Using an overseas Debit Card to minimise paying tax for those of us staying over 180 days

[Banana7]

At one point, getting cash in Thailand using a WISE card was possible by going to any bank that issues VISA cards. There was no fee for over the counter (OTC) transactions. The fee was only charged when using an ATM. I haven't tried OTC lately. Maybe someone in Thailand can try it and comment.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I think you are right and not to rain on your parade because I think 2017 is very safe.

I agree that 2017 is safe as is anything prior 2024

 

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

But there is a question as to when the sale proceeds of a capital asset such as a house, actually become savings and nobody seems to know.

This is semantics and the terms are irrelevant as far as the TRD is concerned. The TRD is interested in if the funds are assessable or are not assessable when remitted into Thailand. So wanting to term them savings is just unnecessary confusing the issue. Once the funds are remitted and you decide if they are assessable or not and paid tax or not as required you are free  to call them anything you like.

 

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

For example, if you sell your house in January and then remit the proceeds in February, are those considered savings? Probably not is the short answer, especially if the sale and the remittance are made in a year when you are Thai tax resident.

Again what you decide to call the funds does not have any effect on if they are or are not assessable, you can call them tears of a unicorn if you want and as far as the DTC is concerned they always remain capital gains until remitted to Thailand. However the tax rules on capital gains are virtually always covered by a DTA/DTC the U.K. DTC says they are taxable in Thailand 

Quote

(4) Capital gains from the alienation of any property other than those mentioned in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this Article shall be taxable only in the Contracting State of which the alienator is a resident.  

This would mean that if you were only tax resident in Thailand you would be exempt from CGT in the U.K. but required to pay in Thailand.

you need to read the DTA/DTC applicable to you as Sherrings says 

Quote

** Not including capital gains income derived from immovable property outside Thailand for which most Double Tax Agreements prescribe the tax rights for the country in which the immovable property is situated (outside Thailand).

https://sherrings.com/capital-gains-personal-income-tax-thailand.html
 

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If you weren't tax resident in the year of sale or remittance, the funds are not assessable.

Correct but you are rather unlikely to totally escape CGT

[chiang mai]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I agree that 2017 is safe as is anything prior 2024

 

This is semantics and the terms are irrelevant as far as the TRD is concerned. The TRD is interested in if the funds are assessable or are not assessable when remitted into Thailand. So wanting to term them savings is just unnecessary confusing the issue. Once the funds are remitted and you decide if they are assessable or not and paid tax or not as required you are free  to call them anything you like.

 

Again what you decide to call the funds does not have any effect on if they are or are not assessable, you can call them tears of a unicorn if you want and as far as the DTC is concerned they always remain capital gains until remitted to Thailand. However the tax rules on capital gains are virtually always covered by a DTA/DTC the U.K. DTC says they are taxable in Thailand 

This would mean that if you were only tax resident in Thailand you would be exempt from CGT in the U.K. but required to pay in Thailand.

you need to read the DTA/DTC applicable to you as Sherrings says 

https://sherrings.com/capital-gains-personal-income-tax-thailand.html
 

Correct but you are rather unlikely to totally escape CGT

I had to read and re-read your post several times before understanding your point, it's great that you take so much care to address each statement but it can make trying to understand whether you agree with the key point, confusing. I wrote that I was unsure at what point the sale of a capital item such as property, allowed the proceeds to become savings. I didn't say so explicitly but I assumed everyone understood that CG tax would have been paid in the home country where necessary (many expats who rent out their homes must pay CG). At that point, the home has been sold, taxes paid and the money is in the bank, the question is now, are those funds savings, from day one. But then you wrote, "as far as the DTC is concerned they always remain capital gains until remitted to Thailand".

 

I do understand that it is the remitters responsibility to determine the assessability of those funds and to declare them accordingly. This is the entire issue is it not, what exactly is the assessability of those funds? According to your statement, they are always CG gains, whereas I think they become savings at some point in time but do not understand exactly when. IF this were worldwide taxation, those funds would automatically become savings in the following year after they were earned, but it is not....yet! 

 

 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

11 hours ago, Banana7 said:

I haven't tried OTC lately. Maybe someone in Thailand can try it and comment.

 

I know Krungsri Bank used to allow up to 150,000 baht OTC for a 200 baht fee using debit cards, they would charge more for a credit card.

 

It's actually criminal in my opinion when they send you to the ATM, i.e. in the beginning when ATM's came in, the banks excuse was, use it for withdrawals, that way you don't have to line up for the teller, then they culled the tellers, and then started charging ATM fees and we all fell into their trap.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

I know Krungsri Bank used to allow up to 150,000 baht OTC for a 200 baht fee using debit cards, they would charge more for a credit card.

 

It's actually criminal in my opinion when they send you to the ATM, i.e. in the beginning when ATM's came in, the banks excuse was, use it for withdrawals, that way you don't have to line up for the teller, then they culled the tellers, and then started charging ATM fees and we all fell into their trap.

That was always the plan, from the very outset, even in the US in the 1970's. Reduce branch and staffing costs and monetise the ATM's.

[CharlieKo]

21 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Are gifts taxable in Thailand?

Amount of Taxation
The Gift Tax rate for the non-related receivers is 10% while it is 5% for descendants or ascendants. For those who are eligible to pay 10% gift tax are offered an opportunity to pay 5% gift tax rate. This is under certain circumstances only.

 

The above said, I think I have come up with what I believe to be a brainstorm idea for those with in-laws over 65 who don't have an income, plus my wife not having an income.

 

Actually the wife came up with the in-laws idea, so credit to her.

 

I gift 190,000 to my father-in-law & another 190,000 to my mother-in-law as they are allowed a 190,000 deductible, (accounts to be open with no ATM cards, so no annual fee for each account.

 

These will be new accounts which my wife of 2 decades will hold, I will then transfer 150,000 baht to my wife's account, i.e. also a gift and is under the threshold amount of 150,000.

 

The total gifted comes to 530,000 and I have 460,000 worth of deductibles, i.e. 990,000 in total, as I am over 65 years of age and can claim 150,000 for age, then 60,000 as a self personal allowance, plus 60,000 to wife as a personal allowance, so 990,000, that's as close to the mil as one can get which suites me, and is legal.

 

What this means is, I pay zero tax, oh and yes, as soon as the money hits the in-laws accounts, my wife can make an internet transfer from the bank (newly set up from the in-laws accounts) to her account, and we can make withdrawals when we fill it necessary via my wife's account.

 

I will keep the 400,000 baht required in my account for the annual marriage extension which has been in my account prior to 2024. 

 

More than one way to claw back to what I perceive as a stupid law as we already contribute to Thailand's economy.

 

If anyone foresees a problem with how I'm thinking, please feel free to burst my bubble.

 

 

If the RD decide to do an audit of your return, and see what you suggest above. You will be fined for fraud. Any funds distributed to family close or extended, has to been seen in their bank accounts as proof such funds were gifted. The minute those funds are syphoned back to you are the wife, they are no longer a gift. 

 

Your Brainstorm is going to get you in trouble big time. 

[tlcwaterfall]

1 minute ago, CharlieKo said:

If the RD decide to do an audit of your return, and see what you suggest above. You will be fined for fraud. Any funds distributed to family close or extended, has to been seen in their bank accounts as proof such funds were gifted. The minute those funds are syphoned back to you are the wife, they are no longer a gift. 

 

Your Brainstorm is going to get you in trouble big time. 

No trouble if the family give him the funds back in cash though. 😊

[Mike Teavee]

4 minutes ago, tlcwaterfall said:

No trouble if the family give him the funds back in cash though. 😊

As with all of these "Avoid Tax" schemes the problem will be if (< 0.00001% chance) TRD decides to Audit you because they see that you've not remitted any money or spent anything that you already had in Thailand, how are you going to explain what you've been using to live on?

 

I took it out of an ATM - Whoops... Tax Evasion

I gave it to my wife so she could give it back to me - Whoops... Tax Evasion

 

Reality is that most people (I'm not one of them) will pay more tax on their income in their home country than will be owed in Thailand so no need to worry (I'm not worried & I pay no tax in my home country but have organised my remittances to Thailand so I don't pay tax here either).

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

14 minutes ago, tlcwaterfall said:

No trouble if the family give him the funds back in cash though. 😊

I think if I was the Revenue, I might look at that persons bank account to see what withdrawals they were making to live on. When I didn't find any, I might wonder if they were working illegally or involved in illegal activities, that's when the problems start. Confess to tax evasion or admit to cooking and selling crystal meth, a tough call to make.

[tlcwaterfall]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

As with all of these "Avoid Tax" schemes the problem will be if (< 0.00001% chance) TRD decides to Audit you because they see that you've not remitted any money or spent anything that you already had in Thailand, how are you going to explain what you've been using to live on?

 

I took it out of an ATM - Whoops... Tax Evasion

I gave it to my wife so she could give it back to me - Whoops... Tax Evasion

 

Reality is that most people (I'm not one of them) will pay more tax on their income in their home country than will be owed in Thailand so no need to worry (I'm not worried & I pay no tax in my home country but have organised my remittances to Thailand so I don't pay tax here either).

 

 

 

 

If you were to follow my hypothetical example you would most likely have existing funds in your account that you are living on. Funds given back to you by relatives would be used as and when needed. Always need to be aware that people all have different situations. Eg some pensions are not taxed in their home countries after the age of 60.

 

 

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Well, the DTA doesn't really "protect" you, it just means you're taxed in your home country, where tax is most likely considerably higher than in Thailand.

Have always been taxed in my home country - USA since age 17.  And I do blv that 35% Thai tax would be higher than what I pay now.

[Presnock]

16 hours ago, tlcwaterfall said:

Do you mean tax returns are due by March 31 2025? I thought Thai tax year was from January 1 until December 31 each year.

Tax year is 1 Jan -31 Dec and one has to file between 1 Jan until 31 March if one is filing.

[mikebell]

20 hours ago, Presnock said:

Right now, I believe that the govt does have people reading the comments  of folks on this forum

I doubt it very much; there aren't enough officials with sufficient English to follow these discussions.

If there are Government people reading this, please be aware, IF you attempt to tax my already taxed pensions in UK, I will be moving to Laos taking my 800K with me.

[Presnock]

14 minutes ago, mikebell said:

I doubt it very much; there aren't enough officials with sufficient English to follow these discussions.

If there are Government people reading this, please be aware, IF you attempt to tax my already taxed pensions in UK, I will be moving to Laos taking my 800K with me.

only has to read certain categories as the revenue folks wouldn't care about most comments - but anything dealing with taxes, income, wouldn't take many people - probably one could do it.  I am not suggesting that they are doing it, only that could be possible.  I think by now they have to realize that expats here are watching closely to see what the latest tax collection scheme will be.  In the last couple of days the govt has announced that they want to entice skilled people to live and work here especially Thais working in other countries.  Obviously it will be interesting to see if they announce publically lower or no taxes on those folks - especially since it would upset expats which they seem to like doing.  Have a good one.

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, mikebell said:

I doubt it very much; there aren't enough officials with sufficient English to follow these discussions.

If there are Government people reading this, please be aware, IF you attempt to tax my already taxed pensions in UK, I will be moving to Laos taking my 800K with me.

After hearing this news I expect the whole notion of taxing foreigners to be cancelled by lunch time.

[jayboy]

15 hours ago, chiang mai said:

No, not if you don't have assessable income and are only remitting pre January 1 2024 savings.

 

You may well be right but I don't think we know for sure.

 

To be clear, we are talking about 180+ day foreign residents in Thailand (with no Thailand originated income) who only remit funds from their home countries which originated pre January 2024 and are therefore non assessable and not subject to Thai income tax.

 

I expect most in this category should in theory have submitted Thai tax returns in the past but the vast majority didn't, and there is no evidence the Thai RD expected them to.

 

However in the current tighter tax climate I have yet to see any evidence that expats in the non tax paying category (see above) don't have to submit a return even if there is no assessable income to declare.I'm in that category and don't propose to submit a tax return for 2024.I don't yet have complete confidence this is okay but the downside is insignificant.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

This is the entire issue is it not, what exactly is the assessability of those funds? According to your statement, they are always CG gains, whereas I think they become savings at some point in time but do not understand exactly when. IF this were worldwide taxation, those funds would automatically become savings in the following year after they were earned, but it is not....yet! 

From making the capital gain in your home country (independent of if you have a home country CGT liability or not) until remitted to Thailand (if you ever do) they remain a capital gain and so assessable for Thai tax according to the TRD. The TRD who is the only relevant body for this discussion, always considers them assessable 

 

This is only true if you are a Thai tax resident in the year the gain occurs and you are Thai tax resident in the year the money is remitted 

Thai world wide taxation would make changes that haven’t been decided yet so it is pointless to speculate until the rules are clear, however it is extremely unlikely that your idea about the likely effect is true

Your introduction of the term savings is rather unhelpful, as the TRD has no interest the the term the remittance to Thailand is either assessable income, non-assessable money or a mixture of both

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

20 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

From making the capital gain in your home country (independent of if you have a home country CGT liability or not) until remitted to Thailand (if you ever do) they remain a capital gain and so assessable for Thai tax according to the TRD. The TRD who is the only relevant body for this discussion, always considers them assessable 

I've posited this a few times now but would welcome your views... 

 

Let's say I made a £10,000 Capital Gain from selling some shares (fully taxed in the UK in that they don't tax Expats on CG from shares) & used it + the original principle to buy some different shares, then sold these making a small capital loss (price spread + dealing charges) & remit the full proceeds to Thailand.

 

Do I need to declare the £10,000 (- small CG loss) as Capital Gains or have I made a small loss so nothing to report in Thailand?

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

IF this were worldwide taxation, those funds would automatically become savings in the following year after they were earned, but it is not....yet! 

In my opinion that is based on whole cloth, as it would reintroduce the tax loophole that has just been closed

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

From making the capital gain in your home country (independent of if you have a home country CGT liability or not) until remitted to Thailand (if you ever do) they remain a capital gain and so assessable for Thai tax according to the TRD. The TRD who is the only relevant body for this discussion, always considers them assessable 

 

This is only true if you are a Thai tax resident in the year the gain occurs and you are Thai tax resident in the year the money is remitted 

Thai world wide taxation would make changes that haven’t been decided yet so it is pointless to speculate until the rules are clear, however it is extremely unlikely that your idea about the likely effect is true

Your introduction of the term savings is rather unhelpful, as the TRD has no interest the the term the remittance to Thailand is either assessable income, non-assessable money or a mixture of both

 

 

I disagree that the proceeds of the sale will always remain a capital gain, fifty years hence they will be regarded as savings and the capital gain aspect will be long forgotten. We can however agree to disagree on this point.

 

Not to be pedantic, the concept of worldwide taxation regards events on an annual basis. Once a year has ended, everything that remains is savings and only new events that occur thereafter can be considered for tax. I can assure you that what I wrote in this respect is absolutely correct..

[sirineou]

On 8/6/2024 at 5:41 PM, 4MyEgo said:

I haven't remitted anything this year and am returning to my home country shortly, so am thinking about ordering one online and picking it up at my home land address.

While in your country, how about stuffing your pockets with $19,999 worth of baht? Anything below $20,00 you don't have to report. 

Not that I would be doing anything like that mind you, but others without my moral compass might. 

[chiang mai]

44 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

You may well be right but I don't think we know for sure.

 

 

Isn't this what Por 162 makes clear?

[sometimewoodworker]

7 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I've posited this a few times now but would welcome your views... 

 

Let's say I made a £10,000 Capital Gain from selling some shares (fully taxed in the UK in that they don't tax Expats on CG from shares) & used it + the original principle to buy some different shares, then sold these making a small capital loss (price spread + dealing charges) & remit the full proceeds to Thailand.

 

Do I need to declare the £10,000 (- small CG loss) as Capital Gains or have I made a small loss so nothing to report in Thailand?

In my opinion you have a capital gain of £10,000ish assuming that all transactions happened post 1/1/2024. The buy/sell transaction would not affect the assess-ability of the transferred funds. If it did nobody would ever have capital gains to report.

 

however you need a tax advisor to confirm.

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

In my opinion that is based on whole cloth, as it would reintroduce the tax loophole that has just been closed

Well no, because under world wide tax rules, the income should have already been reported, if they weren't, that's tax evasion. 

[ballpoint]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

I've posited this a few times now but would welcome your views... 

 

Let's say I made a £10,000 Capital Gain from selling some shares (fully taxed in the UK in that they don't tax Expats on CG from shares) & used it + the original principle to buy some different shares, then sold these making a small capital loss (price spread + dealing charges) & remit the full proceeds to Thailand.

 

Do I need to declare the £10,000 (- small CG loss) as Capital Gains or have I made a small loss so nothing to report in Thailand?

 

I'm in the same position.  There is no CGT in Australia for non-residents when the gain is made on Non-Taxable Australian property, and Singapore, where there is no CGT at all.  The income has been reported in the country it was made, but is legally tax free there, so definitely not tax evasion.  In the past this was easy to remit to Thailand without having to pay any tax on it here, by using the "earned in previous year(s)" method.  Unless / until Thailand starts taxing all overseas income, regardless of whether it's remitted here or not, the capital gains you make in such countries are not taxable here, as long as they're not remitted.  Now, at this point I was going to agree with you on using the gain from one asset to buy another, and then sell that at break even, or a small loss before remitting it to Thailand, but while thinking about how to word it I changed my mind, as I suspect the TRD will only be interested in the sale of the second asset as a whole. Unless you realised the initial gain, and bought the second asset prior to Jan 1st this year, I think it will all be assessable.  I hope I'm wrong, but everything I've read in the tax code, and talking to TRD people, I fear that I'm right.

 

Using a similar example, If I made a capital gain of $10,000 this year and put it in a bank, then remit the full amount next year, I'd need to report that as assessable income.  Even if bank fees caused that amount to drop slightly, so I'd made no gain on that money, it would still be assessable.  Buying shares may be treated differently, but I suspect it will be the same. The TRD will see that you sold £10,000 of shares, that you didn't hold prior to Jan 1st this year (if that even matters, but that's a different can of worms), and will want to collect the tax on it.  In any case, this is definitely a question for a reputable tax advisor.  (However, I'm holding off asking any such questions until the tax advisors themselves know what is going on.  Hopefully later this year, though given that this year's tax situation regarding remitted funds is no different from previous ones, in that income earned prior to this year is still non-assessable, it may not be till late 2025 that things actually become clear).

[CharlieKo]

4 hours ago, tlcwaterfall said:

No trouble if the family give him the funds back in cash though. 😊

What part of returning funds meant as a gift voiding any tax free status do you not understand. Are you people so dumb to think you can con the RD and they will somehow miss it. You wouldn't dare to con HMRC or the IRS or Euro equivalent tax authority, So why do you think you can con the RD. a Hefty fine and prison time awaits and then you get kicked out of Thailand.

[Chivas]

On 8/6/2024 at 6:14 PM, shdmn said:

It's all on their website.  Easy to find and explained in a way that a 5yo can understand.  Asking on there is the worst place you can possible get correct info.  This site is overrun by trolls and troll farms that just want to generate misinformation and chaos.

 

Hence my post 2 up from this one I quoted on Page 1

[patman30]

20 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Are you suggesting that if the funds, e.g. savings were earned before 2024, Mr Farang has no issue then, if he remits his money to Thailand after 2024 ?

Correct, tax is applicable to funds acquired after Jan 2024

my advice would be remit a lot this year
who knows what it may be in a few years time.

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

Are you people so dumb to think you can con the RD and they will somehow miss it. You wouldn't dare to con HMRC or the IRS or Euro equivalent tax authority, So why do you think you can con the RD.

You're comparing western tax authorities to TRD... seriously?

[tlcwaterfall]

6 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

What part of returning funds meant as a gift voiding any tax free status do you not understand. Are you people so dumb to think you can con the RD and they will somehow miss it. You wouldn't dare to con HMRC or the IRS or Euro equivalent tax authority, So why do you think you can con the RD. a Hefty fine and prison time awaits and then you get kicked out of Thailand.

 CharliKo. Are you having a bad day? Forums are here to discuss topics and give different points of view.