Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Have you filed a P85 and obtained an NT tax code ?? 

No, I have filed an NRL (Non Resident Landlord) but when I 1st became Non-Tax Resident I still owned my own company in the UK & planned to return after a couple of years Plus My accountant always seems to make it so I don't pay any tax so never seriously looked into it.

 

Will be a different story when my Pensions kick in so should probably start to look into it, any pointers/links for where to get more information.

 

NB doesn't affect withheld tax on dividends anyway as this is never reclaimable irrespective of your Tax code.

Edited July 28 by Mike Teavee

[LivinLOS]

I dont believe you should pay any UK taxation other than arising from a fixed domestic asset (rental returns, forestry income, that kind of thing). I would need to check dividends, its not on my radar, possibly from a REIT I could imagine it being domestic source.. .. But people frequently think you need to pay uk tax on pensions etc and thats 100% incorrect. 
 

 

[LivinLOS]

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

There's been at least 1 report of somebody going into their Tax Office and asking if they needed to File as all of their income was not taxable by Thailand under a DTA & they were told that they didn't have to.

 

I think a lot of people will be filing non-taxable reports if this guidance was wrong (Plus a lot of US guys who thought they didn't need to file are going to be very upset). 

 

 

Local tax offices are frankly clueless.. I went to mine early in the year and they had so little understanding of the new rules, DTA's etc it was laughable.. Plus that WAS they way it was, now with the rule change, is that the way it is next year ?? I would liek them to put it in writing (I bet they resist that !!). 

This was recently published but still crucially does not adress the point we are both discussing. I agree with you that at this point we dont know, I tend to be suspicious enough to thing they will demand it, maybe not year 1, but over time as the noose tightens. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l0uv2e9anPg9tgs9WzuBTQSETFQhzqJu/view?usp=drive_link

[Mike Teavee]

11 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

I dont believe you should pay any UK taxation other than arising from a fixed domestic asset (rental returns, forestry income, that kind of thing). I would need to check dividends, its not on my radar, possibly from a REIT I could imagine it being domestic source.. .. But people frequently think you need to pay uk tax on pensions etc and thats 100% incorrect. 

It's not like you have 10,000 shares & they declare a 10p dividend so you get £1,000 & then they take 8.75% off you, the total dividend that the company declares to HMRC is approx. 10.96p & 8.75% is withheld so you get your 10p per share.

 

Years back when I had dividends sent to me as cheques they would come with a Tax Credit attached to them, but this tax is never reclaimable. 

 

https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/pt/d0f9057b-3d87-ee11-a81c-000d3a86dfe6#:~:text=Individuals who are non resident,is known as disregarded income).

Edited July 28 by Mike Teavee
add HMRC link

[Phulublub]

37 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

But people frequently think you need to pay uk tax on pensions etc and thats 100% incorrect. 

Would you like to quote a reputable source for that statment?  It appears to be directly at odds wth this:

 

Your UK residence status affects whether you need to pay tax in the UK on your foreign income.

Non-residents only pay tax on their UK income - they do not pay UK tax on their foreign income.

Residents normally pay UK tax on all their income, whether it’s from the UK or abroad. But there are special rules for UK residents whose permanent home (‘domicile’) is abroad.

From:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence#:~:text=Non-residents only pay tax,'domicile') is abroad.

and this:

You usually have to pay tax on your UK income even if you’re not a UK resident. Income includes things like:

• pension
• rental income
• savings interest
• wages

From:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by Phulublub

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, stat said:

Since when is there a 8.75% witholding tax on UK dividends? I always received my UK dividends tax free. Thanks!

 

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

The Tax is taken out before you get your Dividend and the rate/yield of the dividend is always quoted as the after Tax amount but Withheld tax has been considered as taken already.

 

This is taken from my 2023/24 UK Tax return prepared by my accountant... NB the final line "8.75% tax treated as paid on dividends from UK companies (Not Repayable)". 

 

 

 

 

The more I think about this, the more I'm thinking the "8.75% tax treated as paid" is more to do with the disregarded income rules and not the tax that is withheld on dividends by the Company so if that is the case then I have the answer to my question & do not have any UK tax that I could offset against Thai Tax on remitted dividend income. 

Edited July 28 by Mike Teavee

[stat]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

 

The more I think about this, the more I'm thinking the "8.75% tax treated as paid" is more to do with the disregarded income rules and not the tax that is withheld on dividends by the Company so if that is the case then I have the answer to my question & do not have any UK tax that I could offset against Thai Tax on remitted dividend income. 

Thanks for all the feedback regarding the UK tax situation! I think you "only" pay this 8.xx % as long as you are a UK tax resident. UK and Ireland +SG do not levy any withholding tax on dividends. Ireland is kind of strange cause it happens sometimes there but UK should be safe IMHO. Withholding tax is only for foreigners regarding the country of origin of the company. So a UK guy along with any other guy should not have to pay any withholding tax on a UK dividend if he is not a tax resident in the UK (for that year).

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by stat

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, stat said:

Thanks for all the feedback regarding the UK tax situation! I think you "only" pay this 8.xx % as long as you are a UK tax resident. UK and Ireland +SG do not levy any withholding tax on dividends. Ireland is kind of strange cause it happens sometimes there but UK should be safe IMHO. Withholding tax is only for foreigners regarding the country of origin of the company. So a UK guy along with any other guy should not have to pay any withholding tax on a UK dividend if he is not a tax resident in the UK (for that year).

Yeah, I think I've confused the Withheld Tax that a Company reports to HMRC (Pre IR35 us UK IT Freelance guys would set up a limited company & pay ourselves in Dividends to reduce Tax/National Insurance & part of the dividend would include Withheld Tax) & "Disregarded Income" that a Non UK Tax resident can claim...   
 

As mentioned, when I used to receive Dividends (from FTSE 100 companies) in the form of a Cheque they would come as a Dividend "Warrant" that showed how much "Tax had been Paid" but I now believe this to be by the Company & not the Individual so not relevant to Thai Tax discussions... 

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095723779#

 

Thanks to all for the discussion, I think remitting Dividend Income is off the table for me now unless I'm Non (Thai) Tax Resident or manage to get an LTR visa 😞

 

Edited July 28 by Mike Teavee

[dinga]

REMINDER:  this thread is about Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

For goodness sake, most of us have ZERO interest in matters UK.  You Poms should start your own thread and not (further) destroy this one for the rest of us.

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, dinga said:

REMINDER:  this thread is about Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

For goodness sake, most of us have ZERO interest in matters UK.  You Poms should start your own thread and not (further) destroy this one for the rest of us.

WTF... We were discussing tax on remitted income (granted, from the UK but we have the same questions as you Aussies) so absolutely on point for this thread. 

 

LMFAO, Australia is one of the few countries that does have a Withheld Tax (Franking) on Dividends so that discussion should have been of interest to you.... Assuming you have any.

 

PS. This thread was started by a Brit so maybe you Dingos should go start your own thread...

 

 

Edited July 29 by Mike Teavee

[dinga]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

WTF... We were discussing tax on remitted income (granted, from the UK but we have the same questions as you Aussies) so absolutely on point for this thread. 

 

LMFAO, Australia is one of the few countries that does have a Withheld Tax (Franking) on Dividends so that discussion should have been of interest to you.... Assuming you have any.

 

 

Take off the blinkers and re-read the last page of threads (pretty well 100% UK tax discussions).  Start your own topic for those of you interested

Edited July 29 by dinga
spelling

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, dinga said:

Take off the blinkers and re-read the last page of threads (pretty well 100% UK tax discussions).  Start your own topic for those of you interested

Sorry too late with my edit, this thread was started by a Brit but thus far has been open to all for discussions, lets not let one page of discussions about a single country spoil it for all of us (Yes I am a Brit but I'm also interested in how US SS is treated & especially dividends in Australia).... Just scroll on if the post is not of interest to you. 

 

It's inevitable that people will go into details about their own circumstances but I think we can all learn something from each other so would be a shame to have this kind of discussion in a country specific thread

 

 

[dinga]

5 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Sorry too late with my edit, this thread was started by a Brit but thus far has been open to all for discussions, lets not let one page of discussions about a single country spoil it for all of us (Yes I am a Brit but I'm also interested in how US SS is treated & especially dividends in Australia).... Just scroll on if the post is not of interest to you. 

 

It's inevitable that people will go into details about their own circumstances but I think we can all learn something from each other so would be a shame to have this kind of discussion in a country specific thread

 

 

PS. This thread was started by a Brit so maybe you Dingos should go start your own thread...

 

Typical - Poms always the "moral winners".  

 

Pragmatism & reality is not a feature -  this thread is already 47 pages long, and has been hijacked with longwinded non-relevant commentary.  Why expect folks to page through so much irrelevancy on the basis that you think it of universal interest?

 

Simple solution - create a new UK thread [and other countries of individual interest] and let us decide whether to follow or not 

 

[sirineou]

Seven months into this, Thousands of replies, and we still don't have a clear understanding  of what all this mean. 

Typical Thailand 

[Mike Teavee]

3 minutes ago, dinga said:

PS. This thread was started by a Brit so maybe you Dingos should go start your own thread...

 

Typical - Poms always the "moral winners".  

 

Pragmatism & reality is not a feature -  this thread is already 47 pages long, and has been hijacked with longwinded non-relevant commentary.  Why expect folks to page through so much irrelevancy on the basis that you think it of universal interest?

 

Simple solution - create a new UK thread [and other countries of individual interest] and let us decide whether to follow or not 

 

 

How is it non-relevant if we're discussing Tax on remitted income? What part of the thread title said "Australian Tax Discussions Only"?

 

If you want to start a thread discussing "Tax on remitted Australian Income" fill your boots, but why do you want to hijack a generic thread? 

 

Edited July 29 by Mike Teavee

[dinga]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

How is it non-relevant if we're discussing Tax on remitted income? What part of the thread title said "Australian Tax Discussions Only"?

 

If you want to start a thread discussing "Tax on remitted Australian Income" fill your boots, but why do you want to hijack a generic thread? 

 

You are delusional (since when have I wanted to discuss remitted Australian Income?)

 

Enough for me - no point in further arguing the bleeding obvious and adding to non-relevant content when I sought to achieve the opposite. 

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, dinga said:

You are delusional (since when have I wanted to discuss remitted Australian Income?)

 

Enough for me - no point in further arguing the bleeding obvious and adding to non-relevant content when I sought to achieve the opposite. 

Ok, so you're gripe is that we shouldn't discuss UK remitted income on here... Understood.... 

 

I'm off for a game of chess with a pigeon... 

 

 

Edited July 29 by Mike Teavee

[atpeace]

The thread that keep me laughing.  Keep it up PLEASE!!!!  As for me, I'm worrying endlessly about a an old tax law that might or might not be enforced and that might or might not impact farangs and that might or might not ....  Basically you guys have aquired more info since the first thread last year  with the purpose it seems to become more in the dark.   Basically as Mike Lister stated recently - It's Groundhog Day.

 

This is some entertaining shttt!

[motdaeng]

31 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Seven months into this, Thousands of replies, and we still don't have a clear understanding  of what all this mean. 

Typical Thailand 

 

how can we have a clear understanding when most of the provincial tax office staff probably don't have a clue either?

 

the whole thing is much more complicated and may end in chaos. specially when it comes to interpreting the TDA,

gains on stock shares, house sales, savings etc. 

 

[sirineou]

15 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

how can we have a clear understanding when most of the provincial tax office staff probably don't have a clue either?

 

the whole thing is much more complicated and may end in chaos. specially when it comes to interpreting the TDA,

gains on stock shares, house sales, savings etc. 

 

They better get their act together we only have 5 months remaining in the Year I am transfering funds to Thailand that I don't even know how they will taxed, or even if they will be taxed at all. My next door neighbor wants to sell the lot next to our house. I would love to buy it. But I an afraid to transfer the funds, because I don't know how it will be taxed. Once again they are shooting themselves on the foot.

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

 Once again they are shooting themselves on the foot.

 

you are 100% right, but they don't care ...

[TroubleandGrumpy]

17 hours ago, motdaeng said:

i completely agree with you on this ...

 

however, i think the TRD will respond, address questions, and clarify things after you submit the tax refund for 2024.

for the moment, the basics for filing the tax return seem to be clear, but beyond that, there is a lot of uncertainty and speculation ...

in the end, the TRD will make the final decision, whether we like it or not ...

 

therefore, my advice is to keep it simple and play it safe for this year, like transferring only so much assessable income

so you don't have to pay any tax for 2024 ...

"after you submit the tax refund for 2024."

 

Unfortunately you are probably correct. Thailand has a Taxation Department that changes the rules, and then clarifies what they meant and how it will affect people, after people have lodged a tax return.  It is like living in a dream and you think 'this cannot be happening'. But at least with a dream you can wake up.

 

Your advice is dead right - dont put yourself in the situation where you have to lodge a tax return - or if you might be there, think of how you can not lodge a tax return.  I for one have advice from a tax consultant in writing that because I do not have to pay any income taxes after TEDA, then I do not have to lodge a tax return - along with 30+ million tax residents of Thailand. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

I think this is an easy determination.. 'Assessable' income is the amount sent in if you are tax resident, thats different from 'liability' to pay.. 

Do you need to file if not liable ? Or do you need to file asessable income anyway.. To be determined. 

Not for me - I have advice 'Not' - ask tax consultants and one might give you that advice too. 

[jwest10]

34 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

"after you submit the tax refund for 2024."

 

Unfortunately you are probably correct. Thailand has a Taxation Department that changes the rules, and then clarifies what they meant and how it will affect people, after people have lodged a tax return.  It is like living in a dream and you think 'this cannot be happening'. But at least with a dream you can wake up.

 

Your advice is dead right - dont put yourself in the situation where you have to lodge a tax return - or if you might be there, think of how you can not lodge a tax return.  I for one have advice from a tax consultant in writing that because I do not have to pay any income taxes after TEDA, then I do not have to lodge a tax return - along with 30+ million tax residents of Thailand. 

Yes, I was going to post a general reply and have stated before been to my local tax office 3 times to try and establish what is happening and needless to say they have no clue on the overall situation on this policy and you would have seen all the differing experts all saying different things.
Yes, it appears the present Government and the Revenue do not understand it either but people suggesting forms will be available in November/December if and when this is true.
It also appears and this is not unusual the Government seem to be divided on this issue.

I have spoken to a few Thai friends who indeed file a tax form and they do not understand it either.
This PM might not survive in August but also listened to a Thai lawyer and a Thai interviewer speaking in English, just yesterday Sunday and trying to clarify things and noticed the lawyer often smiling (smirking?) as if there are far wider issues.
Also, they have find the 10k wallet giveaway and where is this money coming from?
Yes, and should be from the filthy rich both ex-pats and Thais but no they are not being targeted and the same the world over.

Mike Lister and a few others have been very helpful but it seems that everyone agrees and we should wait (how long ?)  for official announcements and not do anything but do our own calculations.
Thoughts?
Yes, indeed we are on page 47 already on this part 11.
What to do just sit back but in time it will be clearer as if lol

Finally, most of us only have no tax or very little tax approx 3k at most while trying to look after our wonderful Thai families and yes hare enough on frozen state pensions and the like.

Edited July 29 by jwest10

[sometimewoodworker]

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

I think this is an easy determination.. 'Assessable' income is the amount sent in if you are tax resident, thats different from 'liability' to pay.. 

you really should read the rules and understand them before commenting.

 

1) given that you are a tax resident.

 

2) scenario 1; you remit 2 million baht from money held prior to 1/1/2024.

you have no assessable income. You have no tax liability and have no need to file a return 

 

3) scenario 2; you remit 2 million baht of rental returns that were generated in 2024 you have 2 million baht of assessable income. You will have various allowances the reduce the amount of the assessable income that will be taxed

4) scenario 3; you remit 1.75 million from money held prior to 1/1/2024.  plus 250k baht of rental returns that were generated in 2024. you have 250k baht of assessable income. You almost certainly have enough allowances that all the assessable income is covered. You have no tax liability and have no need to file a return 

 

 

money remitted to Thailand when you are a tax resident is not automatically assessable income, it depends on the source of the money.

[NoDisplayName]

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

I think this is an easy determination.. 'Assessable' income is the amount sent in if you are tax resident, thats different from 'liability' to pay.. 

Do you need to file if not liable ? Or do you need to file asessable income anyway.. To be determined. 

 

I believe that to be incorrect.

 

The funds remitted is the amount you sent to Thailand, resident or not.  Not all remitted funds are assessable.

 

Assessable funds are amounts for which you may have a tax liability, if you are tax resident.  Non-residents may remit any amount yet have no foreign source assessable funds.  A government pension is remitted, and under most DTA's not assessable.

 

In most cases, TRD allows us to self-determine whether remitted funds are assessable, and if no tax due then no filing required.  My anecdotal experience so far (Bangkok 2018, Korat 2024) is that tax office will accept the term "savings" in response to what was remitted.

 

That's all fine until someone gets a call from the nice folks in the tax office requesting a personal interview, which so far has not happened.

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, dinga said:

REMINDER:  this thread is about Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

For goodness sake, most of us have ZERO interest in matters UK.  You Poms should start your own thread and not (further) destroy this one for the rest of us.

I agree. 

Same for the Yanks. 

Hundreds of posts about Social Security, IRA and superannuation (or were these the Kiwis or Canadians?)

People should discuss their home country tax laws in separate threads,  that would make the Thai tax threads a lot more readable).

 

Otherwise I feel tempted to discuss in detail the taxation of my political donations in Mongolia.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

it appears the present Government and the Revenue do not understand it either

Thai’s in general are extremely poor at hypothetical questions, there are certainly some who are good at it but they are unlikely to be in your local office. So you are biassing your points without full knowledge.

 

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

have stated before been to my local tax office 3 times to try and establish what is happening and needless to say they have no clue on the overall situation on this policy

 

See above

 

they are working on year 2023 known situation and are competent in their work. 
Year 2024 hasn’t been published yet and changes are possible before publication so what it the point, for them, of doing anything, giving advice on  a situation that could change so making anything done or advice given wrong so causing them to loose face.

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

I have spoken to a few Thai friends who indeed file a tax form and they do not understand it either.

 See above, but also how is that different from the situation in the U.K. for example.

 

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

people suggesting forms will be available in November/December if and when this is true.

It is true for sure, as they will be required starting 1/1/2025

 

Opinion; the tax forms will change very little. The advice supplied to accompany the forms is a different case and there will be important additions/changes.

 

It is certainly possible even probable that the English version will come out at sometime after the Thai ones.

 

 

Edited July 29 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

39 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

The funds remitted is the amount you sent to Thailand, resident or not.  Not all remitted funds are assessable.

True

39 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Assessable funds are amounts for which you may have a tax liability, if you are tax resident.  Non-residents may remit any amount yet have no foreign source assessable funds. 

True

 

39 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

A government pension is remitted, and under most DTA's not assessable.

Not true, depending on your definition of government pension.

USA SSpensions are exempt 

U.K. state pensions payed by the government are all assessable

U.K. occupational pensions from state employment payed by the government are mostly/all exempt 

So the vast majority of payed by the government pensions are assessable

46 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

In most all cases, TRD allows requires us to self-determine whether remitted funds are assessable, and if no tax due then no filing required

With word changes, true

 

49 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

That's all fine until someone gets a call from the nice folks in the tax office requesting a personal interview, which so far has not happened.

I would phrase it differently, as in ‘ “decides to audit you”

but in principle true

[LivinLOS]

18 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Would you like to quote a reputable source for that statment?  It appears to be directly at odds wth this:

 

Your UK residence status affects whether you need to pay tax in the UK on your foreign income.

Non-residents only pay tax on their UK income - they do not pay UK tax on their foreign income.

Residents normally pay UK tax on all their income, whether it’s from the UK or abroad. But there are special rules for UK residents whose permanent home (‘domicile’) is abroad.

From:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence#:~:text=Non-residents only pay tax,'domicile') is abroad.

and this:

You usually have to pay tax on your UK income even if you’re not a UK resident. Income includes things like:

• pension
• rental income
• savings interest
• wages

From:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad

 

 

 

Pensions 100% not, I used to supply SIPP pensions from a previous business and the process is file a P85, obtain an NT tax code, do not get taxed at source. 

The only caveat for the UK is armed forces pensions and some senior civil servants which ARE always taxed at source. 

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/tax-when-you-live-abroad#

 

Quote

If you’re not a UK resident, you don’t usually pay UK tax on your pension. But you might have to pay tax in the country you live in. There are a few exceptions - for example, UK civil service pensions will always be taxed in the UK.