Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, theblether said:

 

All people need to know is that the requirement for mandatory insurance was sprung out of the blue on 0-A holders, with some people given as little as one months' notice to comply. 

 

And the vast majority of people using the 800,000 baht method are not 0-A holders and have their cash deposited in a Thai bank.  

 

 

 

 

Yeah there have been times that immigration has sprung harsh surprises without reasonable grace periods. 

 

That is why I recommend that everyone has a plan B outside of Thailand.

[Enzian]

2 hours ago, CallumWK said:

FCD's are accepted s proof of funds by Thai immigration

For the record: as an official policy yes. And my FCD dollar account worked for me for 2 or 3 years till I got the same old IO gal two years in a row who got tired of checking with my bank that my FCD account was real and gave me an ultimatum: I'm going to put this visa in your passport and you are going to walk out of this cubicle and downstairs and move all those dollars into your (til then minimal) Thai baht account, and you better do it. So I did, at 33/dollar, and don't particularly regret it since I got deposit insurance by doing so. What was bad was when they stopped the affidavit method, but there was a personal upside to that which I don't need to go into. The big picture is that IOs will always differ. Sorry so long.

[Mike Teavee]

On 6/17/2024 at 3:44 PM, John Drake said:

Solve the problem? Raise the age for the retirement visa and extensions to the same age as Thai retirement age, which is 60. 

Great so I leave the 800k in the bank all year round, am not in a motorcycle gang (don't even ride one), even have Health Insurance & you want me to be kicked out of Thailand (where I've lived for the past 5 years, had a Non-IMM O for 7) just because I'm only 58? 

 

Gee Thanks

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

Great so I leave the 800k in the bank all year round, am not in a motorcycle gang (don't even ride one), even have Health Insurance & you want me to be kicked out of Thailand (where I've lived for the past 5 years, had a Non-IMM O for 7) just because I'm only 58? 

 

Gee Thanks

Grandfathered of course, or more likely in your case, uncled or similar. 🙂

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Grandfathered of course, or more likely in your case, uncled or similar. 🙂

That's what I would hope for any changes to anybody's Visas, it's just wrong to change the requirements & pull the rug from under somebody's feet when they've been settled here for years, but extensions were specifically included in the post so seem to be saying that they don't believe people should be Grandfathered in. 

 

 

  

 

[Presnock]

On 6/15/2024 at 10:22 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thailand is going down a path that clearly indicates that this is not a country that western people with money/income from home should retire to in SEAsia. Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia are also tax resident income tax systems, and they all state that anyone living in the country 180-183 days is a tax resident - but they have made allowances for retired/married Expats. Malaysia has specifically excluded the Pensions of Expats and they also excluded any income that has been subjected to the taxation system of the origin country (whether tax applied or not).  Philippines and Indonesia (P and I) have not changed their existing tax codes, because they both state that an Alien/Foreigner only pays income tax on revenue earned/made in their country, and both state that any income earned overseas by an Alien/Foreigner, whether brought into their country or not, is not taxable.  All three of those other countries have implemented the global taxation system OECD etc. but they have all either made allowances for Aliens/Foreigners, and/or they have kept those rules which exclude them from being taxed for any overseas incomes.

 

Thailand's existing taxation code does allow for the taxation of the overseas income of Aliens/Foreigners when remitted into Thailand. In the past Thailand did not apply this in practice - as with many things - but it looks like they now will be.  Thailand is looking to change their tax code in a year or two (maybe needs a change in the Act, but maybe not) such that all income of Aliens/Foreigners is taxable on a global basis, whether remitted to Thailand or not. 

 

All those things mean Thailand is not an ideal country in which to retire - from the perspective of income taxes.  Plus of course the Immigration and Visa issues are all bad, and far more onerous than all the other countries, except Vietnam. But Thailand is a great country with many good things that make retirement great - but they are no longer the ideal location to retire. If I did not have a Thai wife I would be visiting here for under 180 days each year - probably live in Philippines and enjoy Thailand as a holiday destination. If the poo hits the fan and this all goes pearshaped, then we will probably move there - the wife does not want to pay those corrupt f******** any of my money. 

On top of the tax issue, the pollution problem rather being resolved just seems to be getting worse and the "burning season" seems to me be be getting longer and longer.  WIfe "bought" a house in CM 10 years ago.  We both have loved the life in CM except during that burning season and have been discusing travelling during that time.  This year since daughter is in college in BKK we have rented a house here in BKK and I note that the pollution is over the healthy limit almost daily - especially during that burning season and pollution coming from surrounding countries besides the Sugar cane burning, corn field waste and rice field waste continues making the air more and more filthy.  Since it affects the residents of all the SEA countries, I am not very confident that they will ever be able to FIX this problem.  So in line with the tax resident bit of 180 days, we will most likely start travelling out of Thailand and maybe to the other SEA countries that are more favorable to our finances and the air pollution is less impacting that country.  I am sure that the PI with 7000+islands must have some pollution free areas during the burning season in SEA.  I lived in the PI for 6 years and don't remember a lot of pollution except Manila areas so

with the option to stay there for 6 months or so might turn out to be a good thing for the PI and the expats getting of here too.  Good luck to all.

[Presnock]

On 6/17/2024 at 6:06 AM, Mike Teavee said:

I 100% agree, what they did to existing Non-IMM OA holders about Health insurance was shocking & IIRC Phuket refused to implement it so NON-IMM OA holders there do not need to show Health Insurance when extending. 

 

Last time they uprated the financial requirements (twice) they "Grandfathered In" people who have been on the exact same Visa for 4 years, if they do change anything, let's hope they just "Grandfather In" everybody who already has a Visa.

 

Well, unless the govt changesl completely, and they find some money for the coffers, then I would bet on drastic financial changes (not for the good of the ex-pats either) for new and/or old retirees.  When this govt starts the changes, they seem to steamroll depending on where the pressure is coming from.  Right now seeing a govt out of money we can easily note their panic in finding some by any means and expats are one of the easiest targets as we can either shell out more or leave - nothing in between.  I am hoping though that not everything changes in relation to the finance side as I feel too that whatever is coming might not affect me at all nor many of my fellow ex-pats.  Good luck to all of us.

[Presnock]

On 6/17/2024 at 8:56 AM, Ben Zioner said:

To proceed with expatriation without a proper health was reckless 20 years ago just as it is today.  And should Thailand bear the burden of healthcare for a population of uninsured Geezers?  The least the Government can do will be make sure that all new arrivals have a proper long term health cover. Now what to do with the people who thought they were entitled to quality, low cost health care in Thailand? I have no idea, but the Thai authorities would have to admit that have been guilty of too much leniency with these visas issued in the past.

Yeah, I am approaching 80...not quite yet but the date of acquisition on my health insurance (through US govt) is 1996, retired with it in 2005, added wife and daughter later, so my costs are fairly high for that insurance and continues to climb every year but as mentioned by others the older we get most likely health problems increase too and some of those could wipe out a rich person.  Fortunately, too for me, my insurer covers any of our health problems even here in Thailand.  I am glad that I did keep it upon retirement, and yeah many years I was paying only for myself as local costs for anything were fairly cheap in comparison and then eventually went the family route.  COVID, if in the US would have been covered by the govt for the most part - here 500 baht local COVID insurance included hospital stays and visits to the doctor/medicines - hard to beat that 500 baht even compared to the US freebies in my opinion.  But if any changes to retirement visas and insurance, you can bet that the local insurers will try to find a way for the expats to HAVE to us a local insurer too.  But, like all the other unknown plans of this govt or the next, TIT and we might be worrying about NOTHING really bad to happen.  Good Luck!

[Presnock]

On 6/17/2024 at 9:15 AM, JimGant said:

Actually, not true. To extend for retirement off of a Non Imm O-A -- you still needed to meet the medical insurance requirement -- unlike extending off of a Non Imm O. And they would only accept one of the designated Thai insurance companies. Bummer. LTR visas, however, tho' requiring health insurance, would accept my US govt Tricare insurance. Thus, a main reason for switching.

The BOI also will accept some foreign insurance companies that are willing to spell out exactily the coverage that the BOI needs for approval.  Mine happens to be within the US govt insurance approved companies and I am sure other countries probably have some insurers that might be willing to cover one in Thailand at the required amounts.

[John Drake]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Great so I leave the 800k in the bank all year round, am not in a motorcycle gang (don't even ride one), even have Health Insurance & you want me to be kicked out of Thailand (where I've lived for the past 5 years, had a Non-IMM O for 7) just because I'm only 58? 

 

Gee Thanks

 

In your reply you deleted most of my comment and left in the specific segment about raising the retirement age for extensions to match the Thai retirement age. I've seen a lot of schadenfreude about how these changes would impact the above 60s or 65s. So I just thought I would put something out to show how easily the under 60s could be affected. Do I want that? No. Since right before the election, when so many people in this forum were celebrating Prayuth's defeat or upcoming defeat, I constantly remarked that he had been good for those of us on retirement visas and that the Shins had a history of going after us. Now, that's what is playing out. All I ever wanted, and kept posting to the forum, was for things at immigration not to change. But you don't need to go far back in these comments or in other topics to see people jumping on mandatory insurance as a good change. That despite the fact that some people will either be priced out of it or unable to be covered. Or there might be a requirement to buy what amounts to worthless Thai insurance. Or that excluding "pre-existing conditions" might make anybody's expensive policy near worthless and might, indeed, reduce their ability to pay for medical treatment, as costs they have in their bank now dedicated to treatment would be needed to pay for the worthless policies. And of course everyone who has consistently used the 800K in the bank method over many years (let's say until at least when Covid started, so 2020) should be allowed to continue to extend under the conditions they first used. After all, the 800K I put into the bank to cover my first retirement extension (after retiring from Mahidol) ten years ago was worth a lot more than 800K in today's inflated currency. That should be part of the consideration (along with the banks only insuring deposits to 1 million). So, no, I don't want you kicked off your extension. I just want them to leave us alone.

[Confuscious]

Today, I received a letter from my bank in Belgium with a copy of the information they exchanged with the tax department in Thailand in the "Automatic Exchange of Financial Information" program.
I can not publish a scan of the letter as it is in Dutch and attachements are accepted only in English.
Short, my bank in Belgium gave the IRS in Thailand a COMPLETE OVERVIEW of the details of my account in Belgium, including the revenues and total saldo on December 31, 2023.

Link to https://web-archive.oecd.org/2016-01-27/238340-Automatic-Exchange-Financial-Account-Information-Brief.pdf

As far as I have been following this thread, Thailand would only tax residents based on the Income/transferred money into Thailand.
Not the amount of money in the bank account abroad.
Am I missing something here?
Will Thailand claim Tax on money that is in my Savings account since 45 years?

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, John Drake said:

 

In your reply you deleted the most of my comment and left in the specific segment about raising retirement age for extensions to match the Thai retirement age. I've seen a lot of schadenfreude about how these changes would impact the above 60s or 65s. So I just thought I would put something out to show how easily the under 60s could be affected. Do I want that? No. Since right before the election, when so many people in this forum were celebrating Prayuth's defeat or upcoming defeat, I constantly remarked that he had been good for those of us on retirement visas and that the Shins had a history of going after us. Now, that's what is playing out. All I ever wanted, and kept posting to the forum, was for things at immigration not to change. But you don't need to go far back in these comments or in other topics to see people jumping on mandatory insurance as a good change. That despite the fact that some people will either be priced out of it or unable to be covered. Or there might be a requirement to buy what amounts to worthless Thai insurance. Or that excluding "pre-existing conditions" might make anybody's expensive policy near worthless and might, indeed, reduce their ability to pay for medical treatment, as costs they have in their bank now dedicated to treatment would be needed to pay for the worthless policies. And of course everyone who has consistently used the 800K in the bank method over many years (let's say until at least when Covid started, so 2020) should be allowed to continue to extend under the conditions they first used. After all, the 800K I put into the bank to cover my first retirement extension (after retiring from Mahidol) ten years ago was worth a lot more than 800K in today's inflated currency. That should be part of the consideration (along with the banks only insuring deposits to 1 million). So, no, I don't want you kicked off your extension. I just want them to leave us alone.

 

Well said & I agree with you about the schadenfreude that sometimes comes out on these threads when it comes to people potentially losing their homes due to a change in their Visa/Extension requirements.   I wouldn't want anybody to lose their ability to live in Thailand because the rules under which they originally moved here have changed so think everybody should be Grandfathered In on their existing visa conditions. 

 

If they were to change the requirements for new Visas then I would have some sympathy for guys who have been waiting to get on the Non-IMM O "Treadmill" (I know from experience the last couple of years can drag!!!) but would have much more sympathy for a 75 year old that's been here for decades suddenly being told to get health insurance or get out. 

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, Confuscious said:

Today, I received a letter from my bank in Belgium with a copy of the information they exchanged with the tax department in Thailand in the "Automatic Exchange of Financial Information" program.
I can not publish a scan of the letter as it is in Dutch and attachements are accepted only in English.
Short, my bank in Belgium gave the IRS in Thailand a COMPLETE OVERVIEW of the details of my account in Belgium, including the revenues and total saldo on December 31, 2023.

Link to https://web-archive.oecd.org/2016-01-27/238340-Automatic-Exchange-Financial-Account-Information-Brief.pdf

As far as I have been following this thread, Thailand would only tax residents based on the Income/transferred money into Thailand.
Not the amount of money in the bank account abroad.
Am I missing something here?
Will Thailand claim Tax on money that is in my Savings account since 45 years?

I suspect the exchange between your Bank & Thailand is part of CRS (Common Reporting Standards) part of OECD that Thailand's signed up for, but I'm curious, does your Bank know that you live in Thailand & have you registered your Thai Tax Identification Number with them? 

 

 

No, any savings you had prior to 1/1/2024 can be remitted to Thailand free of Tax. 

[Confuscious]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I suspect the exchange between your Bank & Thailand is part of CRS (Common Reporting Standards) part of OECD that Thailand's signed up for, but I'm curious, does your Bank know that you live in Thailand & have you registered your Thai Tax Identification Number with them? 

 

 

No, any savings you had prior to 1/1/2024 can be remitted to Thailand free of Tax. 

Yes, the report os part of the exchange between my bank in Belgium and the Thai IRS.

Yes, my bank has my residence address since 2002, date at which I quit my residence in Belgium and filed my residence at the Embassy in Thailand (Model 8 formular).
m
I have not registered a Thai Tax ID-number (was rejected as published in this forum).
 

My savings/current bank account only shows a total saldo in my account.
The saldo is not specified year by year.
How can that decide what was there before 2024 and after 2023/
Crazzy

[JimGant]

35 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

As far as I have been following this thread, Thailand would only tax residents based on the Income/transferred money into Thailand.

That's probably going to become history, because under the new CRS and FATCA reporting rules -- which don't address remittances -- it will be a lot easier for Thai RD authorities to identify foreign income -- and tax accordingly, without the added implement of needing to be remitted. That's why the remittance rule is probably going to be history.

 

35 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

Will Thailand claim Tax on money that is in my Savings account since 45 years?

Monies in an account, after the latest tax year, will be considered after tax (savings), and thus not subject to taxation. Thailand is looking to join the rest of the world, which taxes only current year income, regardless of remitances (with the some very minor exceptions, of no real note).

[Confuscious]

10 minutes ago, JimGant said:

That's probably going to become history, because under the new CRS and FATCA reporting rules -- which don't address remittances -- it will be a lot easier for Thai RD authorities to identify foreign income -- and tax accordingly, without the added implement of needing to be remitted. That's why the remittance rule is probably going to be history.

 

So, Thailand will refer to the income in your bank account for their taxes claim?
Your income, but also every amount that is put in your bank account as a gift, donation, etc.?
Crazy
 

10 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Monies in an account, after the latest tax year, will be considered after tax (savings), and thus not subject to taxation. Thailand is looking to join the rest of the world, which taxes only current year income, regardless of remitances (with the exception of some very minor exceptions, of no real note).

The Belgian tax rule is that taxes are levied on the PREVIOUS YEAR.
So, the due taxes of 2024 calculation is based on the revenues of 2023 (a whole year).

PS.: The bank does not have information about how much tax was already paid.
Example: The bank account shows a revenue of "x Eur" monthly, but don't show that "y Eur" tax was paid on the "x Eur" revenue.
 

[JimGant]

36 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

So, Thailand will refer to the income in your bank account for their taxes claim?
Your income, but also every amount that is put in your bank account as a gift, donation, etc.?
Crazy

I would imagine the algorithms used by CRS and FATCA reporting are sophisticated enough to discern income from other cash flows. Otherwise, these reporting systems would be worthless.

 

38 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

The Belgian tax rule is that taxes are levied on the PREVIOUS YEAR.

I said tax year, not current year.

[Confuscious]

34 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I would imagine the algorithms used by CRS and FATCA reporting are sophisticated enough to discern income from other cash flows. Otherwise, these reporting systems would be worthless.

 

I said tax year, not current year.

 

This is getting crazy.
Better leaving Thailand and don't stay here longer that 179 days.
That's what they want, or not?

[John Drake]

Just now, Confuscious said:

 

This is getting crazy.
Better leaving Thailand and don't stay here longer that 179 days.
That's what they want, or not?

 

Either that, or don't have anything more complicated than US social security and maybe a simple annuity. 

[Mike Lister]

What's getting crazy is the assumption and hysteria  by people who haven't done their homework and are assuming a worst case scenario without understanding exactly what the numbers are.

[redwood1]

Folks I will tell you what the real problem is...

 

Thailand needs to look up the meaning of the word retirement in the dictionary...

 

Withdrawal from one's occupation or position, especially upon reaching a certain age. b. The age at which one withdraws from work and lives off their savings and or a pension....

EXP... I'm looking forward to having and living a peaceful retirement in the last years of my life.... 

 

Thailand changing visa requirements at the drop of a hat as they love to do .....Is very far from adding peace to expats retirement...

 

After you retire you only have so many years left on this Earth.....And Thailand seems determined to make sure retired expats last years are in a state of visa chaos....

 

Not to mention how wrong it is to even suggest trying extract tax money from retired non working folks , most who live off fixed incomes....

 

Thailand a retirement destination ???

 

 

[Confuscious]

50 minutes ago, John Drake said:

 

Either that, or don't have anything more complicated than US social security and maybe a simple annuity. 

A few members of this forum that I know personal left Thailand already.

And a member who returned last week with his wife from the vs is now selling his house and all his belongings and will go back to the USA 

Count me in..  

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, Confuscious said:

Today, I received a letter from my bank in Belgium with a copy of the information they exchanged with the tax department in Thailand in the "Automatic Exchange of Financial Information" program.
I can not publish a scan of the letter as it is in Dutch and attachements are accepted only in English.
Short, my bank in Belgium gave the IRS in Thailand a COMPLETE OVERVIEW of the details of my account in Belgium, including the revenues and total saldo on December 31, 2023.

Link to https://web-archive.oecd.org/2016-01-27/238340-Automatic-Exchange-Financial-Account-Information-Brief.pdf

As far as I have been following this thread, Thailand would only tax residents based on the Income/transferred money into Thailand.
Not the amount of money in the bank account abroad.
Am I missing something here?
Will Thailand claim Tax on money that is in my Savings account since 45 years?

Quite the letter and shows how diligently they plan to look for people that are filing necessary tax forms nor paying their fair share - exactly what they called it in the letter.  I notice too that they are really interested in people acurately noting thier living address and updating if necessary to the point where if there is any question multiple jurisdictions could claim the taxes.  After the July 2023 OECD meeting and signatories there must be even more details that we can access as banks do in fact start to advise us on what they interpret is necessary in following the guidelines.  There is also details on FACTA and CRS in following with OECD search for people's finance details.  I didn't read all of the above data in the overview but it is extensive and for you finance wizards, it might help all if you could check it out and analyze it a put it in clear language for us to better understand how they are going after our data and what the banks here should be prepared for.  GOOD LUCK TO ALL 

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

What's getting crazy is the assumption and hysteria  by people who haven't done their homework and are assuming a worst case scenario without understanding exactly what the numbers are.

Yeah, you got that right!  Fortunately my finances are relatively simple and I am not worrying at all.  If Thailand does go crazy and wipes the slate completely clean and starts over  with all new instructions including wiping LTR tax info, DTA treaties deleted and to start anew with taxes on everything everywhere then I might start THINKING about abandoning this great life here.  To make things easier for my family, maybe just move to the states so their future might be better - though that would depend where there too plus the hassle and cost of the move.  Anyway, everyone needs to continue waiting so relax unless you are leaving soonest!  Good luck

[theblether]

24 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Folks I will tell you what the real problem is...

 

Thailand needs to look up the meaning of the word retirement in the dictionary...

 

Withdrawal from one's occupation or position, especially upon reaching a certain age. b. The age at which one withdraws from work and lives off their savings and or a pension....

EXP... I'm looking forward to having and living a peaceful retirement in the last years of my life.... 

 

Thailand changing visa requirements at the drop of a hat as they love to do .....Is very far from adding peace to expats retirement...

 

After you retire you only have so many years left on this Earth.....And Thailand seems determined to make sure retired expats last years are in a state of visa chaos....

 

Not to mention how wrong it is to even suggest trying extract tax money from retired non working folks , most who live off fixed incomes....

 

Thailand a retirement destination ???

 

 

 

I agree with the broad sentiment of your comment but here's the brutal truth. Successive Thai governments have targeted long-stay in the country. 

 

The review that's coming up is long, long overdue and I regard this tax situation as secondary for a simple reason. A lot of you commenting on this thread quite simply won't be in Thailand if the review follows recent patterns. 

 

Some of you will leave because you won't qualify to stay. Others, and possibly the majority, will leave because they are sick of the persecution, even if they qualify to stay. Let me be clear - I don't know what's coming down the line, however, it will be astonishing if there is not a new mandatory insurance policy. 

 

There will be ways around it, but not at zero cost. Some of you will be forced to purchase a worthless "levy policy." Even the levy policies have limitations. 

 

However, the word of the day is PERSECUTION. The last couple of times that expatriates left in waves wasn't so much cost increases, it was the interference in regular lifestyles. The damage done by the TM30 DEBACLE was unbelievable. People rightly felt persecuted for having the cheek to travel around the country on vacations. You were under threat of LEGAL PENALTY if you failed to report to the TM 30 office within 24 hours of returning to your home province. 

 

This is not the Thailand we signed up for, and while that policy has been effectively withdrawn, the PERSECUTORY UNDERTONE has remained, including the scandalous springing of mandatory insurance onto O-A retirement visa holders. 

 

This taxation proposal is just part of a long litany of bad news for retirees. Get ready for a mass exodus, and if you are on the edge of purchasing a condo or making some other major financial investment into the country, I suggest you wait as what is coming down the line IMMINENTLY may also see you heading for the airport.  

[Jinxed1]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I suspect the exchange between your Bank & Thailand is part of CRS (Common Reporting Standards) part of OECD that Thailand's signed up for, but I'm curious, does your Bank know that you live in Thailand & have you registered your Thai Tax Identification Number with them? 

 

 

No, any savings you had prior to 1/1/2024 can be remitted to Thailand free of Tax. 

is that still true if this new rule passes?

[Mike Teavee]

5 minutes ago, Jinxed1 said:

is that still true if this new rule passes?

I believe so, highly unlikely they would retroactively tax Global Income as laws tend to apply from a certain point forward. 
 

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, Jinxed1 said:

is that still true if this new rule passes?

Yes, I believe so

[DrJack54]

Flame post and reply removed 

[Captain Flack]

Some continued bickering posts removed. Please stay on topic, not each other.

 

Polite reminder of rule 12. You will not use the report button in an attempt to score points against other members.