Make take on the new tax laws and panic

[Roo Island]

Many countries already tax foreigners living in their country. Like Portugal, Spain, and now, Belgium.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-belgium-parliament-tax-expats-new-regime/

[QuantumQuandry]

28 minutes ago, wmlc said:

First of all, it would just be prove you filed and not proof you paid. The personal income tax return and the accessed income will determine if you have to pay or not along with other deductions you might be eligible for plus any DTA that is relevant.

 

Why would it be filed?  I imagine it would just be proof that you are clear of any taxes owed.  A single document, stamped by Revenue Department.

 

30 minutes ago, wmlc said:

Secondly, I believe they won't be able to handle the tax ID applications and all the processes.

 

Immigration won't be handling that.  This has nothing to do with coordinating with immigration challenges.

 

34 minutes ago, wmlc said:

Thirdly, I think the pressure from the other government sectors that depend on foreign investment will fight back.

 

As far as I can see this, too, has nothing to do with coordination with immigration challenges.

 

35 minutes ago, wmlc said:

Finally, immigration will face so many challenging extensions people will just stop doing them and won't stay.

 

This has nothing to do with coordination with immigration challenges.  Immigration isn't facing anything.  If people can't/won't pay their taxes and they don't stay, that could be an issue for Thailand and it could be a reason that this thing never gets implemented...but it's not an issue with "coordinating with immigration".

 

There's no chaos at immigration.  It's one check box added to their existing list of many checkboxes.  Last time I went there, they made me file a stack of paperwork.  Pretty sure they wouldn't be afraid to add one more piece of paper to that stack.

[ChaiyaTH]

6 hours ago, wmlc said:

What is your opinion on enforcement?

Enforcement is peanuts, you seem to forget that is first of all no issue at all to count people who were here 180 days. Then secondly, with this law in place, they can simply use the global existing systems every other country uses as well. They would get all information, just as that is the case in western countries, and why people not get away with not paying there. 

Once you then not file your stuff, they could simply refuse visa extensions aside from the fact you commit a criminal offense if you do it on purpose + get fined + blacklisted. I'm not sure why people think that they need some special system for this, they don't really. Just for domestic stuff they do, which they now made with AI too. 

Also for domestic banking, Thailand is actually hyper modern. Western countries only have instant inter-bank and inter-euro transfers since a few years. Long story short, all that is in their way is the current law.

Edited June 9 by ChaiyaTH

[KhunHeineken]

7 hours ago, wmlc said:

Oh wow. You are paranoid.

How so? 

 

I'm not paranoid. I'm just stating how money can be sent, but without the actual cash money ever leaving a country. 

 

I posted a link showing how it works. 

 

You then went on to give examples of exactly what I posted, except for the use of Western Union. 

 

7 hours ago, wmlc said:

Some Thais actually have accounts in these other countries and there girls send the money to those accounts in Taiwan for example. That same Thai person then takes the money from their local Thai bank and gives it to the beneficiary.

Isn't that what I said, a hawala system? 

 

You are saying "wow" and I am "paranoid" and then agreeing with me about how many send the cash money back to Thailand.   Strange. 

 

The thing is, you still believe none of any of this will happen due to labor and education issues.  As another member said, they will basically pay a small salary to a Thai to collect more than their salary in tax, which makes it profitable.  

 

I have never suggested the policy / system will work correctly, or efficiently.  Quite the opposite, actually.  What I have suggested is they will go ahead with the policy in some way shape or form because it will make MONEY, and that's what it's all about, MONEY.   TIT.

[KhunHeineken]

8 hours ago, wmlc said:

This topic meaning enforcement. That will need to happen because there would need to be so many government  agencies involved and the expats would need to be informed.

There are multiple threads running where the same subject is discussed. 

 

As I posted previously,  we all maybe reading too much into this and it just might be about a foreigner paying 300, 500, or 1000 baht for a document from the TRD which must be produced at extension time.  Maybe they won't care about what was savings, what was assessable etc etc and blah blah blah.  Just pay us for this document, just like the Certificate of Residence, which should be free, but most pay 300 baht for.  

 

For high net worth Thai's, they can apply the law and rake in some good tax, if they want to. 

 

For high net worth Thai's, the TRD get the money, which basically goes into consolidated revenue.  For foreigners, including pensioners, the "fee" for the TRD document goes straight into someone's pocket at the TRD, which goes all the way up the ladder, just like "agents" fees for immigration. 

 

It's been happening for decades for immigration.  Maybe the TRD want their snout in the trough now also. 

 

Anything is possible, but we all agree it's a mess of a policy, and unworkable, but there's MONEY involved so the Thai's will make sure something, somehow, gets some money out of it, even if it's only 300 baht per foreigner. 

[KhunHeineken]

9 hours ago, wmlc said:

Agreed. Because they would be trying to implement something that has been non existent forever. No more long term tourists. No more retirees. Makes no sense right. 

Once again, you are viewing it like it will be implemented to the letter of the law, which everyone knows will be chaos.  That's why I put forward a scenario about how it MAY actually work, which is nothing more than a rip off for a document from the TRD for the majority of foreigners. 

 

I completely agree with one of your other posts on enforcement.  A policy without enforcement is no policy at all, so the Thai's must have something up their sleeve.  

 

Time will tell. 

[Expat68]

They could just tax at source, ie all money coming into a personal bank account. Then down to the individual to fill a Tax Return in to claim the money back, a bit like claiming back tax on interest at the moment 

[tandor]

13 hours ago, wmlc said:

May I ask how you think they would enforce this regulation on people that refuse to file and ignore that letter you described ? Especially, if they don't insist on seeing any evidence of you filing before doing your extension. I've given my ideas of how they could enforce it and I don't think they have the budget, man power, or the organization skills to take on such a large task. What are your ideas on this?

 

Further, I was just thinking that the letter you described would be similar to the overstay warning they often get us to sign at immigration. However, the difference is that overstay is easily enforced on exit out of Thailand or during a spot check in a club, bar, or roadside stop. 

the ThaiRevenueDepartment have access to all other Thai Government Departments and Instrumentalities' resources and can plot your everyday movements both physically and digitally if they wish. Registering and Filing a Return is on their 'honour system' with penalties for late lodging and failing to lodge by the end of March each year...work it out for yourselves..case by case.

[Srikcir]

10 hours ago, wmlc said:

They can't even speak English

Google translate - not a problem for both sides.

[Srikcir]

10 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

My experience was the opposite, simple and efficient process to have a TIN issued.

Same for me although I was challenged on why I needed a TIN as I am retired - this was in 2020. I said for refund of income tax withheld on my Thai bank savings account, albeit I had no intention of filing for such as it would be de minimis and not worth the effort. Just a personal exercise. But the ID had my address incorrect as well as the hand-written log book for ID application (subtle error but still an error), so had to go back for a correction.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

I highly doubt they'll try to enforce any of the new rules, but if they do they won't be able to - people aren't going to accept paying taxes on income that's already been taxed in their home countries. Filing taxes and dealing with double-taxation treaties is one beaurocratic nightmare, but if it means not paying extra tax people will do it - but if they go beyond and try to grab a piece of the pie despite it already being taxed then there'll be a mass exodus of anyone who's making a decent income. Either way it's a net loss for Thailand as it will either have a beaurocratic nightmare dealing with all the tax reports with no extra revenue, or suffer a huge decline in money circulating the economy as expats will limit their stays or outright leave.

[Chetzee]

slightly off topic ..... but . 

in the early 80's in the days of paper pushing and Don Mueang ,if you stayed here for more that 180 days you had to do something  called " Tax Clearance ". I did it a couple of times ....  but have no great recollection of it ....   I used to life around Khao San road those days and I think went to an office in Ratchadamneron Klang to get a paper stamped ( possibly in the passport I just don't remember).   But I am sure that people got turned away at the airport who had not got their paperwork in order .....  Anyone else remember that stuff ?    I mention it because I could see people trying to exit, being stopped if they didn't have proof of having made a tax return .... 

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

They could just tax at source, ie all money coming into a personal bank account.

Even then may still become very complex.

Money obtained from one's native bank debit card or credit card received though a Thai ATM.

Similarly Thai ATM cash received directly from foreign credit card is a debt, not income.

Reimbursements received from one's native bank account are not taxable income, ie., healthcare insurance.

Transfers of pre-2024 foreign savings from one's native bank account does not constitute post-2023 income.

Loan proceeds received from one's native bank account are not taxable income.

Loan repayment made from foreign third party eventually transferred to one's Thai bank account.

Nowhere have I read that Revenue Dept. identifies incoming currency that would be exempt as Thai taxable income (other than related to an LTR visa).

[Caldera]

16 hours ago, wmlc said:

Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry.

 

I disagree. If and when they do enforce it (either selectively on you or broadly), it will be too late. Too late to avoid being a tax resident or too late to file a tax return on time and avoid penalties.

 

This really is something you need to be proactive about. 

[Presnock]

15 hours ago, soalbundy said:

A simple standard letter issued through every IO from the tax office at the time of the 90 day registration telling you to register at the tax office would suffice, if you ignore that you are guilty of tax evasion, it's not rocket science. Having said that I don't believe they will be ready by 2024 due to lack of qualified personnel, of course they will be relying on tax accountants to do the heavy lifting and it's an ideal chance for some illegal moonlighting by the rank and file tax inspectors, one reason why this will become a reality, the scope for corruption is immense

well, they would have to change the current tax ID law as it says one needs to get a Thai Tax ID within 60 days of remitting ASSESSABLE funds into the country.  Since some of us IAW DTA's and current visa, like me, they won't have any assessable remittances so no need to file an income tax form nor get a tax ID.  Now, yes they could change the current tax law on ID's and yes they COULD go to world income taxes here in Thailand but....TIT and who knows what will be the next scheme or the dropping of this scheme.  Best of luck to all!

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, wmlc said:

May I ask how you think they would enforce this regulation on people that refuse to file and ignore that letter you described ? Especially, if they don't insist on seeing any evidence of you filing before doing your extension. I've given my ideas of how they could enforce it and I don't think they have the budget, man power, or the organization skills to take on such a large task. What are your ideas on this?

 

Further, I was just thinking that the letter you described would be similar to the overstay warning they often get us to sign at immigration. However, the difference is that overstay is easily enforced on exit out of Thailand or during a spot check in a club, bar, or roadside stop. 

 

14 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

You have to produce a bank document for the 800k to immigration. 

 

What's stopping the TRD demanding you show them a bank document showing the total of deposits in your bank account/s for the calendar year, and based on those totals, minus some allowances, is what you pay in tax in order for them to give you the document you need for your extension?

 

I know everyone wants to go on about what's "assessable" income, savings etc etc blah blah.  They will not care because they haven't got a clue.  They will throw a figure at you, based on bank deposits.  Pay it, or no extension.  They know foreigners will pay. 

 

It will be messy, possibly unjust for some, and some tax evasion for others, but they will make money out of it, whereas, they never did before, and that's all they care about, the extra money coming in.  TIT.

LTR also has no 90-day reporting to immigration so that procedure is out as well as current Tax ID law.

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, soalbundy said:

By visa renewal you get an 'under consideration stamp', the student employee then, at the end of the day, punches in all the names online to the tax office, the tax office clears all those registered with them and you get your visa, otherwise not. It could be made quite simple. It's never a good idea to mess with the tax office. Imagine it's inefficient for 2 or 3 years and you have evaded tax, then one fine day you get called in to back pay 3 years ++++ and get charged with tax evasion and get deported. I've worked out that at the very most they could charge me is 25,000 Baht for a year, that's less than the tax I would pay in Germany for 2 months while I was working, I haven't paid tax legally anywhere for nigh on 20 years so I've had a good run.

yes you are one of those that they are changing the world tax laws to find...funny you announce it on an open forum.

[Bangkok Barry]

15 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Would you send several million dollars worth of previously untaxed currency into Thailand on the off chance nothing changes and it might not affect you at any point in the next 10 years when they get around to doing an audit on every financial transaction you've ever done since arriving?

 

 

You don't worry about a problem like the above - you take action and eliminate the possibility of it ever happening.

 

 

According to a recent post by a mod, @Sheryl who seems to have a handle on this, the new proposed law refers to all income worldwide by all foreigners, even if not a cent of it enters Thailand. The policy seems to be 'we'll charge you tax and then it's your job (ours) to claim it back' if there us a DTA agreement. A nightmare.

 

And although the mod said it is only a proposal and won't be introduced until next year, it DOES affect us NOW as what we pay is based on our income NOW. What she posted:

The new proposal, which has a way to go before becoming law (if it does), would also tax income not brought into Thailand (income, not savings) subject to the same considerations as above: whether the source of the income is exempted under the relevant DTA, and credits to avoid double taxation.

 

EDIT: The worldwide aspect would seem to negate my idea of not transferring any money into Thailand but to charge most spending to my UK Visa card. Simply by living here and not bringing any money into the country we will be liable to be taxed on income earned overseas.

Edited June 10 by Bangkok Barry

[Presnock]

12 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

No western retirees buying condos?

So what?
 

 

1.5 billion Chinese with visa-free stays don't care about your tax residency rules.  They can come and go as they please, and are willing to buy everything in sight.  Note:  China does NOT tax worldwide income.

 

"All you condo belong us!"

 

 

 

since Sept 2018, China is a signatory on the OECD rules of exchange between countries of banking data..

[DFPhuket]

Remember the proposal to impose a tourism fee that was introduced around 2020 but then delayed multiple times? Thai authorities repeatedly reaffirmed their intention to implement the fee.

 

However, due to opposition from various stakeholders and challenges in figuring out how to effectively collect the fee, the government dropped the plan in mid-2023.

 

If the government couldn’t organize a 300 baht arrival fee, how can they possibly manage this new tax plan?

[worrab]

15 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

My opinion on it is a foreigner will need to make contact with the TRD between 1st Jan and 31st March for paper returns, and the 8th April for online returns. 

 

You will have to declare your income / remittances.  You will then pay your tax bill, if you have one, and then the TRD will issue a document.  You will need this document for your annual extension.

 

I envisage you will also need this document to leave Thailand if one has been here for more than 180 days in the calendar year.  I have posted airports and boarders may have a "tax desk" similar to the "overstay desk" where you will have to pay before you can leave, but this is for another thread. 

 

You don't produce a document from the TRD, no extension granted.  You don't seek an extension because you are leaving Thailand, you may be directed to the tax desk at the airport because immigration will know you are a resident of Thailand for tax purposes.  

 

You may not pay the right amount of tax, but they will make you pay something, and that's all this is about.  Just another earner for them. 

 

I also expect "agents" will offer to deal with the TRD  as well. 

 

What happens then if you receive a large inheritance which is not taxable?? Therefore no need to get a TIN or to even contact the TRD. No document to produce to Immigration for extension of stay or even departing the country.  

[Thaindrew]

12 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

No western retirees buying condos?

So what?
 

 

1.5 billion Chinese with visa-free stays don't care about your tax residency rules.  They can come and go as they please, and are willing to buy everything in sight.  Note:  China does NOT tax worldwide income.

 

"All you condo belong us!"

 

 

 

China does tax worldwide income for tax residents, I lived there for 20 years and left when they changed to a global tax system

[HuaHinNew]

17 hours ago, wmlc said:

 

Considering that the 180 day rule has been around for years and just some changes on what income is included were amended this year, I would say everyone  is overreacting about all this tax news. Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry. The more logical statement is "IF" they announce. I don't think there will be a "when". Why? Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now. Regarding ways they could enforce it. Currently, they only enforce the filing of personal income tax in Thailand when one needs to renew a work permit. Moving forward, they could use the exit and entry history from immigration and send notices out, but then what? They could impose stricter bank of Thailand regulations where banks would need to notify the revenue dept more often on the money you receive from abroad. Then what? They could ask immigration to request proof you filed personal income tax before they extend your Retirement visa or Thai wife visa. ****For all you ridiculous people, extension of stay based on being retired or married to a Thai....geeze who cares. Most members understand visa and visa extension and it's easier for them to comprehend.*** So, anyways, then what? Immigration won't want to deal with all this. That's for sure. 

 

In my opinion, all this will be too much trouble for the Thai government. They won't be able to organize all this properly. They would have to make an online website for foreigners to register for a tax ID. They would have to have a concrete plan of enforcement with multiple government sectors  involved. All that to force foreigners to file. Yes, that's right. Force them to file, not pay. With most countries, there are DTAs to prevent people from being double taxed. 

 

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. It will never happen. Just like it never happened before. 

 

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system, I laughed hysterically. I wish Thailand the best of luck, but I don't think they will be able to pull any of this off. Besides, a new government will come along in a few years and change the strategy again on all these things. Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't. 

One important fact missing from your synopses, Thai Immigration is a loss center, the Thai Revenue Department is a profit center, the more taxation funds the TRD secure the bigger they can become as a collection agency for the government, and expand even further and collect more taxation funds.  

 

They are like most government taxation collection agencies in the world, they have the most say, the most pull and the most power of business and peoples lives. 

 

They can mandate and implement any and all conditions against any individuals, other government and non government department, Immigration, DLT, Banks, Clearing Housings, SET, Financial Institutions and Investment Companies and Provisional Government departments.

 

Remember, the country is currently broke and heading south in most economic portfolios.

 

It's often stated, you can't tax your way out of economic hardship, but outside the TRD the Thai government have no real options to boost their funds to run the country  ..........so the TRD may be slow and currently wanting but over time they will adjust and be like a steamroller.

[Wrwest]

15 hours ago, soalbundy said:

By visa renewal you get an 'under consideration stamp', the student employee then, at the end of the day, punches in all the names online to the tax office, the tax office clears all those registered with them and you get your visa, otherwise not. It could be made quite simple. It's never a good idea to mess with the tax office. Imagine it's inefficient for 2 or 3 years and you have evaded tax, then one fine day you get called in to back pay 3 years ++++ and get charged with tax evasion and get deported. I've worked out that at the very most they could charge me is 25,000 Baht for a year, that's less than the tax I would pay in Germany for 2 months while I was working, I haven't paid tax legally anywhere for nigh on 20 years so I've had a good run.

I lean toward, "I will deal with this if it comes to pass". Any concern is due to having retired to lower cost of living Thailand as I cannot afford to live a retired working middle class life in my own country. As an American, I am required by US Law to report worldwide income annually. I continue to do so but, under US law, my tax return results in no income tax owed. The Kingdom of Thailand is discussing taxing me as a tax resident? The issue arises that my income would result in a Thai income tax as transferring around 1 million baht annually ... irony in this ... saving grace? Tax Treaty to protect from double taxation but ... not sure how this will all shake out. Jai, yen, yen ...

[scorecard]

17 hours ago, soalbundy said:

A simple standard letter issued through every IO from the tax office at the time of the 90 day registration telling you to register at the tax office would suffice, if you ignore that you are guilty of tax evasion, it's not rocket science. Having said that I don't believe they will be ready by 2024 due to lack of qualified personnel, of course they will be relying on tax accountants to do the heavy lifting and it's an ideal chance for some illegal moonlighting by the rank and file tax inspectors, one reason why this will become a reality, the scope for corruption is immense

 

I've had a personal Thai Tax number for over 30 years:

- Needed when I was a full expat for a multi national, big salary, big tax, but most years had a to pay a bit extra to finalize the year.

- Needed when I was lecturing at a Thai uni, no tax deducted, but a statement of annual earnings issued. Acct. prepared annual tax return, most years had to pay several hundred Baht to clear that year. Since discovered I very probably didn't need to submit Thai tax return for these years.

 

Now, only income is old age pension transferred automatically from abroad. 

 

I got Thai PR 27 years ago, I life with my Thai family full time (365 days every year) in Thailand.

 

But so far no clear answers whether old age pension from abroad is taxable in Thailand. It's not subject to personal tax in the country of origin. 

 

After the basic deductions seems I will might need to pay Thai tax about 800Baht per year.

 

 

Not the end of the world. 

Edited June 10 by scorecard

[bg53]

12 hours ago, Roo Island said:

Many countries already tax foreigners living in their country. Like Portugal, Spain, and now, Belgium.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-belgium-parliament-tax-expats-new-regime/

 

 

Lessons from the Politico article about Belgium's new tax law.

 

 

 

Quote

"now they will be taxable on foreign investment income and worldwide professional income"

 

There is a chance that the new Thai scheme will tax more than that, e.g. capital gains.

 

 

 

Quote

that will no doubt have a negative impact on the attractiveness of Belgium and Belgian employers on the market

 

"People from abroad could easily go to the Netherlands or to France, and there they would have a much higher net salary than they have in Belgium," she said, adding that there is now trend of expats resigning after their employer refused to increase their gross salary to make up for the tax hit.
 

 

Thailand should consider not just the short-term, top-line revenue gains but all the consequences.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

18 hours ago, soalbundy said:

A simple standard letter issued through every IO from the tax office at the time of the 90 day registration telling you to register at the tax office would suffice, if you ignore that you are guilty of tax evasion, it's not rocket science.

 

Cough, cough, um, if anything ever transpires and they tell you to register, you simply say, what for, I am not a tax resident as I do not make an income, I live off of my savings, and if they want you to back it up, you back it up, if you can't find clever ways to address that, then register and start coughing up.

 

They will NEVER see anything from me, end of story.

[pluto_manibo]

 As Buddhist doctrines say, all is impermanent and suffering.

Edited June 10 by pluto_manibo
spelling

[soalbundy]

33 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Cough, cough, um, if anything ever transpires and they tell you to register, you simply say, what for, I am not a tax resident as I do not make an income, I live off of my savings, and if they want you to back it up, you back it up, if you can't find clever ways to address that, then register and start coughing up.

 

They will NEVER see anything from me, end of story.

Never say never. The state is mightier than the individual.

"Yes sir, I appreciate what you are saying but we need official confirmation, until such time we will tax you on that amount and you can apply to have the money returned at a later date."

[connda]

20 hours ago, wmlc said:

 

Considering that the 180 day rule has been around for years and just some changes on what income is included were amended this year, I would say everyone  is overreacting about all this tax news. Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry. The more logical statement is "IF" they announce. I don't think there will be a "when". Why? Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now. Regarding ways they could enforce it. Currently, they only enforce the filing of personal income tax in Thailand when one needs to renew a work permit. Moving forward, they could use the exit and entry history from immigration and send notices out, but then what? They could impose stricter bank of Thailand regulations where banks would need to notify the revenue dept more often on the money you receive from abroad. Then what? They could ask immigration to request proof you filed personal income tax before they extend your Retirement visa or Thai wife visa. ****For all you ridiculous people, extension of stay based on being retired or married to a Thai....geeze who cares. Most members understand visa and visa extension and it's easier for them to comprehend.*** So, anyways, then what? Immigration won't want to deal with all this. That's for sure. 

 

In my opinion, all this will be too much trouble for the Thai government. They won't be able to organize all this properly. They would have to make an online website for foreigners to register for a tax ID. They would have to have a concrete plan of enforcement with multiple government sectors  involved. All that to force foreigners to file. Yes, that's right. Force them to file, not pay. With most countries, there are DTAs to prevent people from being double taxed. 

 

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. It will never happen. Just like it never happened before. 

 

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system, I laughed hysterically. I wish Thailand the best of luck, but I don't think they will be able to pull any of this off. Besides, a new government will come along in a few years and change the strategy again on all these things. Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't. 

Well said.  Kick back, relax, wait for 2025 - or - until the Thai government publishes concrete laws which includes written enforcement measures (and still wait until 2025) and then see what shakes out.  Then plan-act accordingly.