Several neighbouring countries compete with Thailand for foreign retirees

[webfact]

Property growth is the biggest draw in south east Asia as this Phuket hoarding illustrates.

 

By Barry Kenyon

Thailand offers a multiplicity of long-term visas for women and men well past the first bloom of youth. They include annual extensions of stay, the 5-20 years Elite visa and the 10 years Long Term Residence (LTR), each of which has its own scale of charges with assorted pluses and minuses.

 

None of them allows direct ownership of land by foreigners, nor guarantees a path to permanent residency or citizenship. Purchase of condominiums is allowed but does not generally result in visa concessions. Since January 2024, anyone spending six months or more in the kingdom may be liable to personal income tax on remitted income.

Malaysia has had a 5-20 years My Second Home program since 2002 but there have been a succession of changes, including the requirement to purchase and retain a property and associated land (100 percent in their name) in order to spur growth in the local market. Perks include obtaining visas for spouses, parents and children under 34 years.

 

Unlike Thailand, Malaysia imposes the requirement to live in the country for at least three months per year, although a dependant relative can substitute where the visa holder is still of working age. Malaysia is not currently insisting on foreign tax residents paying tax on remitted income from abroad.

 

Cambodia seems to have abandoned an earlier second home campaign, but the Retirement ER visa gives one year which is annually renewable. Retirees aged at least 55 years do not need to provide written proof of status or finances. Property ownership laws are strict and similar to Thailand’s.

 

In theory, Cambodia requires foreign residents to file and pay taxes on their foreign income, but there are few signs of enforcement for this kind of visa. Cambodia allows foreigners to purchase citizenship provided they invest or donate US$300,000, an offer taken up with alacrity by rich Chinese in particular.

 

Full story: PATTAYA MAIL 2024-08-21

 

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[hotchilli]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

None of them allows direct ownership of land by foreigners, nor guarantees a path to permanent residency or citizenship. Purchase of condominiums is allowed but does not generally result in visa concessions. Since January 2024, anyone spending six months or more in the kingdom may be liable to personal income tax on remitted income.

A retiree wanting to leave their native homeland and settle for good in another country will be looking for somewhere safe, a reasonable climate and above all else security for the their finances.

Also medical care at affordable prices

Thailand is falling short on all these issues.

 

[alex8912]

Pretty nice ads up right in Times Square several neon ads in a row saying Make Thailand your home. Thailand long term visa etc. Also ads on same sign for tourism. Just walked by there an hour ago. 

[CLUBBER]

18 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

A retiree wanting to leave their native homeland and settle for good in another country will be looking for somewhere safe, a reasonable climate and above all else security for the their finances.

Also medical care at affordable prices

Thailand is falling short on all these issues.

 

You just described Uruguay 🇺🇾

[Mason45]

17 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

A retiree wanting to leave their native homeland and settle for good in another country will be looking for somewhere safe, a reasonable climate and above all else security for the their finances.

Also medical care at affordable prices

Thailand is falling short on all these issues.

 

I'm sitting on the fence in regards to the tax issue. I'll just wait and see if it really does come into play. I've a feeling it won't as how would the public servants and the system handle this as most are stressed out now.

[hotchilli]

6 minutes ago, Mason45 said:

I'm sitting on the fence in regards to the tax issue. I'll just wait and see if it really does come into play. I've a feeling it won't as how would the public servants and the system handle this as most are stressed out now.

I wonder if a Thai tax receipt will be required when applying for a POS in the future

[Homburg]

"Thailand offers a multiplicity of long term visas......" All of which seems to be thoughtfully designed to deter as many applicants as possible. By contrast in Cambodia, retirees pay an annual (multiple entry) visa extension fee of c.$200 (c.$300 via an agent with no need to ever set foot in immigration, just drop off your passport with a pic, pay the fee and collect it in about a week). And that's it. No mountains of paperwork, no bank deposit, no re-entry permits, no 90 day reporting. Just come and go as you please. One page in the passport is used up each year for the visa (plus entry and exit stamps). One gripe: the annual extension is for 364 days only!

[jcmj]

Thailand is bound to shoot itself in the foot again sooner or later. 

[Homburg]

15 minutes ago, CLUBBER said:

You just described Uruguay 🇺🇾

And Paraguay?

[thesetat2013]

Timing for an article such is this should raise some flags. They have not shown thailand any better than other countries near here. Are they trying to give the foreigners options to leave before taxes are imposed? Do they see that many foreigners are considering leaving Thailand before they begin imposing taxes next year? 

 

One has to wonder these things because Thailand never ever tries to show they are not better in some ways than other neighboring countries.  Except in this respect. 

[Olav Seglem]

53 minutes ago, Mason45 said:

I'm sitting on the fence in regards to the tax issue. I'll just wait and see if it really does come into play. I've a feeling it won't as how would the public servants and the system handle this as most are stressed out now.

I pay tax to thailand today. No big issue. Can transfer about the 650.000 annually before any tax at all. So "dont worry, be happy 🙂 "

[RichardColeman]

Retirees want to relax if they move somewhere, what they do not want is having to tie up money in a Thai bank, and report like a criminal every 90 days and keep your fingers crossed you get another year extension every year. Retiring to a place where with one swish of a pen you could be living in the box on the street of your home country is not enticing to some.

 

[Lopburikid]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

I wonder if a Thai tax receipt will be required when applying for a POS in the future

There will be foreigners who are eligible for tax and those who aren't. I worked for my first 9 years . Work permit. nonB visa (renewed every year at Bangkok immigration. All copies of passport,tax form, earnings the lot. After 9 years went to hand in by work permit to start another company. Work permit had never been registered plus the company that employed me had no right to employ me as it was never registered to employ foreigners. All my tax form were fake. Works department new it wasn't my fault so got a 3 month extension of stay.

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, thesetat2013 said:

One has to wonder these things because Thailand never ever tries to show they are not better in some ways than other neighboring countries.  Except in this respect. 

Assuming this article is independent journalism...not sponsored by any Thai Govt agency. 

[mikebell]

How does Laos compare for home ownership: 800K bank deposit: annual visas?

[aussienam]

Enforcement of taxing incoming remittance after decades of allowing foreign expats to spend their retirement money without taxing it first, is now a huge disincentive for people thinking of retiring in Thailand. 

Less bang for your buck.  Literally gouging anywhere from roughly 15% upwards of the average pension.  

Yes, US Social Security citizens, military and certain civil government pensions are exempt from taxes with DTAs between their countries and Thailand.  Also certain retirement pensions are pre-taxed in some countries as well.

For the rest of us, like in Australia, our private pensions and old age government pensions are tax-exempt in our country, making us a target of full tax in Thailand.  We get a concession of the first 150,000 Thai Baht being tax-free. For me eventually I'll be taxed around 20% on my self-funded private pension (funded over the years with taxed dollars). 

So ⅕ of my retirement funds taken away from me as a 'penalty' to live in Thailand. A bitter pill to swallow, especially considering there has been no benefits offered in return. 

 

Add now the burden of not only filing a tax return in your own country, but one in Thailand. Also for example, Australian tax year ends 30 June, so I am guessing paying an accountant to do an interim half-year assessment to work out tax owing, tax offsets, credits etc = another accountant fee.  Add a Thai accountant as well to put it all together with documents certified from Australia as well.  More accountant fees (paid with taxed remittance funds of course LOL) and then submitting the tax to the revenue office.  Paying agents?  Probably due to language barriers = more money.  Remitting money to pay tax as well! Tax on tax!

 

Plus, we still face triple tiered hospital fees, park entry fees for farangs, no rights to independently open a business and work in Thailand for most, no health care benefits.  Where is the benefit?  ZERO. 

 

Buying property in Thailand - you'd be a fool to buy anything now considering remitting money to buy a property (unless you can prove it came from pre-taxed sources abroad) you face huge taxes up to 35%. 

Imagine, a 4 Million Baht property you buy from money remitted into Thailand (usual procedure) to face 35% tax on top! So add 1.4 Million Baht to the cost.  

You'd have to have rocks in your head. 

 

I get Thailand economy is in deficit, but targeting an expat portion of people who have been bringing money in to spend 100% on local people, directly supporting often poor segment of society, this will sadly end for many.  Sources of support from partners whose finances will be too stretched with this tax, will possibly stop.  

 

Spending time out of Thailand to circumvent tax laws, means spending money out of Thailand as well and not contributing to Thai economy, as well as exodus of expats and new expats looking at alternatives instead.  

 

A developing country deciding to enforce taxation like a first world country with zero benefits.  A deal breaker.  

 

Other tax-friendly South East Asian countries and other areas will soon benefit from this.  

 

For those already married, with kids etc in Thailand, you are unfortunately locked in.  The rest of us, we have an out.  Relationships will end sadly, but new ones can be formed elsewhere.  I love Thailand.  I really do.  But this is bad.  

[simon43]

4 minutes ago, mikebell said:

How does Laos compare for home ownership: 800K bank deposit: annual visas?

No land or home ownership. No requirement for 800k bank deposit, no retirement visa but annual work visas (without the need to work) issued by agents for about $600 USD.

[mikebell]

1 minute ago, simon43 said:

issued by agents for about $600 USD.

Thanks for your swift response.  Not sure of current $ rate but this looks to be over 21K baht!  I pay 1,900 pa.  My Laos escape route is cooling tho' the coffee is better.

[new2here]

8 minutes ago, aussienam said:

Enforcement of taxing incoming remittance after decades of allowing foreign expats to spend their retirement money without taxing it first, is now a huge disincentive for people thinking of retiring in Thailand. 

Less bang for your buck.  Literally gouging anywhere from roughly 15% upwards of the average pension.  

Yes, US Social Security citizens, military and certain civil government pensions are exempt from taxes with DTAs between their countries and Thailand.  Also certain retirement pensions are pre-taxed in some countries as well.

For the rest of us, like in Australia, our private pensions and old age government pensions are tax-exempt in our country, making us a target of full tax in Thailand.  We get a concession of the first 150,000 Thai Baht being tax-free. For me eventually I'll be taxed around 20% on my self-funded private pension (funded over the years with taxed dollars). 

So ⅕ of my retirement funds taken away from me as a 'penalty' to live in Thailand. A bitter pill to swallow, especially considering there has been no benefits offered in return.  We still face triple tiered hospital fees, park entry fees for farangs, no rights to independently open a business and work in Thailand for most, no health care benefits.  

Buying property in Thailand - you'd be a fool to buy anything now considering remitting money to buy a property (unless you can prove it came from pre-taxed sources abroad) you face huge taxes up to 35%. 

Imagine, a 4 Million Baht property you buy from money remitted into Thailand (usual procedure) to face 35% tax on top! So add 1.4 Million Baht to the cost.  

You'd have to have rocks in your head. 

 

I get Thailand economy is in deficit, but targeting an expat portion of people who have been bringing money in to spend 100% on local people, directly supporting often poor segment of society, this will sadly end for many.  Sources of support from partners whose finances will be too stretched with this tax, will possibly stop.  

 

Spending time out of Thailand to circumvent tax laws, means spending money out of Thailand as well and not contributing to Thai economy, as well as exodus of expats and new expats looking at alternatives instead.  

 

A developing country deciding to enforce taxation like a first world country with zero benefits.  A deal breaker.  

 

Other tax-friendly South East Asian countries and other areas will soon benefit from this.  

 

I agree that Thailands direction relative to what I’d call a “value proposition” for retirees is becoming less and less valuable … but… like it is with tourism.. rightly or wrongly.. thailand has had - for a long time - a near teflon coating .. and while they may implement X or Y rules that are clearly a net negative for a retirees, there’s STILL a large number who come.. so… i’d argue, so long as that trend doesn’t stop, there’s simply no incentive for Thailand to make it better…there will still be X thousands who come each year ….  plus, another point, retirees don’t vote.. and from a political ends, hitting a non-vote eligible segment of the people is a safer way to extract revenue than a voting segment. 

 

Short sighted? perhaps.. but again, it’s one that seems to have worked for Thailand for quite some time .. therefore I’d argue there’s no impending incentive for them to loosen up or change the rules in favor of a non-citizen. 

[Celsius]

they forgot to mention short time 

[new2here]

2 hours ago, jcmj said:

Thailand is bound to shoot itself in the foot again sooner or later. 

I don’t disagree.. but.. they’d have to do worse damage than other competing countries.. and the way I see it - specifically to SE Asia - despite all the negatives that Thailand has or has proposed - they still enjoy a “teflon” like coating… will that remain forever? doubt it.. but i think a lot of other countries will have to make bigger strides forward AND gain more name recognition/credibility.. an advantage that Thailand has enjoyed for a LONG time over their neighbors and regional Asian competitors. 

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, hotchilli said:

A retiree wanting to leave their native homeland and settle for good in another country will be looking for somewhere safe, a reasonable climate and above all else security for the their finances.

Also medical care at affordable prices

Thailand is falling short on all these issues.

True, and more so every year. I wonder if this isn't a deliberate push to make us go. Therefore the OP's headline could be wrong: Thailand doesn't "compete".

[Celsius]

I have million dolla..... I'm going back to Serbia. Better food and white women.

[CallumWK]

Going by the replies in this thread, all these members surely have moved on to better places already, because as far as I'm aware Thailand doesn't forbid them to leave.

 

Obviously Thailand isn't perfect, but neither was their home country, otherwise I wonder why they are here. And I'm sure that none of them has been in a neighboring country for an extended period of time (2 weeks doesn't qualify for that) or they would have known that Thailand isn't actually that bad.

[spidermike007]

Perhaps ex-pats should be given a bit more credit, in this formula? We do bring in alot of stable income.  Even the rural folks benefit. Alot of the nicer houses in the poorer farming areas were built with money from expats. Alot of trucks, cars and income is from expats. Countless business employing many. To say it is insignificant, is a blatant misunderstanding of Thai economics. Thousands of hotels, restaurants, countless airlines and many tour companies, also benefit. By comparison, an average ex-pat spends how much per month? I would say alot of us spend 50,000 to upwards of 100,000 baht a month. I know I do. No value in that? I know some live on less. However, since the average GDP of the nation is around $570, that means about 20,000 baht a month?

 

I think xenophobia is utterly rampant, in all segments of the government here, from the feds right on down to the local amphur. However, I do not think most Thai people are that way. I think most either like us, or are indifferent to us. Which I can handle. 

 

I think ex-pats should be treated with the kind of respect and acknowledgement we deserve.

 

We have decided to change our policies, and we now realize how much you guys bring to the table. An immigration officer will now come to your home to renew your visa, to show our appreciation, of your continued support.

 

You will only be required to

sign one form, and we will give you a five year, multiple entry visa. Free of charge.

And we will include a 10,000 baht voucher, good for any hotel in the country, for one year. 

 

Princely treatment. Thank you so much for helping to rescue our economy and our people. We appreciate it, and aim to show it for a change!

 

We are past the era of thugs like the big joke running immigration. 

 

And we apologize for all of the past abuse and lack of respect. 

[bob smith]

Thailand really needs to up their game and offer something stable and concrete to the retiree if they are serious about attracting the cream of the crop!

 

Contrary to popular belief, Thailand is NOT the center of the universe. Retirees and those with money have options. Thailand needs to learn how to compete for the cash cow by enticing them with stable, long-term options for retirement that includes property/land ownership, pathway to residence, reliable healthcare, a stable government and clean air to breathe.

 

At the moment Thailand is falling short in almost all of those criteria, so moving forward, with the likes of Cambodia and the Philippines offering attractive visa packages - I see the competition for the much needed retiree dollar growing ever more fierce by the day.

 

And don't forget, NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

 

If you think that well-healed retirees are going to jump at the chance to pay even MORE tax on their pension pots then you are sadly mistaken..

 

bob.

[JimHuaHin]

2 hours ago, jcmj said:

Thailand is bound to shoot itself in the foot again sooner or later. 

Thailand has already shot itself in the foot again, the only questions are how much damage has been done and will Thailand "walk" again?

 

From the post's heading we can guess that many countries recognize the advantages of having a vital largish expat retiree community, and the importance of maintaining that community through minimal bureaucratic burden - keep the customer satisfied.

 

Although Thailand is willing to adopt modern technology to advance and make life easier, there is a strong xenophobic nationalistic under-current which keeps Thailand rooted in a mythical "glorious" past.

 

 

[Powder]

11 hours ago, Homburg said:

"Thailand offers a multiplicity of long term visas......" All of which seems to be thoughtfully designed to deter as many applicants as possible. By contrast in Cambodia, retirees pay an annual (multiple entry) visa extension fee of c.$200 (c.$300 via an agent with no need to ever set foot in immigration, just drop off your passport with a pic, pay the fee and collect it in about a week). And that's it. No mountains of paperwork, no bank deposit, no re-entry permits, no 90 day reporting. Just come and go as you please. One page in the passport is used up each year for the visa (plus entry and exit stamps). One gripe: the annual extension is for 364 days only!

 

i completely agree with you. From this year on every expat staying longer then 180 days need to pay tax. And in return? Nothing changes. Actually Thailand is not competing at all.

Its like they focus more and more on tourists, instead of making things a little easier for retirees. No, its a one way. Some job to do for the Shinawatra family. 

[crazykopite]

3 hours ago, Mason45 said:

I'm sitting on the fence in regards to the tax issue. I'll just wait and see if it really does come into play. I've a feeling it won't as how would the public servants and the system handle this as most are stressed out now.

Me to I don’t think it will come to fruition however having lived  in the kingdom for 19 years I’m getting itchy feet so maybe it’s time to spend time in Thailand and spend time in another Asian country .Having not been back to Europe since 2009 I have little desire to go back even for a visit the Philippines has always been a place I wanted to visit and if I was to spend time there my UK pension would no longer be frozen .

[hotchilli]

40 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

True, and more so every year. I wonder if this isn't a deliberate push to make us go. Therefore the OP's headline could be wrong: Thailand doesn't "compete".

As you say, with the political uncertainty, the ever changing immigration requirements [regardless if you've purchased property] and changes in tax laws may well drive away some existing expats and put-off new ones.

Thailand is becoming less competitive with many better countries to hang your hat in.