Pension Tax Filing Report - Rejected

[NoDisplayName]

51 minutes ago, Andycoops said:

A friend of mine filed and was told to pay 40,000baht on his pension transfers from the UK to Thailand, his only source of income, from last year 2024.

 

They wanted him to pay there and then but he refused.

 

How much did he transfer?

Is his pension assessable/taxable?

What was his individual TEDA?

 

From tax tables, looks like he brought in around a million baht.

If Thailand has taxation rights, he owes tax.

 

[offset]

If you had saving from the previous years you brought that over which was not taxable and was loop hole they have now stopped

[offset]

5 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

How much did he transfer?

Is his pension assessable/taxable?

What was his individual TEDA?

 

From tax tables, looks like he brought in around a million baht.

If Thailand has taxation rights, he owes tax.

 

If he came from the UK his pensions should have been taxed so he do not need to pay tax on them in Thailand 

[OJAS]

5 hours ago, federicoP said:

Since the Swiss pension, unless it is a state pension, is taxable in Thailand, I would strongly suggest you do the calculations and check if your friend has to pay anything.

 

@patrickl + double-check what the Thailand/Switzerland DTA might have to say on the matter:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/switzerland_e.pdf

 

[soalbundy]

Just now, anrcaccount said:

 

The thing is, if you think you're liable this year, you were liable every other previous year your pension was remitted directly to Thailand. 

 

All those years you did nothing, right, and no consequences.

 

On a practical and operational level there has been no change from the TRD and the "new interpretation" is simply theory at this point.

 

Status quo remains. 

 

 

That would be nice but I think the TRD see's this differently otherwise they wouldn't be going to the trouble of printing tax forms in English and giving out info regarding taxation. Ignoring them is a risk, it maybe that this will all fall by the wayside during the course of this year but conversely they may up their ante an in the next year they will want to know why you haven't paid tax last year. I'm not a poker player.

[Sophon]

1 hour ago, bamnutsak said:

 

Did you have accessable income in 2024?

 

How much did you end up paying in income tax?

 

 

 

Yes, I had assessable income in 2024 and included it on my PND90 filing.

No, I didn't end up paying any tax, as my income is under the sum of deductions and exempt income that I am entitled to:
THB 100,000 expenses deduction

THB 60,000 personal allowance
THB 60,000 spouse allowance
First THB 150,000 of net taxable income is taxed at zero %.
So a total of THB 370,000 that is not taxed.

 

When I turn 65, which is when my main pensions start to pay out, I get an additional THB 190,000 deduction, but I am not quite there yet.

[Yumthai]

15 minutes ago, offset said:

If you had saving from the previous years you brought that over which was not taxable and was loop hole they have now stopped

TRD has never checked in the past if remitted money was earned or not during the same year. It's unreal to think they're gonna now magically be able and willing to check the tax assessibility (knowing perfectly all tax exemptions/DTAs) of all foreign remittances of their (millions of) tax residents.

[offset]

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

TRD has never checked in the past if remitted money was earned or not during the same year. It's unreal to think they're gonna now magically be able and willing to check the tax assessibility (knowing perfectly all tax exemptions/DTAs) of all foreign remittances of their (millions of) tax residents.

They never laid down any rules to make you declare your tax situation like they have done now

[Yumthai]

3 minutes ago, offset said:

They never laid down any rules to make you declare your tax situation like they have done now

Writing rules and speaking out loud is easy.

[parallelman]

I don't know if this is important or not but when I mentioned the DTA to the official he also wanted to know how much tax I had already paid on pension income.  I showed the tax statement and he coverted that to ฿. Now whether he was just curious or not I don't know but I did not pay any tax (Thai)

[Unamerican]

3 hours ago, Sophon said:

Two weeks ago I went to the local Revenue Department office here in Lamphun where I live. I showed the clerk/officer the document from the Revenue Department head office (pasted above in motdaeng's post), and explained to her that I wanted to file a tax return including my foreign pension. Unsurprisingly she had no idea how to do that, as they had received no guidance from Bangkok on the matter. Consequently, I was handed off to her boss who also knew nothing about this, but could see from the official document that I was in fact expected to file a tax return for my foreign pension.

 

Over the next hour or so, I explained my circumstances (through translation by my wife) to the boss-lady, we looked at all my documentation and together managed to file my tax return electronically.  Everything was conducted in a very cordial and service minded fashion. I have just checked my tax return online, and it has been accepted and finalized by whoever does the post-file processing.

 

The problem people have had when trying to file their tax return, is that the provincial offices have received no guidance from Bangkok, and culturally when Thai people don't know how to handle a situation, they often revert to the "no need" response, even when that is not true.

 

Some people here ask, why on earth anyone would voluntarily go to the Revenue Department and file a tax return. Everyone's situation is different, but personally I have several reasons for filing:

 

Firstly, living in a foreign country where I have no absolute right to live, I try to do things by the book, which includes filing a tax return when i am obligated to do so. I don't want any risk of being accused of tax evasion (however small that risk might be) and jeopardize my future here. Especially since I don't actually have to pay any tax on my pension. The tax I pay at source is far more than any tax Thailand would potentially be entitled to, and I would get a credit for the tax paid at source.

 

Secondly, I am entitled to claim back the 15% withholding tax on my bank interest. It is not a fortune, but I still want it back. It's a nice little bonus to get the annual check from the Revenue Department.

 

Thirdly, avoiding having to file a tax return in Thailand by not transferring your foreign income, or simply ignoring the obligation to file for income you have transferred, could be counterproductive. The new tax rules say that any assessable foreign income earned in 2024 and later, becomes taxable in Thailand in the tax year you transfer the money to Thailand. So you have a potential future tax burden hanging over you by not transferring the income. By filing a tax return for that income, you clear that potential future tax burden. And because of the progressive nature of the Thai tax system, and the quite generous annual deductions, it's generally better to get the taxes out of the way annually, than to wait and combine income from several years into the same transfer.
Example:
A fictional foreigner (65 years old) living in Thailand, has an annual foreign pension of THB 1 million and pays tax in his home country to the tune of THB 100k. The double taxation agreement between his home country and Thailand allows both countries to tax that pension.

 

In scenario one, this fictional foreigner transferred the full amount of the pension to Thailand in 2024, and will do the same in the future.

Tax in Thailand on a pension of THB 1 million is THB 50k, but because he will receive credit for the tax paid in his home country, he doesn't actually have to pay any tax in Thailand.

 

In scenario 2, the same person decided not to transfer any money to Thailand in 2024, because he first wanted to see how things developed. However, in 2025 he for whatever reason wants/needs to transfer his pension from both 2024 and 2025 to Thailand. Because he transfers the money in 2025, the income becomes taxable in Thailand in 2025. 

Tax in Thailand on THB 2 million is THB 277,500, from which he can deduct the tax he paid in his home country in 2024 and 2025. That still leaves him having to pay THB 77,500 in Thailand.

 

But as i said, everyone's circumstances and reasoning is different, these are just the reasons why I have decided to file. You do you, and I will do me. 

 

 

 

@Sophon has made here one of very few useful, complete and relevant contributions to this discussion.

 

So please read him  very carefully before deciding what to do. 

[Unamerican]

58 minutes ago, offset said:

If he came from the UK his pensions should have been taxed so he do not need to pay tax on them in Thailand 

No, it is not as simple as that: it depends also on your total UK income and taxes paid, with the exact details of the necessary calculation being somewhat complex. 

[Andycoops]

1 hour ago, jesimps said:

I see lots of posts saying that it's our responsibility, but no suggestions of how to obtain a TIN if we're refused one. It's not as though we're begging to be taxed here.

It was easy to obtain my TIN at the local TRD office I just showed my pink ID card, yellow book and passport. Took about 30 minutes.

[anrcaccount]

4 hours ago, Sophon said:

Two weeks ago I went to the local Revenue Department office here in Lamphun where I live. I showed the clerk/officer the document from the Revenue Department head office (pasted above in motdaeng's post), and explained to her that I wanted to file a tax return including my foreign pension. Unsurprisingly she had no idea how to do that, as they had received no guidance from Bangkok on the matter. Consequently, I was handed off to her boss who also knew nothing about this, but could see from the official document that I was in fact expected to file a tax return for my foreign pension.

 

Over the next hour or so, I explained my circumstances (through translation by my wife) to the boss-lady, we looked at all my documentation and together managed to file my tax return electronically.  Everything was conducted in a very cordial and service minded fashion. I have just checked my tax return online, and it has been accepted and finalized by whoever does the post-file processing.

 

The problem people have had when trying to file their tax return, is that the provincial offices have received no guidance from Bangkok, and culturally when Thai people don't know how to handle a situation, they often revert to the "no need" response, even when that is not true.

 

Some people here ask, why on earth anyone would voluntarily go to the Revenue Department and file a tax return. Everyone's situation is different, but personally I have several reasons for filing:

 

Firstly, living in a foreign country where I have no absolute right to live, I try to do things by the book, which includes filing a tax return when i am obligated to do so. I don't want any risk of being accused of tax evasion (however small that risk might be) and jeopardize my future here. Especially since I don't actually have to pay any tax on my pension. The tax I pay at source is far more than any tax Thailand would potentially be entitled to, and I would get a credit for the tax paid at source.

 

Secondly, I am entitled to claim back the 15% withholding tax on my bank interest. It is not a fortune, but I still want it back. It's a nice little bonus to get the annual check from the Revenue Department.

 

Thirdly, avoiding having to file a tax return in Thailand by not transferring your foreign income, or simply ignoring the obligation to file for income you have transferred, could be counterproductive. The new tax rules say that any assessable foreign income earned in 2024 and later, becomes taxable in Thailand in the tax year you transfer the money to Thailand. So you have a potential future tax burden hanging over you by not transferring the income. By filing a tax return for that income, you clear that potential future tax burden. And because of the progressive nature of the Thai tax system, and the quite generous annual deductions, it's generally better to get the taxes out of the way annually, than to wait and combine income from several years into the same transfer.
Example:
A fictional foreigner (65 years old) living in Thailand, has an annual foreign pension of THB 1 million and pays tax in his home country to the tune of THB 100k. The double taxation agreement between his home country and Thailand allows both countries to tax that pension.

 

In scenario one, this fictional foreigner transferred the full amount of the pension to Thailand in 2024, and will do the same in the future.

Tax in Thailand on a pension of THB 1 million is THB 50k, but because he will receive credit for the tax paid in his home country, he doesn't actually have to pay any tax in Thailand.

 

In scenario 2, the same person decided not to transfer any money to Thailand in 2024, because he first wanted to see how things developed. However, in 2025 he for whatever reason wants/needs to transfer his pension from both 2024 and 2025 to Thailand. Because he transfers the money in 2025, the income becomes taxable in Thailand in 2025. 

Tax in Thailand on THB 2 million is THB 277,500, from which he can deduct the tax he paid in his home country in 2024 and 2025. That still leaves him having to pay THB 77,500 in Thailand.

 

But as i said, everyone's circumstances and reasoning is different, these are just the reasons why I have decided to file. You do you, and I will do me. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the report, I can follow your reasoning, and good example provided of regular transfer of income, yet remain no tax payable. You could also use other planning strategies such s gifts or remittance of original capital to achieve the same or arguably more optimal result.

 

Anyway, thanks again for providing your logic, although I don't share your perspective. I cannot agree with you having to inform/educate a Thai official of the 'rules' in order to proactively file. 

 

Additionally as another comment states, Thailand doesn't reward proactive compliance/doing things 'by the book', as you know the reality is often very different to the theory.

 

I'm interested, did you file previous years ( if you remitted your pension directly it was also technically assessable then) ?

 

If not, why this year?

[Andycoops]

1 hour ago, offset said:

If he came from the UK his pensions should have been taxed so he do not need to pay tax on them in Thailand 

Not as I understand it because the UK Thai DTA only includes civil service pensions and not the ordinary citizens getting company and state pensions.

 

I'll stand corrected, if course if someone can show me where in that DTA it says differently.

[offset]

1 minute ago, Andycoops said:

Not as I understand it because the UK Thai DTA only includes civil service pensions and not the ordinary citizens getting company and state pensions.

 

I'll stand corrected, if course if someone can show me where in that DTA it says differently.

I think you will find that Thailand as agreed to not double tax pensions

[Andycoops]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

How much did he transfer?

Is his pension assessable/taxable?

What was his individual TEDA?

 

From tax tables, looks like he brought in around a million baht.

If Thailand has taxation rights, he owes tax.

 

I understand he declared about 1.1M baht of transfers. He pays UK income because of his company pension and showed this to the TRD official, who of course hadn't a clue what they were looking at.

[Andycoops]

Just now, offset said:

I think you will find that Thailand as agreed to not double tax pensions

Please provide the necessary proof as in the law passed through the Royal Gazette that states this is the case.

 

As I understand it, it's only been a suggestion that this will be the case.

[jwest10]

58 minutes ago, Sophon said:

 

Yes, I had assessable income in 2024 and included it on my PND90 filing.

No, I didn't end up paying any tax, as my income is under the sum of deductions and exempt income that I am entitled to:
THB 100,000 expenses deduction

THB 60,000 personal allowance
THB 60,000 spouse allowance
First THB 150,000 of net taxable income is taxed at zero %.
So a total of THB 370,000 that is not taxed.

 

When I turn 65, which is when my main pensions start to pay out, I get an additional THB 190,000 deduction, but I am not quite there yet.

Told many times by my local Revenue Office that my personal allwances are higher than my income and in any case asked "Have you employment here"
No need to file

[khunPer]

17 hours ago, patrickl said:

I am helping someone file taxes for their Swiss pension. Most of the funds (90-95%) are transferred every month from Switzerland to Thailand via wire transfer. It doesn't come from savings but straight from the pension (pension -> bank account in Switzerland -> bank account in Thailand). We went to the tax office in one of the major cities today and the officer said there's no need to file for taxes as pensions from outside of Thailand, only if there is income from a job or earnings from rentals, etc. and that pensions are not taxed plus there is a double tax agreement with Thailand and Switzerland. We informed them that no taxes are paid in Switzerland because the person lives here all year and the officer said still there's no need to pay taxes, as the amount of tax would be in her own words "very small" (around 30,000 Baht, after deduction of allowances) and the medical bills and other things that could be deducted are likely higher (the officer didn't even want to see those and we didn't mention any or bring any). I hope they will not come knocking at the door one day but they basically refused to even allow filing taxes or get a tax number.

Interesting. I had a meeting with the local Revenue Office's director, and he stated that all tax-resident foreigners need to file a tax return form, even when retirement pensions are taxed abroad ans there is a DTA...

[leonard beaven]

I am a brit on UK state pension.

Desided to play safe and set out on the journey to find my local or provincial tax office.

Eventually arrived at Wang Chao Amour office after dragging around Tak.

From here everything is just easy peasy.I don't understand all the fuss.Upon leaving Tak I firstly obtain a bank statement.

       They had the nerve to charge me 200baht.Took that passport Id yellow book all usual s,,t with me to tax clerk..(very pretty,) she opened an account for me input all my info,and about an hour later and some translating sodding about,gave me the good news ,that after allowances I had no Tax to pay.

I even went behind the desk at one point to assist with a little translation.Seems UK was not reckonise on her computor,some silly bugger had loaded her op.system with useless USA English.

The only disappointment was I didn't get to claim expences for cost of bank statement and fuel for the chasing around.

Got to add couple new phone numbers to my sweeties list.

Hope this helps some of you guys. Whole trip a good laugh and successful ending.Good Luck

[leonard beaven]

Sorry about any typos.

[BusyB]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

I haven't been back since and don't have a tax number. I am under the impression that the TRD's new interpretation of the tax laws concerning expats doesn't require a change of law and that we are tax liable. My pension comes from Germany, it isn't taxed there as they assume I am taxed in Thailand, as far as I can make out German pensions aren't covered under the DTA. I have worked out that I would be liable to pay 28 - 30 k in tax.

 

Try another look at the Thai-German DTA.

 

https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardartikel/Themen/Steuern/Internationales_Steuerrecht/Staatenbezogene_Informationen/Laender_A_Z/Thailand/1968-07-26-Thailand-Abkommen-DBA-Gesetz.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1

 

You'll have to copy paste the link. Scroll down to Article 18 §2. (§1 is irrelevant for common or garden non-working pensioners like me at any rate.)

 

My take says Deutsche RentenVersicherung (state paid, national contributory from lifetime earnings, old age) pensions are only taxable in Germany and non-taxable in Thailand. The same applies to corresponding Thai pensions which cannot be taxed in Germany.

 

I can confirm that my DRV pension is taxed in Germany (as is my NI pension - being part of my total income there.) But that's because I haven't officially given up my tax residence there. The German tax threshold for pensions is about €1369/month gross - but pensioners still have to file a return even if they're not liable.

 

If I gave up my German residence for tax purposes my pension wouldn't be taxed in Germany but I suspect might then become liable in Thailand. Or perhaps not - it is after all up to the Germans whether or not they tax a pension. Not taxing a pension does not in my mind automatically give the other contracting state - Thailand here - the right to levy a tax according to the Art.18, $2, DTA.

 

It is also worth noting that if you do officially give up German residence for tax purposes they have the right, and actually warn you, that they may reduce the amount paid out to you based on where your residence is. Which is effectively a form of tax but doesn't count as such: officially it's just a reduced entitlement.

 

But those last two paragraphs are something for the legal department to chew on.

 

[offset]

21 minutes ago, leonard beaven said:

I am a brit on UK state pension.

Desided to play safe and set out on the journey to find my local or provincial tax office.

Eventually arrived at Wang Chao Amour office after dragging around Tak.

From here everything is just easy peasy.I don't understand all the fuss.Upon leaving Tak I firstly obtain a bank statement.

       They had the nerve to charge me 200baht.Took that passport Id yellow book all usual s,,t with me to tax clerk..(very pretty,) she opened an account for me input all my info,and about an hour later and some translating sodding about,gave me the good news ,that after allowances I had no Tax to pay.

I even went behind the desk at one point to assist with a little translation.Seems UK was not reckonise on her computor,some silly bugger had loaded her op.system with useless USA English.

The only disappointment was I didn't get to claim expences for cost of bank statement and fuel for the chasing around.

Got to add couple new phone numbers to my sweeties list.

Hope this helps some of you guys. Whole trip a good laugh and successful ending.Good Luck

Can I ask do you pay any tax to the UK

[jwest10]

23 minutes ago, leonard beaven said:

I am a brit on UK state pension.

Desided to play safe and set out on the journey to find my local or provincial tax office.

Eventually arrived at Wang Chao Amour office after dragging around Tak.

From here everything is just easy peasy.I don't understand all the fuss.Upon leaving Tak I firstly obtain a bank statement.

       They had the nerve to charge me 200baht.Took that passport Id yellow book all usual s,,t with me to tax clerk..(very pretty,) she opened an account for me input all my info,and about an hour later and some translating sodding about,gave me the good news ,that after allowances I had no Tax to pay.

I even went behind the desk at one point to assist with a little translation.Seems UK was not reckonise on her computor,some silly bugger had loaded her op.system with useless USA English.

The only disappointment was I didn't get to claim expences for cost of bank statement and fuel for the chasing around.

Got to add couple new phone numbers to my sweeties list.

Hope this helps some of you guys. Whole trip a good laugh and successful ending.Good Luck

No form just  asking and so many stating not and precisely  and my local office and several times no tax and no form
Offset Just seen your post and yes I pay tax in the UK and got the P60s but no one wanted to see my paper work at all/

[ukrules]

6 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Hey, you do you. Time after time expats are being told not to file. Comparing taxes to immigration requirements is not same same.

 

Yes it is, and sure I will do me which is why I now spend half a year in Cambodia and don't pay a single Baht no matter how much I remit.

 

 

[jwest10]

58 minutes ago, Andycoops said:

It was easy to obtain my TIN at the local TRD office I just showed my pink ID card, yellow book and passport. Took about 30 minutes.

I stated I had a pink card and it made no difference and no file or tax to pay on several times,!!!

 

[connda]

18 hours ago, patrickl said:

I am helping someone file taxes for their Swiss pension. Most of the funds (90-95%) are transferred every month from Switzerland to Thailand via wire transfer. It doesn't come from savings but straight from the pension (pension -> bank account in Switzerland -> bank account in Thailand). We went to the tax office in one of the major cities today and the officer said there's no need to file for taxes as pensions from outside of Thailand, only if there is income from a job or earnings from rentals, etc. and that pensions are not taxed plus there is a double tax agreement with Thailand and Switzerland. We informed them that no taxes are paid in Switzerland because the person lives here all year and the officer said still there's no need to pay taxes, as the amount of tax would be in her own words "very small" (around 30,000 Baht, after deduction of allowances) and the medical bills and other things that could be deducted are likely higher (the officer didn't even want to see those and we didn't mention any or bring any). I hope they will not come knocking at the door one day but they basically refused to even allow filing taxes or get a tax number.

Some of you are just gluttons for punishment.
"I must file!!!"
You no need file.
"I insist. I must be allowed to file."
Ok, we let you file.  You own 50,000 THB.
But there is a Dual Tax Treaty.
No understand tax treaty.  You own 50,000 THB.  Pay up!  Rao rao.

[msbkk]

7 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Ah, the single infographic TRD released more than a year ago, OK, sure, an official source, I cannot argue with that.

 

But I am talking about the real world.  

 

What I can say, is that we must have had 20+ reports on this forum all showing the TRD isn't interested in dealing with foreigners proactively trying to comply with their interpretation of the "facts / rules " by voluntarily trying to pay tax on their remittances. 

What I have not seen, is a SINGLE report of anyone actually *successfully* paying any significant amount of tax on a foreign remittance. The first case that's published of anyone paying tax on their funds transferred to buy a house or condo, will be very newsworthy.

 

There must have been thousands of foreigners who did exactly this, using 'technically assessable' income, sometime in 2024. 

Yet, we haven't heard of a single case on here. Ask yourself, why not? No way all those funds transferred in were non-assessable, absolutely there will be big amounts that are  will be technically assessable. Did no one buy a home / condo / even a car last year? Where's the reports of someone trying to declare the gain on the sale of property ( or other investments)  sold overseas, remitted to buy property in Thailand? 

 

Tax filing season is almost finished, and guess what, I bet 95%+ of foreigners not working in Thailand won't file a return, just like last year, and the 10 years before that.  

A good friend has filed in Pattaya and paid around 30,000 Baht in taxes last week.

[jensmann]

7 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Ah, the single infographic TRD released more than a year ago, OK, sure, an official source, I cannot argue with that.

 

But I am talking about the real world.  

 

What I can say, is that we must have had 20+ reports on this forum all showing the TRD isn't interested in dealing with foreigners proactively trying to comply with their interpretation of the "facts / rules " by voluntarily trying to pay tax on their remittances. 

What I have not seen, is a SINGLE report of anyone actually *successfully* paying any significant amount of tax on a foreign remittance. The first case that's published of anyone paying tax on their funds transferred to buy a house or condo, will be very newsworthy.

 

There must have been thousands of foreigners who did exactly this, using 'technically assessable' income, sometime in 2024. 

Yet, we haven't heard of a single case on here. Ask yourself, why not? No way all those funds transferred in were non-assessable, absolutely there will be big amounts that are  will be technically assessable. Did no one buy a home / condo / even a car last year? Where's the reports of someone trying to declare the gain on the sale of property ( or other investments)  sold overseas, remitted to buy property in Thailand? 

 

Tax filing season is almost finished, and guess what, I bet 95%+ of foreigners not working in Thailand won't file a return, just like last year, and the 10 years before that.  

very simple: those who comply with the law are not interested in participating in any misleading Smalltalk and those are quite a lot. that's why you don't here from them. They do their job and give you the freedom to do, what you think is right... who laughs last?