachers like in Thailand.

The teacher, the school and other involved people would see the finish of their career behind bars.

I have been a teacher in my country and I can guarantee you that the things you see in Thailand are nowhere else 

Thailand is a third world country and it will remain like this as long the dinosaurs are in power.

[FruitPudding]

51 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

The Thai curriculum is based on learning to respect the religion, your superiors and your parents.

If you want a school who don't follow this curriculum, your choice is limited to very expensive international schools with ONLY foreign teachers.

Good luck with that.

 

Many kids move abroad to have a PROPER education and an education that is not based on the Thai ideology.

Most high-level students like doctors move abroad to learn their job.

A doctor who only had Thai school would not make it to a successful doctor.

And yes, there are boys abroad too, but I don't see the girls being molested by boys or teachers like in Thailand.

The teacher, the school and other involved people would see the finish of their career behind bars.

I have been a teacher in my country and I can guarantee you that the things you see in Thailand are nowhere else 

Thailand is a third world country and it will remain like this as long the dinosaurs are in power.

 

Firstly, we are only talking about her going to school in a safe place, and not being sexually assaulted. We aren't comparing education systems. The issue here isn't superior education. Try to stay in topic, Teacher!

 

Secondly, the Western education system has developed, in recent years, an indoctrination that I wouldn't want any more than the Thai indoctrination.

 

In fact, I'd take the traditional, conservative Thai indoctrination over the extreme liberal pish the West is spewing out these days.

 

[MrJ2U]

On 5/30/2024 at 5:55 PM, pedro01 said:

My daughter (half English/half Thai) was sexually assaulted 2 times this week on a school trip. In one case a boy groped her in the swimming pool, then yesterday she was surrounded by a gang of 4 boys who started to touch her butt and breasts. One of the students in the latter attack had already been 'punished' for taking photographs up my daughters skirt. The punishment was suspension. For this offence his punishment is going to be "isolation" - so he's allowed at school but is supposed to stay away from my daughter. After 2 assaults. 

In the oldest attack, my daughter was surrounded by boys again and they started pulling on her bra. Two attacks occurred on school grounds and the other two on a school residential trip in Rayong.

That totals 4 sexual assaults against my daughter - all under school supervision. This is not just happening to my daughter at the school - but the girls are too afraid to come forward because they fear what the boys will do.

I would like your thoughts on civil/criminal action in this case. At the end of the day - it's sexual assault on a minor. Any good tips on lawyers would be good too!
 

Sounds like a good school.

 

If my daughter was sexually assaulted at school Id would make sure the offending boys were be expelled at the very least.

 

What a nightmare for any father.

 

Some of these "private" schools are just money making machines for the owners and the children's safety and education isn't really any concern.

Edited May 31 by MrJ2U

[Confuscious]

59 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

 

Firstly, we are only talking about her going to school in a safe place, and not being sexually assaulted. We aren't comparing education systems. The issue here isn't superior education. Try to stay in topic, Teacher!

 

Secondly, the Western education system has developed, in recent years, an indoctrination that I wouldn't want any more than the Thai indoctrination.

 

In fact, I'd take the traditional, conservative Thai indoctrination over the extreme liberal pish the West is spewing out these days.

 

 

A few years ago, a THAI friend on mine his child was beaten by the thai teacher (see picture).
this happened in one of the high-end schools.
The THAI friend was not "poor", he had a few restaurants over the whole nation and was enrolled in selling food with OTOP plan.
He engaged a lawyer and started a law suit against the school.
The school won the lawsuit and the boy was not accepted in any school in Thailand anymore.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?

My daughter was enrolled in an ENGLISH PROGRAM in one of the best schools around.
Still, she needed, like every other child, stand every morning to listen to the hymn and the Thai flag rising.
Het, cold, rain made no difference.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?
 

In the Thai lessons, the teacher wanted the kids to deliver their work crawling ON THEIR KNEES.
That was the Thai culture and was done everywhere.
Even when abunch of high-placed persons were crawling like a coackroach for a painting.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids.

When your child will finish her studies at a thai university. she can go find a job for 9,000 Baht per month as a cassiere at Mc Donalds.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?

Reading the posts from other members in their answer to you, everybody knows already what a person you are.

PLONK

[Confuscious]

10 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

It looks like she got instructions from Steven Seagal

Here another movie clip from my daughter.
Not exactly Steven Seagal.

 

[Luuk Chaai]

21 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

 

These boys need to learn ' respect ' .

As that is not taught in Thai schools , I would ask your daughter to clearly indentify them , and pay somebody thai to teach them a lesson that is not normally taught in school ... that does not mean that violence has to be implied , but they need to learn some respect . There are 199 ways to do that in a way they won't forget .

 

a whale bone ....  comes to mind   

[sungod]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:38 PM, Robert Paulson said:

Nice statement bro. It seems it would go without saying to anyone not obtuse that I don’t pontificate much on my grammar on here, nor should anyone. Are we supposed to be Hemingway on here or something. I can do ye ol grammar just fine if I need to.  

 Its just you claim to be able to home school at a higher standard than an international school.........not from what I'm seeing.

[Presnock]

12 hours ago, save the frogs said:

might be a good idea to get out of there first because they might try to cause you problems

yeah that is also why folks are suggesting get a lawyer - lawyer will have press contacts and know what and how to complain

[FruitPudding]

5 hours ago, Confuscious said:

 

A few years ago, a THAI friend on mine his child was beaten by the thai teacher (see picture).
this happened in one of the high-end schools.
The THAI friend was not "poor", he had a few restaurants over the whole nation and was enrolled in selling food with OTOP plan.
He engaged a lawyer and started a law suit against the school.
The school won the lawsuit and the boy was not accepted in any school in Thailand anymore.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?

My daughter was enrolled in an ENGLISH PROGRAM in one of the best schools around.
Still, she needed, like every other child, stand every morning to listen to the hymn and the Thai flag rising.
Het, cold, rain made no difference.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?
 

In the Thai lessons, the teacher wanted the kids to deliver their work crawling ON THEIR KNEES.
That was the Thai culture and was done everywhere.
Even when abunch of high-placed persons were crawling like a coackroach for a painting.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids.

When your child will finish her studies at a thai university. she can go find a job for 9,000 Baht per month as a cassiere at Mc Donalds.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?

Reading the posts from other members in their answer to you, everybody knows already what a person you are.

PLONK

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

I have had only good experiences with Thai private schools, both regular and elite.

 

Nothing like your anecdotes at all.

[steven100]

6 hours ago, Confuscious said:

 

A few years ago, a THAI friend on mine his child was beaten by the thai teacher (see picture).
this happened in one of the high-end schools.
The THAI friend was not "poor", he had a few restaurants over the whole nation and was enrolled in selling food with OTOP plan.
He engaged a lawyer and started a law suit against the school.
The school won the lawsuit and the boy was not accepted in any school in Thailand anymore.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?

My daughter was enrolled in an ENGLISH PROGRAM in one of the best schools around.
Still, she needed, like every other child, stand every morning to listen to the hymn and the Thai flag rising.
Het, cold, rain made no difference.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?
 

In the Thai lessons, the teacher wanted the kids to deliver their work crawling ON THEIR KNEES.
That was the Thai culture and was done everywhere.
Even when abunch of high-placed persons were crawling like a coackroach for a painting.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids.

When your child will finish her studies at a thai university. she can go find a job for 9,000 Baht per month as a cassiere at Mc Donalds.
I guess that is the "conservative" indoctrination you want for your kids?

Reading the posts from other members in their answer to you, everybody knows already what a person you are.

 

 

 

Are trying to say you can't beat the system ... in that you'll never win.    ?

[BKKBike09]

On 5/30/2024 at 5:55 PM, pedro01 said:

My daughter (half English/half Thai) was sexually assaulted 2 times this week on a school trip. In one case a boy groped her in the swimming pool, then yesterday she was surrounded by a gang of 4 boys who started to touch her butt and breasts. One of the students in the latter attack had already been 'punished' for taking photographs up my daughters skirt. The punishment was suspension. For this offence his punishment is going to be "isolation" - so he's allowed at school but is supposed to stay away from my daughter. After 2 assaults. 

In the oldest attack, my daughter was surrounded by boys again and they started pulling on her bra. Two attacks occurred on school grounds and the other two on a school residential trip in Rayong.

That totals 4 sexual assaults against my daughter - all under school supervision. This is not just happening to my daughter at the school - but the girls are too afraid to come forward because they fear what the boys will do.

I would like your thoughts on civil/criminal action in this case. At the end of the day - it's sexual assault on a minor. Any good tips on lawyers would be good too!
 

So what's the latest? I'm sure updating the AN community about this matter isn't a priority, but you did start this topic ...

 

[pedro01]

OK - so just to confirm - this is an English International School - not a Thai school. All teachers and headmaster are Western. The admin board is Thai. As I understand it, the owner is Indian - I could be wrong about that. 

 

My daughter came back yesterday. She's distraught. She is putting on a brave face. She does not want to go back to school for a couple of reasons. First - because she fears the friends of the boys that attacked her. Second because she fears one particular boy. This is her choice and I would not force her to go back. We are just spending time with her and spoiling her. 

 

My daughter is 14 and so are the boys. And we all know about the age of criminal responsibility here. Still - there are Juvenile courts here and I have spent time in them. I have seen errant kids up in front of those judges and it sure helped wipe the smiles off a lot of faces. 

 

The boys parents had to collect them from the school trip the day after it occurred. We spent a lot of time on the phone with our daughter, who insisted on staying the additional night of the school trip to spend time with friends. She's 14 - her choice. She did regret that. The friends of the boys sent home were passively-aggressively hostile towards her after she reported the event. And therein lies one issue with the school in my opinion. For kids to blame a victim en-masse for reporting an assault to me seems to imply a culture. Surely the other boys should have been revolted by their friends behavior?

 

None of the boys will be expelled. One boy (on the schools football team) has now assaulted my daughter 3 times. He has assaulted other girls who have not come forward and reported it as they are scared of the repercussions. He is not being expelled, he is being suspended. As far as I know - he will still be on the football team and be rewarded with trips around Thailand and to neighboring countries to play matches. I cannot absolutely confirm this - but it is what the teachers told my daughter - so it's second hand. The school has not informed me of any punishments. The boy that has committed the most assaults has been told he must distance himself 2 meters from my daughter at all times - but considering he feels it's ok to sexually assault a girl, why would he follow this rule?

 

On the other hand - my daughter (who was honor student last year), loves her teachers, she loves her friends, she is doing amazingly academically - and I LOVE the school for that. My son went there and is now in year 3 of University and sitting on a GPA of 4.0 - and he has learning difficulties. Why should she have to leave?

 

4 parents are Thai and one is foreign. I am not sure who is richer than who at the school - nor do I really care. We don't sit at the school gates swinging our d**** around. 

 

I have lodged a formal complaint with the school - which according to their complaints procedure - will bring in teachers and a headmaster from another international school to make a decision. The school has confirmed that the complaints procedure has started. Two teachers were in the room when my daughter was attacked at the "disco", teachers were also supervising when she was assaulted in the pool. 

 

The headmaster at the school has also agreed to a sit down in the week with their lawyer and one of the Thai members of the school board. This is a part of the complaints procedure (well, them bringing a lawyer and a member of the admin board isn't) - so I am sure I have the schools attention. Note also that the school has never tried to hide or deny any of the attacks. They are on school records and I have numerous emails. 

 

I contacted two of the fathers already - I can't say anything about that at this point. Other than neither of them are going to shoot me.

 

As for bringing in influential people. It's a possibility - friends of the wife - but you don't call on favors like that in anything but extreme cases. My brother in law was arrested recently. He drives a van and got pulled over on the usual fake charges. He was taking a group of Germans to golf and one got out the car and started taking video of the cop accepting a bribe and threatened to put the video on the internet to expose him. All over 200 Baht. The cops then arrested the German and my Brother in law.  It took one phone call for the police to not only release everybody but to leave them with an apology. No money changed hands. My brother in law offered to still pay the fine but they were too scared to accept it. That is the only single instance my wife has used this contact. This has not escalated to the point where this is required and we are not going to make that escalation ourselves at this point. We also want to be seen as taking care of our own problems as much as possible. You keep a card like that in your back-pocket for REAL emergencies.

 

The boys have sent texts to my daughter - she has not read them and she doesn't want to. We know they are apologies because they then asked Zoe's friends to tell her to read the messages. 

 

We have a meeting booked with our lawyer on Monday. I am not sure when I'll meet with the school as I want my lawyer present for that - and she's normally pretty busy.

Edited June 1 by pedro01

[cdnvic]

Removed a troll post.

[Confuscious]

5 hours ago, steven100 said:

 

Are trying to say you can't beat the system ... in that you'll never win.    ?

From today's news:

You can not beat the system, which is rotten to the core.

[pedro01]

I just got off the phone from a very pissed Thai father whose daughter is at the same school. 

 

She was also assaulted on the school trip.

 

This was the 3rd assault on her by the same boy - the same one that has assaulted my daughter multiple times.  A 3rd girl we know was also assaulted by the same boy on the same trip - she has not reported it. 

 

 

[BobBKK]

Change schools

[Dnyy]

3 hours ago, pedro01 said:

As for bringing in influential people. It's a possibility - friends of the wife - but you don't call on favors like that in anything but extreme cases. My brother in law was arrested recently. He drives a van and got pulled over on the usual fake charges. He was taking a group of Germans to golf and one got out the car and started taking video of the cop accepting a bribe and threatened to put the video on the internet to expose him. All over 200 Baht. The cops then arrested the German and my Brother in law.  It took one phone call for the police to not only release everybody but to leave them with an apology. No money changed hands. My brother in law offered to still pay the fine but they were too scared to accept it. That is the only single instance my wife has used this contact. This has not escalated to the point where this is required and we are not going to make that escalation ourselves at this point. We also want to be seen as taking care of our own problems as much as possible. You keep a card like that in your back-pocket for REAL emergencies.

 

Sorry but kind of parents are you? You using your "special influence" for a useless brother in-law who can defend himself as an adult but won't do anything for your daughter who was SEXUALLY assaulted and is scarred for life?

 

What if someone attacks your family in front of you? Will go to AN and ask for advise or wait for lawyers or even the RTP to help you? In my eyes you are not a man. 

[richard_smith237]

21 minutes ago, Dnyy said:

 

Sorry but kind of parents are you? You using your "special influence" for a useless brother in-law who can defend himself as an adult but won't do anything for your daughter who was SEXUALLY assaulted and is scarred for life?

 

What if someone attacks your family in front of you? Will go to AN and ask for advise or wait for lawyers or even the RTP to help you? In my eyes you are not a man. 

 

Cheap-shot...    

 

Op has already explained why...  that 'special influence' remains an option if the school do not respond to this issue appropriately, which IMO is nothing less than expulsion from the school for the Boy(s) involved in this sexual assault.

 

Op needs to have legal charges against the school prepared and ready to present in case the school tries to take a soft approach - Op needs to make it very clear, nothing other than an expulsion will be acceptable in such a case.

 

 

 

 

[pedro01]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Cheap-shot...    

 

Op has already explained why...  that 'special influence' remains an option if the school do not respond to this issue appropriately, which IMO is nothing less than expulsion from the school for the Boy(s) involved in this sexual assault.

 

Op needs to have legal charges against the school prepared and ready to present in case the school tries to take a soft approach - Op needs to make it very clear, nothing other than an expulsion will be acceptable in such a case.

 

 

 

Thanks - but you shouldn't feed those trolls!

 

I'll add to it though - passing something to an influential figure is the EXACT OPPOSITE of doing something yourself!

 

It would also send a pretty dismal message to my daughter.

[theblether]

2 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

 

Thanks - but you shouldn't feed those trolls!

 

I'll add to it though - passing something to an influential figure is the EXACT OPPOSITE of doing something yourself!

 

It would also send a pretty dismal message to my daughter.

 

Too late, you've already sent that message. 

 

Feel free to explain to me and forum members why you wouldn't bring someone in with "special influence" to assist your distraught daughter who has been repeatedly sexually assaulted by a repeat and habitual offender. 

 

Once again, I wish your daughter all the best but remind me, this is not the first time this has happened? Why didn't you sort it out the first time round? 

[Tropicalevo]

4 hours ago, pedro01 said:

OK - so just to confirm - this is an English International School - not a Thai school. All teachers and headmaster are Western. The admin board is Thai. As I understand it, the owner is Indian - I could be wrong about that. 

 

My daughter came back yesterday. She's distraught. She is putting on a brave face. She does not want to go back to school for a couple of reasons. First - because she fears the friends of the boys that attacked her. Second because she fears one particular boy. This is her choice and I would not force her to go back. We are just spending time with her and spoiling her. 

 

My daughter is 14 and so are the boys. And we all know about the age of criminal responsibility here. Still - there are Juvenile courts here and I have spent time in them. I have seen errant kids up in front of those judges and it sure helped wipe the smiles off a lot of faces. 

 

The boys parents had to collect them from the school trip the day after it occurred. We spent a lot of time on the phone with our daughter, who insisted on staying the additional night of the school trip to spend time with friends. She's 14 - her choice. She did regret that. The friends of the boys sent home were passively-aggressively hostile towards her after she reported the event. And therein lies one issue with the school in my opinion. For kids to blame a victim en-masse for reporting an assault to me seems to imply a culture. Surely the other boys should have been revolted by their friends behavior?

 

None of the boys will be expelled. One boy (on the schools football team) has now assaulted my daughter 3 times. He has assaulted other girls who have not come forward and reported it as they are scared of the repercussions. He is not being expelled, he is being suspended. As far as I know - he will still be on the football team and be rewarded with trips around Thailand and to neighboring countries to play matches. I cannot absolutely confirm this - but it is what the teachers told my daughter - so it's second hand. The school has not informed me of any punishments. The boy that has committed the most assaults has been told he must distance himself 2 meters from my daughter at all times - but considering he feels it's ok to sexually assault a girl, why would he follow this rule?

 

On the other hand - my daughter (who was honor student last year), loves her teachers, she loves her friends, she is doing amazingly academically - and I LOVE the school for that. My son went there and is now in year 3 of University and sitting on a GPA of 4.0 - and he has learning difficulties. Why should she have to leave?

 

4 parents are Thai and one is foreign. I am not sure who is richer than who at the school - nor do I really care. We don't sit at the school gates swinging our d**** around. 

 

I have lodged a formal complaint with the school - which according to their complaints procedure - will bring in teachers and a headmaster from another international school to make a decision. The school has confirmed that the complaints procedure has started. Two teachers were in the room when my daughter was attacked at the "disco", teachers were also supervising when she was assaulted in the pool. 

 

The headmaster at the school has also agreed to a sit down in the week with their lawyer and one of the Thai members of the school board. This is a part of the complaints procedure (well, them bringing a lawyer and a member of the admin board isn't) - so I am sure I have the schools attention. Note also that the school has never tried to hide or deny any of the attacks. They are on school records and I have numerous emails. 

 

I contacted two of the fathers already - I can't say anything about that at this point. Other than neither of them are going to shoot me.

 

As for bringing in influential people. It's a possibility - friends of the wife - but you don't call on favors like that in anything but extreme cases. My brother in law was arrested recently. He drives a van and got pulled over on the usual fake charges. He was taking a group of Germans to golf and one got out the car and started taking video of the cop accepting a bribe and threatened to put the video on the internet to expose him. All over 200 Baht. The cops then arrested the German and my Brother in law.  It took one phone call for the police to not only release everybody but to leave them with an apology. No money changed hands. My brother in law offered to still pay the fine but they were too scared to accept it. That is the only single instance my wife has used this contact. This has not escalated to the point where this is required and we are not going to make that escalation ourselves at this point. We also want to be seen as taking care of our own problems as much as possible. You keep a card like that in your back-pocket for REAL emergencies.

 

The boys have sent texts to my daughter - she has not read them and she doesn't want to. We know they are apologies because they then asked Zoe's friends to tell her to read the messages. 

 

We have a meeting booked with our lawyer on Monday. I am not sure when I'll meet with the school as I want my lawyer present for that - and she's normally pretty busy.

Just to say that I am sorry  to hear about your daughter's problems.

You seem to be level headed and in control.

Good luck to you and especially good luck to your daughter.

 

[kwak250]

On 5/30/2024 at 2:57 PM, stoner said:

 

that might not be the best thing for the child. more attention and spotlight during this already stressful time might add to the trauma. 

For a stoner this guy has some very useful thoughts 
Well done and don't forget to pass it on.

[EdrigoSalvadore]

Boys and girls should be in separate schools. Definitely the best solution.

[pedro01]

31 minutes ago, theblether said:

 

Too late, you've already sent that message. 

 

Feel free to explain to me and forum members why you wouldn't bring someone in with "special influence" to assist your distraught daughter who has been repeatedly sexually assaulted by a repeat and habitual offender. 

 

 

You mean why would I fight my own battles? I dunno - I think it's to do with those 2 round things between my legs. 

 

One of the things that's been pointed out a lot here is that the parents of the boys themselves may be rich and influential. This is true - it's an international school - the parents are not poor.

 

There is a flip-side to that. The parents of the assaulted girls are equally likely to be rich and influential. 3 sets of Thai parents have this weekend found out that their daughters have been assaulted at school. 

 

31 minutes ago, theblether said:

 

Once again, I wish your daughter all the best but remind me, this is not the first time this has happened? Why didn't you sort it out the first time round? 

 

What do you mean by "sort it out"? This isn't the wild west - I'm not gonna have a 14 year old boy kneecapped am I? FFS.

 

When my daughter was assaulted at school - the boys were suspended. I did not reach out to other parents at the time as the school gave me no indication the boys had done it before. So - we thought it WAS sorted out the first time - and of course - at the time we gave allowances for the fact the offenders were just 13. 

 

I hadn't imagined for a second it might be so widespread. So last time - reported to school, they punished the boys and I thought that would be the end of it. Had I been given more information - I would obviously not let it go.

Edited June 1 by pedro01

[stoner]

19 minutes ago, kwak250 said:

For a stoner this guy has some very useful thoughts 
Well done and don't forget to pass it on.

 

:) always pass. 

[pedro01]

5 minutes ago, stoner said:

 

🙂 always pass. 

 

Clockwise or counter?

[Dnyy]

47 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

 

Thanks - but you shouldn't feed those trolls!

 

I'll add to it though - passing something to an influential figure is the EXACT OPPOSITE of doing something yourself!

 

It would also send a pretty dismal message to my daughter.

 

I'm not a troll. You are just weak and need others from a forum to help you on something this serious. What message are you sending to your daughter now? Daddy is scared and is waiting for other adults to step in. Typical Westerner behavior.

[stoner]

2 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

 

Clockwise or counter?

 

Depends....which side you sitting on.