Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/13/2025 at 3:51 PM, MikeN said:

Westpac..."we think you are living overseas, prove otherwise or we freeze your bank account until you supply tax ID, and fill in these FATCA/CRS forms". Also have a backup account with NAB, who haven't said a thing...yet.

Strange. 

 

I also have a Westpac account.  I didn't receive any correspondence like that. 

 

What I do get from them, every few years, is a request to update my tax residency status.  Resident / Non Resident.  I say I am a resident for tax purposes.  I don't hear anything back about it for  few years until they ask the same question. 

 

Australia is proposing to change its current 90 year old laws around tax residency to a time based and physical presence model, the same as Thailand, but for 183 days.  This will take away ALL the loopholes, and non resident tax is 30% from $0 to $135,000.  

 

It's been well debated in the Australia forum, but basically, the aged pension is deemed to be an income, there is no tax free threshold in the non resident tax brackets, the aged pension is not covered by a DTA, if you are outside of Australia for 183 days you will be deemed a non resident for tax purposes, non resident tax start at 30% from zero dollars,  there are no exemptions or means testing mentioned in the proposed changes.  Put all of this together, and make of it what you will.    

[InlandSea]

Hoping you a lot figure this out by March of 2026.

[redwood1]

pattayamail

 

http://www.pattayamail.com/news

 

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/pattaya-expats-receive-updates-on-overseas-remittances-and-income-tax-487289

 

I am pretty sure Thomas Carden is not a Thai citizen......So Mr Carden  maybe should be sent to jail for doing a job reserved for Thais....Giving Tax advice......

 

Not to mention its in bad taste to be pumping your company  while giving said tax advice....

 

And why does not Mr. Carden put out a disclaimer.....That all his advice is HIS opinion....?

 

Also if Mr Carden does not know if buying a condo with money brought into Thailand is taxable or not, he should not be giving  tax advice....

 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/pattaya-expats-receive-updates-on-overseas-remittances-and-income-tax-487289

 

From that link I note:

 

"Patcha explained that some expats were not required to obtain a Thai tax identification number or fill in a tax return. These were foreigners present in Thailand for less than 180 days in the calendar year 2024, those who had not transmitted cash from abroad, those who had transferred only income they had earned up to 31 December 2023 and holders of the 10-year Long Term Residence (LTR) Visa."

 

...

 That supports the view of some that associated foreugn income for those quoted cases  that the income ftom those cases are not assessable and are nominally not to be used as justification for a tax ID. .. 

 

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

Also if Mr Carden does not know if buying a condo with money brought into Thailand is taxable or not, he should not be giving  tax advice....

 

I speculate here that perhaps this may still be under discussion internal to the Thai RD.

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/16/2025 at 12:39 PM, redwood1 said:

I am pretty sure Thomas Carden is not a Thai citizen......So Mr Carden  maybe should be sent to jail for doing a job reserved for Thais....Giving Tax advice......

How do YOU know Mr. Carden is even in Thailand?

[4myr]

On 1/16/2025 at 9:26 PM, oldcpu said:

 

From that link I note:

 

"Patcha explained that some expats were not required to obtain a Thai tax identification number or fill in a tax return. These were foreigners present in Thailand for less than 180 days in the calendar year 2024, those who had not transmitted cash from abroad, those who had transferred only income they had earned up to 31 December 2023 and holders of the 10-year Long Term Residence (LTR) Visa."

 

...

 That supports the view of some that associated foreugn income for those quoted cases  that the income ftom those cases are not assessable and are nominally not to be used as justification for a tax ID. .. 

 

Patcha did not mention DTA exemptions as being non assessable or non declarable. Is this an opening for applying Carden’s tax filing services? As Carden’s remark to file an alert does not make sense to me, as there is no way to enter it into the form

 

Answering questions, Mr Carden said that the Thai government had promised to honor double taxation treaties with 61 countries. However, these were all unique and could not be used as some kind of blanket immunity. He suggested that an expat should refer to the applicable terms in the submitted tax form by way of a caveat or alert.

 

 

[Jingthing]

A minor update regarding an issue I've been very interested in -- the taxation of IRA accounts and 401K by Thailand.

expattaxthailand has been crystal clear about this though some members are saying something wildly different than this:

 

Those are seen as private pensions.

Disbursements are fully accessable if remitted to Thailand as a Thai tax resident

Balance of such accounts on December 31, 2023 completely irrelevant.

Accounting for disbursements on a cost basis profit analysis of specific holdings as you would for a non retirement investment account is NOT a thing.

 

What is my the minor update I speak of?

An assertion that the information they give is all run by the revenue department for confirmation of accuracy.

 

Take it or leave it. 

Hoping it isn't like that doesn't cut it.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Balance of such accounts on December 31, 2023 completely irrelevant.

Jingthing, we'll never agree on this -- so I guess you'll pay taxes on any remittances from your IRA, and I won't.

 

And, should I ever be audited, I'll flash the Por 162 definition:

Quote

Order No. Por.162/2566, issued on November 20, 2023, provides further clarification. It states that the new interpretation should not apply to foreign-sourced income earned before January 1, 2024.

 

All the money in my Traditional IRA was foreign sourced income. Most were the original income deposits several decades ago. Subsequently, as the IRA was in securities, every year unrealized capital gains were "realized," i.e., became income. However, as they were in an IRA, they were reinvested. Thus, as of Dec 31, 2023 -- my IRA consisted totally of foreign sourced income -- which is what Por 162 is about.

 

I know Expatthai tax says, nope, that income must be in a bank account to qualify for Por 162 exemption. Don't know where they got that from -- maybe at a cocktail party with TRD agents. But their say-so ain't good enough for me. So, any other agencies out there, that you've heard of, saying the same thing about only bank accounts?

 

I would think, if you plan to pay taxes to Thailand on your remitted IRA proceeds, that you would get some reassurance from Expatthai tax. Would love to hear their side of this story.

[newbee2022]

On 1/4/2025 at 4:02 AM, anchadian said:

Revenue Department urges tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31. Expats with over 180 days in Thailand must submit returns for income remitted in 2024. New tax rules require filing electronically, with possible refunds for early submissions.

 

The Director-General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called on taxpayers to file their end-of-year returns for 2024. This will be the first year that all foreign residents in Thailand are included. Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable. The income tax payable by each foreigner depends on the nature of such income and the tax treaty with their country of origin. The question now is how many foreign taxpayers will file returns between now and March 31st. After that, it remains to be seen if follow-up actions will be taken against those who fail to do so. A Thai Examiner survey in 2024 showed that 16% of people plan to take professional advice, while a full 58% would not file a return at all.

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2025/01/03/revenue-department-boss-calls-on-tax-residents-in-thailand-to-file-2024-runs-by-the-march-31st-deadline/

Copy Paste nonsense

[Presnock]

On 1/4/2025 at 4:02 AM, anchadian said:

Revenue Department urges tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31. Expats with over 180 days in Thailand must submit returns for income remitted in 2024. New tax rules require filing electronically, with possible refunds for early submissions.

 

The Director-General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called on taxpayers to file their end-of-year returns for 2024. This will be the first year that all foreign residents in Thailand are included. Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable. The income tax payable by each foreigner depends on the nature of such income and the tax treaty with their country of origin. The question now is how many foreign taxpayers will file returns between now and March 31st. After that, it remains to be seen if follow-up actions will be taken against those who fail to do so. A Thai Examiner survey in 2024 showed that 16% of people plan to take professional advice, while a full 58% would not file a return at all.

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2025/01/03/revenue-department-boss-calls-on-tax-residents-in-thailand-to-file-2024-runs-by-the-march-31st-deadline/

Obviously either a misquote or wrong translation of the quote.  Havng listened to the RD officials on the expattaxthailand interview, not all expats/foreigners will have to file for taxes on remittances if those remittances are not assessable by the TRD criteria.  However, I do guess that at some point if the govt follows what Taksin wants i.e. negative income tax for all of Thailand then expats as well as poor working Thais will be required to get a tax id number possibly and file so that the poorer Thais can be more free money from the taxed richer folks.  This is only my opinion of course and since TIT there are a lot of other possibilities.  

[Presnock]

On 1/4/2025 at 9:43 AM, The Cyclist said:

 

This actually makes sense. It is what I thought at the the time of the initial announcements.

 

Doesn't make any sense to have people doing their own thing, certainly with monies that are moving across borders and trying to stamp out tax evasion / avoidance.

See my above, TRD officials, one a tax lawyer too in the expat interview claim that this is not true!

[nickmondo]

Taking no notice of this.

Nothing is going to happen

[Thingamabob]

On 1/4/2025 at 4:02 AM, anchadian said:

Revenue Department urges tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31. Expats with over 180 days in Thailand must submit returns for income remitted in 2024. New tax rules require filing electronically, with possible refunds for early submissions.

 

The Director-General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called on taxpayers to file their end-of-year returns for 2024. This will be the first year that all foreign residents in Thailand are included. Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable. The income tax payable by each foreigner depends on the nature of such income and the tax treaty with their country of origin. The question now is how many foreign taxpayers will file returns between now and March 31st. After that, it remains to be seen if follow-up actions will be taken against those who fail to do so. A Thai Examiner survey in 2024 showed that 16% of people plan to take professional advice, while a full 58% would not file a return at all.

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2025/01/03/revenue-department-boss-calls-on-tax-residents-in-thailand-to-file-2024-runs-by-the-march-31st-deadline/

Note the source, the Thai Examiner. Limited credibility based on past experience. 

[jmd8800]

What little I read about this leaves me wondering why there is no mention of Thai accountants vying for this chunk of business. I have asked my friendly banker here in Chiang Mai if he knows of any Thai accountants that would file taxes for me and he looked at me kind of funny. Every other Thai I ask that I think might know doesn't know either.

 

I'm guessing that the tax system for Thais is very simple compared to Western countries, so there is little need for individual tax filing assistance. But, I would think there would be a few Thai accountants that would like this business.

[black tabby12345]

On 1/4/2025 at 4:21 AM, Rampant Rabbit said:

no thanks..........

 

Hard for me to determine: Which button to press,  Thumb UP or Laugh LOL.

 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, nickmondo said:

Taking no notice of this.

Nothing is going to happen

A lot of people said that about cannabis and casinos. One's already here, the other is on the way, and so is this tax. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, jmd8800 said:

What little I read about this leaves me wondering why there is no mention of Thai accountants vying for this chunk of business. I have asked my friendly banker here in Chiang Mai if he knows of any Thai accountants that would file taxes for me and he looked at me kind of funny. Every other Thai I ask that I think might know doesn't know either.

 

I'm guessing that the tax system for Thais is very simple compared to Western countries, so there is little need for individual tax filing assistance. But, I would think there would be a few Thai accountants that would like this business.

Plenty of youtube videos from legal and accounting firms about it.  Many have been posted on this website / forum. 

 

Many members believe they are just trying to get more business through their doors, telling foreigners they have to file.

 

Check them out and make your own opinion about them.   

 

 

[Jingthing]

23 hours ago, JimGant said:

Jingthing, we'll never agree on this -- so I guess you'll pay taxes on any remittances from your IRA, and I won't.

 

And, should I ever be audited, I'll flash the Por 162 definition:

 

All the money in my Traditional IRA was foreign sourced income. Most were the original income deposits several decades ago. Subsequently, as the IRA was in securities, every year unrealized capital gains were "realized," i.e., became income. However, as they were in an IRA, they were reinvested. Thus, as of Dec 31, 2023 -- my IRA consisted totally of foreign sourced income -- which is what Por 162 is about.

 

I know Expatthai tax says, nope, that income must be in a bank account to qualify for Por 162 exemption. Don't know where they got that from -- maybe at a cocktail party with TRD agents. But their say-so ain't good enough for me. So, any other agencies out there, that you've heard of, saying the same thing about only bank accounts?

 

I would think, if you plan to pay taxes to Thailand on your remitted IRA proceeds, that you would get some reassurance from Expatthai tax. Would love to hear their side of this story.

They have communicated the situation with no ambiguity.

I have detailed that and yes I have gotten followup detailed clarifications.

They are claiming (believe it or not) the their information on issues like this is cleared with Thai revenue.

It's not as if I like the information but I tend to find them as a source more credible than your theorizing. 

Another thing which I think adds credibility to that firm is they are definitely NOT get a TIN or everyone must file pushers!

They very clearly give information on cases where you should NOT get a TIN, and not file.

Such as only remitting exempt income, etc.

 

 

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

They have communicated the situation with no ambiguity.

I have detailed that and yes I have gotten followup detailed clarifications.

They are claiming (believe it or not) the their information on issues like this is cleared with Thai revenue.

It's not as if I like the information but I tend to find them as a source more credible than your theorizing. 

Another thing which I think adds credibility to that firm is they are definitely NOT get a TIN or everyone must file pushers!

They very clearly give information on cases where you should NOT get a TIN, and not file.

Such as only remitting exempt income, etc.

 

 

 

Really?

 

Ask them if they've ever filed a return that taxes foreign sourced IRA income remitted to Thailand.

 

How many of these returns have they filed, and what is the result. 

 

If not, why not?

 

The rules haven't changed, only the year of earnt income has been adjusted. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Really?

 

Ask them if they've ever filed a return that taxes foreign sourced IRA income remitted to Thailand.

 

How many of these returns have they filed, and what is the result. 

 

If not, why not?

 

The rules haven't changed, only the year of earnt income has been adjusted. 

 

 

Let's get real.

Probably zero expat retirees with no in Thailand income has filed before.

The information given is about the reading of the DTA about pensions.

Absolutely what has changed was about the timing, but like it or not (I don't like it) there is almost no doubt the starting this year such expat retirees with only remitted accessable income to show WILL be filing and most likely such filing will sooner or later be ENFORCED. 

 

[anrcaccount]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Let's get real.

Probably zero expat retirees with no in Thailand income has filed before.

 

Agreed.

 

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

The information given is about the reading of the DTA about pensions.

Absolutely what has changed was about the timing, but like it or not (I don't like it) there is almost no doubt the starting this year such expat retirees with only remitted accessable income to show WILL be filing and most likely such filing will sooner or later be ENFORCED. 

 

 

Only because people like you are lining up to self-enforce.

 

In a complete lack of any real clarity from the relevant authorities, not only are you trying to understand and make up the rules, but you're also then looking to enforce them, upon yourself.

 

Surely, "JING LOR" , is an appropriate term for this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Agreed.

 

 

Only because people like you are lining up to self-enforce.

 

In a complete lack of any real clarity from the relevant authorities, not only are you trying to understand and make up the rules, but you're also then looking to enforce them, upon yourself.

 

Surely, "JING LOR" , is an appropriate term for this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. Not me.

I am not self enforcing anything.

I am not rushing to get a TIN and I detest the commercial and otherwise pushers saying we all need them.

I know I don't need a TIN yet based on my personal situation.

If how I read the IRA policy is correct I will need one during a later year.

By then I presume that rule will be much better clarified and I do predict expat retirees are that have accessable income are going to be more or less forced into the system.

But don't accuse me of pushing it. I hate it but we don't always get what we want. 

[anrcaccount]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No. Not me.

I am not self enforcing anything.

I am not rushing to get a TIN and I detest the commercial and otherwise pushers saying we all need them.

I know I don't need a TIN yet based on my personal situation.

If how I read the IRA policy is correct I will need one during a later year.

By then I presume that rule will be much better clarified and I do predict expat retirees are that have accessable income are going to be more or less forced into the system.

But don't accuse me of pushing it. I hate it but we don't always get what we want. 

 

Fair enough, I take your point/s. 

 

Talking about it isn't a problem, you seem to have a sensible strategy.

 

I am still yet to see a single report on any individual actually paying Thai tax on remitted foreign source income , let's see.

 

 

 

 

[oldcpu]

33 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Absolutely what has changed was about the timing, but like it or not (I don't like it) there is almost no doubt the starting this year such expat retirees with only remitted accessable income to show WILL be filing and most likely such filing will sooner or later be ENFORCED. 

 

 

Where the discussions and disagreements tend to be is which income is assessable and which income is exempt (for the purpose of the tax calculation) [and hence not to be on a tax return form].

 

For a while, there were some who were saying exempt remitted income from before 1-January-2024 was assessable and had to included on a tax return (and then deducted) and that a tax return from those where that was their only funds brought into Thailand had to still file a tax return.   I believe they are close now to have been proven wrong.

 

Such exempt remitted income/savings (pre-Jan-2024) has been stated not to be on a tax return submission by some of the youtube tax advisor(?) / educators(?)) where further one or two noted that no Thai income tax return is required if the only source of year 2024 remitted funds to Thailand is income/savings from before 1-Jan-2024.

 

And ... in the most part, those who claimed such (por-161/162 income/savings had to be on a tax return with the same income/savings then deducted on the same tax form (where there was no place on a tax return to deduct such)) are now in the most part silent in regard to funds covered by por-161/162 (or they have switched their view). 

 

Still - the discussions as to what is assessable income (re: income not taxable by Thailand due to some (not all)) DTAs continues (despite there being NO PLACE on either English nor Thai language Thai tax forms for DTA exempt income to be listed as exemptions).

 

I suspect we will see opinions evolve on the demarcation for assessable income (in regards to income exempt for the purpose of tax calculation).

 

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Fair enough, I take your point/s. 

 

Talking about it isn't a problem, you seem to have a sensible strategy.

 

I am still yet to see a single report on any individual actually paying Thai tax on remitted foreign source income , let's see.

 

 

 

 

I think some people have reported doing that here. Starting this tax season for last year.

[The Cyclist]

16 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

I am still yet to see a single report on any individual actually paying Thai tax on remitted foreign source income , let's see.

 

The main issue at the moment, is not about paying tax. Its trying to get a straight answer on the need to actually file.

 

And I have read at least one poster filing and receiving a no tax to pay certificate.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

am still yet to see a single report on any individual actually paying Thai tax on remitted foreign source income , let's see.

 

The deadline hasn't been reached.  It's the 31st March. 

[rickudon]

The revenue department boss needs to first tell his staff they are taxing all those expat pensioners, because most of his staff think we do not need TINs or to file!

THEN he needs to train all his staff on how to advise farangs (in English and maybe dozens of other languages) how to file, and how to deal with income covered by the 31 double taxation agreements.

 

IF he can do that, THEN we can file our taxes.......