Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Mike Teavee]

13 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Nope. For those UK folks subject to remittance tax, here's what is said about using a UK issued credit card to make purchases, either in the UK, or abroad.

 

So, only if you pay off your UK credit card bill with foreign source income or gains, will it be considered a taxable remittance. Pay it off from your UK bank -- no remittance tax.

 

Thus, only if I pay off my US credit card bill with, say, a check from my Bangkok Bank account -- or any other foreign source money, will the credit card charges being paid off be considered the equivalent of remitted foreign source income (using the UK example, which is the only one I can find).

 

So, when I purchase something in Thailand with my US credit card -- and pay it off from my US checking account -- this is not the equivalent of treating the purchase value as a marker for foreign source remitted income. Even if the money I pay it off with would be considered assessable foreign source income -- had it been remitted to Thailand to make that purchase in lieu of my credit card.

 

Thus, a credit card loan to buy a hamburger in Bangkok is treated the same as a bank loan to buy a condo in Bangkok. Both are loans, and both are paid back from a US source -- and are thus not treated as the equivalent of foreign source remitted income.

 

 

From your link, It's this part that I believe matters... 

 

Credit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Where an overseas credit card is used in the UK, the cardholder is effectively authorising the credit card company to pay the bill for the goods or service in just the same way as if they had instructed the bank to make a payment directly to the person supplying the goods or services.

 

The terms of credit card agreements may differ as to the moment of ‘indebtedness’ between the cardholder and the credit card company. However, the use of the credit card to pay for goods used or received in the UK, or services provided in the UK will create a debt.

 

The use of the individual’s untaxed foreign income or gains to pay the credit card company in respect of the debt will be a taxable remittance.

 

 

So If you switch Thailand for the UK then I am using an overseas credit card (from UK) in Thailand & authorising the overseas/UK credit card company to pay the bill for the goods or service & if I pay that using cash in the UK would be taxable remittance in Thailand IF they applied the same rules. 

 

 

Edited Monday at 04:25 AM by Mike Teavee

[Mike Lister]

15 minutes ago, firewight said:

 

In this video a tax lawyer states credit card purchases and ATM withdrawals are not taxable as they are not hitting your personal Thai bank account...
 

 

 

I don't believe that.

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

we will prob get the TRD consideration of this subject by 2 January 2025 as 1 Jan is a national holiday and all will be partying or tired from that same thiing as they finally have the final version out!

Ok I post the link. Listen from 1:29, the answer from RD is in english. 

Edited Monday at 04:31 AM by Ben Zioner

[Mike Teavee]

9 minutes ago, firewight said:

In this video a tax lawyer states credit card purchases and ATM withdrawals are not taxable as they are not hitting your personal Thai bank account...

Again, he's not a Tax Lawyer (Lawyer is a protected profession in Thailand so foreigners cannot be Lawyers) & I personally think he's very wrong.

 

What I think he means is you won't get caught doing it (ATM transactions are not CRS reported, whereas I'm pretty sure any remittances sent to your Thai bank account will be shared with TRD) but that is not the same as saying it's not remitted income if you get audited.

 

If I brought £50,000 in cash into Thailand (reported to Immigration at both ends) & changed it for THB at the money changers according to him that wouldn't be money remitted to Thailand but I think very few people would agree with him (I've literally walked the money in so how can it not be remitted). 

 

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't believe that.

I do.

[Yellowtail]

Do these "tax lawyers" read Thai fluently? If not, why would anyone have any faith in what they say? 

 

The translations provided (unless something has changed) are for convenience only, and not legally arguable. What the translation says does not matter, only the original text matters legally. 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I do.

You would!

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Again, he's not a Tax Lawyer (Lawyer is a protected profession in Thailand so foreigners cannot be Lawyers) & I personally think he's very wrong.

 

What I think he means is you won't get caught doing it (ATM transactions are not CRS reported, whereas I'm pretty sure any remittances sent to your Thai bank account will be shared with TRD) but that is not the same as saying it's not remitted income if you get audited.

 

If I brought £50,000 in cash into Thailand (reported to Immigration at both ends) & changed it for THB at the money changers according to him that wouldn't be money remitted to Thailand but I think very few people would agree with him (I've literally walked the money in so how can it not be remitted). \

You are wrong - twice.

 

ATM transactions are not reportable - because they do not involve a foreign transaction to a foreign bank account. 

When a foreign country receives transaction reports, they do not get advised every transaction of every person.

They only get advised of foreign transfers to a bank account - not payments made using a credit/debit card. 

You could be in Australia paying for your holiday to Thailand - TRD does not get information.

There is no transaction record of ATM withdrawals with the Thai bank to report to TRD. 

 

He did not state that at all regarding bringing cash into Thailand - which is definitely taxable.

When you do so you are supposed to declare it - plus when you exchange it they will record your Passport.

Yes the chances of being 'caught' are slim, but it is definitely not how to avoid income taxes.

However, having said that I know of several Thais that regularly travel to Thailand with cash and give it to the family. 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You would!

You wouldn't !!

[lordgrinz]

12 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Again, he's not a Tax Lawyer (Lawyer is a protected profession in Thailand so foreigners cannot be Lawyers) & I personally think he's very wrong.

 

What I think he means is you won't get caught doing it (ATM transactions are not CRS reported, whereas I'm pretty sure any remittances sent to your Thai bank account will be shared with TRD) but that is not the same as saying it's not remitted income if you get audited.

 

If I brought £50,000 in cash into Thailand (reported to Immigration at both ends) & changed it for THB at the money changers according to him that wouldn't be money remitted to Thailand but I think very few people would agree with him (I've literally walked the money in so how can it not be remitted). 

 

I'm wondering how Wise works into this with their Interest bearing Wise Account and Debit Card (USD Swept Program/FDIC 4.85%). Don't need the ATM withdrawals, but paying using the Debit Card feature would be nice, especially if it avoids taxes.

[Mike Teavee]

8 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You are wrong - twice.

 

ATM transactions are not reportable - because they do not involve a foreign transaction to a foreign bank account. 

When a foreign country receives transaction reports, they do not get advised every transaction of every person.

They only get advised of foreign transfers to a bank account - not payments made using a credit/debit card. 

You could be in Australia paying for your holiday to Thailand - TRD does not get information.

There is no transaction record of ATM withdrawals with the Thai bank to report to TRD. 

 

He did not state that at all regarding bringing cash into Thailand - which is definitely taxable.

When you do so you are supposed to declare it - plus when you exchange it they will record your Passport.

Yes the chances of being 'caught' are slim, but it is definitely not how to avoid income taxes.

However, having said that I know of several Thais that regularly travel to Thailand with cash and give it to the family. 

 

 

He basically says that "Only money sent to your Thai Bank account" is considered assessable income, me walking in with a pocket full of cash is not me sending money to my Thai Bank account.  [Queued it up for you, you're welcome]

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I completely agree with you that bringing cash into the country is remitting money but I also believe taking money out of an ATM is remitting money.

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 05:07 AM by Mike Teavee

[TroubleandGrumpy]

5 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

I'm wondering how Wise works into this with their Interest bearing Wise Account and Debit Card (USD Swept Program/FDIC 4.85%). Don't need the ATM withdrawals, but paying using the Debit Card feature would be nice, especially if it avoids taxes.

IMO they would work out well - if you dont mind the extra charges. Wise is basically a bank with holding and exchange powers.

 

I was also thinking of maybe using Western Union - who are not a bank - and who will pay you the cash at a branch. But when I think about it, the fact is that they will be keeping Passport details - and therefore the question is - will they be reporting to TRD all local payouts?   

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

He basically says that "Only money sent to your Thai Bank account" is considered assessable income, me walking in with a pocket full of cash is not me sending money to my Thai Bank account.  [Queued it up for you, you're welcome]

 

 

 

Very simple - having a bank account in Thailand and remitting funds into your bank account in Thailand.  What you do not realise (think) is that he did not say something like " There are no other ways to incur taxation liabilities in Thailand" (such as bringing in cash). What he is talking about is the remittances of money into Thailand (that are reported by the banks to TRD).  Simple.  Stop reading into what he said, what you think he means - listen. 

 

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Very simple - having a bank account in Thailand and remitting funds into your bank account in Thailand.  What you do not realise (think) is that he did not say something like " There are no other ways to incur taxation liabilities in Thailand" (such as bringing in cash). What he is talking about is the remittances of money into Thailand (that are reported by the banks to TRD).  Simple.  Stop reading into what he said, what you think he means - listen. 

 

He was asked a direct question about what would be considered "Repatriated Funds" & was definitive in his reply, what did I miss? 

 

He was also very clear that Debit/Credit card usage would not be considered "Repatriated Funds" & I think he's wrong, common sense says that if you take money from an Overseas account using an ATM in Thailand you're remitting that money.

[Mike Teavee]

9 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

IMO they would work out well - if you dont mind the extra charges. Wise is basically a bank with holding and exchange powers.

 

I was also thinking of maybe using Western Union - who are not a bank - and who will pay you the cash at a branch. But when I think about it, the fact is that they will be keeping Passport details - and therefore the question is - will they be reporting to TRD all local payouts?   

I'd lump WU in with the Exchange booths & assume that they're going to be reporting transactions to TRD. 

 

 

[realfunster]

38 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Again, he's not a Tax Lawyer (Lawyer is a protected profession in Thailand so foreigners cannot be Lawyers) & I personally think he's very wrong.

He is a lawyer, doubtful he is a tax specialist.

 

As they say, you’re not in Kansas anymore. Thailand where many things are grey and open to interpretation. I can assure you first hand there are many non-Thai lawyers working in Thailand from within multi-national law firms.

[Mike Lister]

The way in which the money is received in Thailand makes a difference as to whether it's assessable or not.......I never knew! 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

19 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

He was asked a direct question about what would be considered "Repatriated Funds" & was definitive in his reply, what did I miss? 

 

He was also very clear that Debit/Credit card usage would not be considered "Repatriated Funds" & I think he's wrong, common sense says that if you take money from an Overseas account using an ATM in Thailand you're remitting that money.

You are not listening Mike. He defined repatriated funds as reported to TRD in terms of money into a Thai bank account. He did not say there was no other ways to bring money into Thailand.  He was saying that ATM withdrawals would not be reported to TRD.  You are taking exact words and using them out of context.  I know what questions he was answering and what he meant - but videos often make things interpretable many ways. Yes Chris should have asked clarifying questions - a lot of times I would have done so and asked him "Did you mean ..........." 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

25 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I'd lump WU in with the Exchange booths & assume that they're going to be reporting transactions to TRD. 

 

Yes I agree - it may be not as 'trackable' as the bank transactions can be. But the records will be there - and you could be easily aught out if you go that path. 

[Mike Teavee]

9 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You are not listening Mike. He defined repatriated funds as reported to TRD in terms of money into a Thai bank account. He did not say there was no other ways to bring money into Thailand.  He was saying that ATM withdrawals would not be reported to TRD.  You are taking exact words and using them out of context.  I know what questions he was answering and what he meant - but videos often make things interpretable many ways. Yes Chris should have asked clarifying questions - a lot of times I would have done so and asked him "Did you mean ..........." 

We clearly have a different interpretation of what he said, I do admit that I tend to take things literally so could have misunderstood him (Seem to remember I got a similar impression from the 1st video).

 

I'm sure he's forgotten more about Tax than I will ever know, but on the subject of remitted income I'm going to stick with my understanding of what counts (Including Debit & Credit cards), I figure if I err on the side of caution I can't get bit if I'm wrong 🙂 

 

Edited Monday at 05:53 AM by Mike Teavee

[TroubleandGrumpy]

21 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The way in which the money is received in Thailand makes a difference as to whether it's assessable or not.......I never knew! 

We all learn something every day.  Did you watch Red Dwarf ??  It is always interesting how people reveal themselves to others.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

We all learn something every day.  Did you watch Red Dwarf ??  It is always interesting how people reveal themselves to others.

Off topic, the subject is taxation.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

So If you switch Thailand for the UK then I am using an overseas credit card (from UK) in Thailand & authorising the overseas/UK credit card company to pay the bill for the goods or service & if I pay that using cash in the UK would be taxable remittance in Thailand IF they applied the same rules. 

Interesting -- kinda turns a credit card into a debit card -- and seemingly at odds with their statement I provided. Anyway, hard for me to get my head around this UK carve-out for taxing remittances, just for folks who are "non domiciled residents." Huh?

 

But, re Thailand -- I guess the operative word in your statement, above, is: IF

And if they don't use the UK example in any definitive guidance -- I'd be comfortable in equating a credit card loan to a loan for a condo. Certainly, this would be a logical argument -- in the unlikely event there would ever be a discussion with TRD on my credit card charges, on which they'd have little to no data.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Fyi, there was a recent article in the BKK Post (which now lately is allowed as a linked and quotable source on this forum) about this thread's topic in which they spelled out the limits on Thailand's ability to obtain financial info from other countries, as follows:

 

"However, the laws on the exchange of financial information for tax purposes, which are made available in 113 countries, have certain limitations.

 

The information received from financial institutions and securities companies pertains specifically to investment-related matters, such as interest and dividends, and does not encompass all the financial information of the individual.

 

Therefore, some financial information, such as salaries or wages, will not be provided under these reciprocal information exchange agreements."

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2818689/navigating-new-foreign-income-rules

 

I would interpret the above excerpt as confirming my and others beliefs that Thailand's Revenue Department would not necessarily have or gain access on individual owners/holders of foreign debit and credit cards that might be used for ATM transactions in Thailand.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And then combine the above with this recent YT video interview with the managing partner of a major expat tax advisory firm in BKK opining that Thai ATM withdrawals made using foreign bank cards would NOT count as taxable funds being remitted into Thailand under the current Revenue Department rules.

 

There are different and conflicting views on the topic of foreign card ATM withdrawals. But I thought it was interesting to hear this pretty prominent guy offer his interpretation flatly and without equivocation.

 

Unfortunately, he didn't say -- and wasn't asked -- what his basis was/is for having his particular view/interpretation regarding Thai ATM withdrawal transactions using foreign bank cards.

 

He made those comments at about the 11:45 time point in the video below.

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 07:12 AM by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Mike Lister]

39 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

And then combine the above with this recent YT video interview with the managing partner of a major expat tax advisory firm in BKK opining that Thai ATM withdrawals made using foreign bank cards would NOT count as taxable funds being remitted into Thailand under the current Revenue Department rules.

 

There are different and conflicting views on the topic of foreign card ATM withdrawals. But I thought it was interesting to hear this pretty prominent guy offer his interpretation flatly and without equivocation.

 

Unfortunately, he didn't say -- and wasn't asked -- what his basis was/is for having his particular view/interpretation regarding Thai ATM withdrawal transactions using foreign bank cards.

 

He made those comments at about the 11:45 time point in the video below.

 

 

 

I didn't think he was even a little bit pretty.

[andre47]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I would interpret the above excerpt as confirming my and others beliefs that Thailand's Revenue Department would not necessarily have or gain access on individual owners/holders of foreign debit and credit cards that might be used for ATM transactions in Thailand.

 

If the tax office has doubts about a tax return, it can request further documents from the taxpayer.  The tax office knows the accounts and can ask the taxpayer to submit the account statements if it has any suspicions. 

I think it is very risky to submit a false tax return.

[NoDisplayName]

6 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The question of whether those remittances are assessable income is far more complex because the answer depends on the nature, source and origin of funds, in the home bank account from which the remittance was made. If savings, no, if income, probably yes.

 

I would suggest the assumption will be any funds remitted will be considered assessable unless shown otherwise.

[redwood1]

34 minutes ago, andre47 said:

If the tax office has doubts about a tax return, it can request further documents from the taxpayer.  The tax office knows the accounts and can ask the taxpayer to submit the account statements if it has any suspicions. 

I think it is very risky to submit a false tax return.

 

Sir corruption is not a risk in Thailand corruption is a respected institution practiced on all levels...

The ink was not even dry on this tax before everyone and their brother were figuring all ways not to pay jack....

Edited Monday at 08:26 AM by redwood1

[Mike Lister]

37 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I would suggest the assumption will be any funds remitted will be considered assessable unless shown otherwise.

That's not vaid, the default has to be that they are savings or exempt, otherwise everyone is guilty until proven innocent.