Why Zelensky Won’t Bargain Away Crimea — No Matter the Pressure

[frank83628]

13 minutes ago, Tug said:

Ok frank when have I called my country’s patriots fascist?if they are that they aren’t patriots because they would be betraying every thing the states stands for ergo they aren’t patriots hope that helps.

Trump supporters are America first patriots,  you call them fascists

[NativeBob]

every day of "military actions" at UA bring not only corpses but hefty rewards to those who vouch against peace talks. 

[beautifulthailand99]

St Javelin used to boast about the Crimea Beach Party - join us !

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

The status of Crimea has changed several times over the past few centuries. Here's a brief overview:

Timeline of Russian Control over Crimea:

1. 1783–1954:
   Crimea was annexed by the Russian Empire in 1783 under Catherine the Great and remained part of Russia until 1954.
   ➤ Total: 171 years

2. 1954–1991:
   Crimea was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (a part of the USSR) by Nikita Khrushchev. Although still under Soviet control, it was administratively part of Ukraine.

3. 1991–2014:
   After the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, Crimea became part of independent Ukraine.

4. Since 2014:
   Russia annexed Crimea in March 2014, a move not recognized by Ukraine or most of the international community. However, Russia considers it part of its territory.
   ➤ As of 2025, that's 11 years

---

Total Time Under Russian Control:

• 1783–1954: 171 years (Imperial Russia + USSR)

• 2014–2025: 11 years (Modern Russia)

Grand Total: 182 years, if you count both periods together under Russian control.

Would you like a visual timeline of Crimea’s history?

[connda]

4 hours ago, CRUNCHER said:

Both Russia and US signed the 1994 Budapest agreement guaranteeing Ukraine's  boarders as the existed at that time.  This included Crimea. History before that is irrelevant.

That Putin fails to honour his international obligations is not surprising; he is pure evil.

One would have hoped that the US had more integrity, but Trump is dragging US down into the gutter along with Putin. 

All Americans should hang their heads in shame at what their country is becoming. US's word now means nothing.

Blah blah blah.  Any treaty the US signs isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  "That Putin fails to honour his international obligations is not surprising; he is pure evil."  Yada yada yada...

There's the pot calling the kettle "black."  

Personally I don't care.  Let the West go to war with all those whom they now refer to as "aggressors" and "enemies," and the overused "Axis of Evil!"  I've got a pretty good idea how it all ends.  I seriously doubt I'll survive to the end of the next World War.  So what.  I'll leave the hating and fighting for the rest of you who all seem to have a dog in the fight.  Go for it! 

[Will B Good]

11 hours ago, dinsdale said:

Crimea was handed to the Russians under Obama. Now Zelensky wants it back.

Was Crimea “Handed Over”?

No. It wasn’t handed over — it was taken by Russia. Obama didn’t approve, consent, or negotiate the transfer.

[NativeBob]

30 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Would you like a visual timeline of Crimea’s history?

please, in color and black/white - some are color blind )

 

10 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

No. It wasn’t handed over — it was taken by Russia.

Yep. Reuters had life feed from Crimea. non-stop from the Day 1 until referendum. "Polite Green Men".  Zero resistance. #ROFL

[Cryingdick]

14 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

It is an internationally accepted concept since World War II that any land amassed over the course of a war does not legally belong to the victor. The only true exception of this might be Israel which illegally seized a significant amount of land.

 

. 

Tell that to China if/when they invade Taiwan. It is an internationally accepted concept for western nations the rest of the world not so much.

[dinsdale]

1 hour ago, Will B Good said:

Was Crimea “Handed Over”?

No. It wasn’t handed over — it was taken by Russia. Obama didn’t approve, consent, or negotiate the transfer.

Figuratively speaking (handed over). There was no military resistance to this annexation. It was total capitulation. 

[beautifulthailand99]

16 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

Tell that to China if/when they invade Taiwan. It is an internationally accepted concept for western nations the rest of the world not so much.

They will just be taking back sovereign territory - stay in your lanes superpowers. US gets Canada and Greenland , Russia - Ukraine , China- Taiwan them's the new rules for the newish century. Sorry for any misunderstandings.

 

[beautifulthailand99]

 

[Rob Browder]

14 hours ago, Social Media said:

The suggestion that the U.S. might legitimize Russia’s landgrab is more than just an affront to Ukrainian sovereignty; it’s a direct challenge to the very idea of international law.

That went out the window when NATO broke up / disregarded the "sovereign borders" of Yugoslavia.  And never mind the CIA-backed Coup which started this civil-war  in 2014.  Nuland admitted they spent Billions on this "project" - supporting the Banderista faction. 

 

15 hours ago, Social Media said:

For Zelensky, who has repeatedly vowed to uphold the law of his nation, relinquishing Crimea would not only be unconstitutional — it would be unthinkable.

 

LOL!!!  After Ukraine killed political opponents, and bragged about it?  As they round-up people in the streets, to throw into certain-death, in an unwinnable war, which only happened because Ukraine REFUSED every off-ramp, including Minsk? 

 

To his credit, Zelensky did make a half-hearted effort with Minsk at first, but the Banderistas basically told him to stick it (on video), and refused to stop shelling civilians in Donbass. The death toll from this was over 14K, by the time Russia got involved.

 

The co-signatories did not demand Ukraine follow the treaty they had signed (also passed by the National Security Counsel), and the USA continued supplying "aid," to spite Ukraine ignoring the treaty (both Obama and Trump).

 

As to Trump's angle - in his 1st Term, he escalated that ONGOING war - taking it even further than Obama - supplying lethal-aid, and trashing long-standing arms-control agreements with Russia, which made Ukraine even more of a threat to Russian national-security.  So, pretending Russia entering the conflict, as a major Ukraine offensive was beginning, was "only because of Biden," is silly. 

[Will B Good]

6 minutes ago, Rob Browder said:

That went out the window when NATO broke up / disregarded the "sovereign borders" of Yugoslavia.  And never mind the CIA-backed Coup which started this civil-war  in 2014.  Nuland admitted they spent Billions on this "project" - supporting the Banderista faction. 

 

 

LOL!!!  After Ukraine killed political opponents, and bragged about it?  As they round-up people in the streets, to throw into certain-death, in an unwinnable war, which only happened because Ukraine REFUSED every off-ramp, including Minsk? 

 

To his credit, Zelensky did make a half-hearted effort with Minsk at first, but the Banderistas basically told him to stick it (on video), and refused to stop shelling civilians in Donbass. The death toll from this was over 14K, by the time Russia got involved.

 

The co-signatories did not demand Ukraine follow the treaty they had signed (also passed by the National Security Counsel), and the USA continued supplying "aid," to spite Ukraine ignoring the treaty (both Obama and Trump).

 

As to Trump's angle - in his 1st Term, he escalated that ONGOING war - taking it even further than Obama - supplying lethal-aid, and trashing long-standing arms-control agreements with Russia, which made Ukraine even more of a threat to Russian national-security.  So, pretending Russia entering the conflict, as a major Ukraine offensive was beginning, was "only because of Biden," is silly. 

 

 

What Did Nuland Actually Say?

 

In 2013, Victoria Nuland gave a talk at the National Press Club in Washington where she mentioned:

 

“Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals.”

[Rob Browder]

15 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

It is an internationally accepted concept since World War II that any land amassed over the course of a war does not legally belong to the victor. The only true exception of this might be Israel which illegally seized a significant amount of land.

See Yugoslavia - broken-up by NATO.  Also all the CIA and MI6 Coups, which take an entire country. 

 

Israel didn't ONLY take land - still expanding now - but also ethnically-cleanses the land, and puts the former-occupants of stolen-land in concentration-camp zones - then allows their "settlers" to brutalize and murder in those areas - stealing more land - backed by their army.  The "West" supports this; the hypocrisy is staggering.

 

By contrast, Russia does not practice ethnic-discrimination, and are actively fighting a "Banderista" regime which is founded on ethnic-discrimination.  See Zelensky's comments recently about "hating all Russians" - and that most certainly includes the large % of the Ukrainian population who are ethnically-Russian.

[Rob Browder]

5 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

 

What Did Nuland Actually Say?

 

In 2013, Victoria Nuland gave a talk at the National Press Club in Washington where she mentioned:

 

“Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals.”

Yes - and if you think "build democratic skills" somehow matches-up with backing a race-based, ethnic-Russian hating Banderista regime, I've got a bridge to sell you.  

 

They literally destroyed a democracy with a coup.  She was caught on audio-intercept discussing who the USA was going to INSTALL in the "new govt" - and then REJECTED the early-election option, post-coup. 

 

This is hardly the first case of the US State Dept using Orwellian Doublespeak.  See the "Freedom Fighter" right-wing death squads in Central and South America. 

[Magictoad]

15 hours ago, Tug said:

Its also a large body of water the killers have to cross before they can murder Ukrainian patriots trying to defend their nation.its also a way to throttle Russia trying to get their goods to market.Its also a roadblock to trump’s betrayal of Ukraine and our European brothers and sisters.

Thank you for stating the obvious. Don't  Americans understand how vulnerable mainland Europe is?

[Harrisfan]

10 hours ago, Hamus Yaigh said:

It was not a neutral comment as it ignores an injustice by an aggressor? It was also not targeted at you specifically but "some people" as I said, and there are a lot of "them" on this forum for some reason.

Give USA back to the Indians then

[Magictoad]

2 hours ago, connda said:

Blah blah blah.  Any treaty the US signs isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  "That Putin fails to honour his international obligations is not surprising; he is pure evil."  Yada yada yada...

There's the pot calling the kettle "black."  

Personally I don't care.  Let the West go to war with all those whom they now refer to as "aggressors" and "enemies," and the overused "Axis of Evil!"  I've got a pretty good idea how it all ends.  I seriously doubt I'll survive to the end of the next World War.  So what.  I'll leave the hating and fighting for the rest of you who all seem to have a dog in the fight.  Go for it! 

What about we who have children in Europe? We don't want Russian invaders coming to London or Paris or Lisbon or anywhere near thank you very much.

[NoDisplayName]

9 minutes ago, Magictoad said:

Thank you for stating the obvious. Don't  Americans understand how vulnerable mainland Europe is?

 

We understand.

That's why we blowed up Nordstream.

[Hellfire]

14 hours ago, dinsdale said:

Crimea was handed to the Russians under Obama. Now Zelensky wants it back.

Handed? By who?

[Hellfire]

5 hours ago, frank83628 said:

Trump supporters are America first patriots,  you call them fascists

Fascists are always patriots. 

[Magictoad]

9 hours ago, connda said:

The exact Neo-libs who insist that places like California need to have translation services available for all non-English speakers and DMV tests written in Spanish, Armenian, Chinese, Hindi, Punjabi, Vietnamese, Korean, Tagalog, Arabic, Russian, Japanese, Farsi, Khmer, Thai, Hmong, Lao, Portuguese, French, German, Italian, Amharic, Bengali, Burmese, Gujarati, Ilocano, Indonesian, Malay, Samoan, Somali, Tamil, Tongan - and Thai¹ - also have no problem with the Ukraine government outlawing the Russian language, Russian culture, Russian History, and the Eastern Orthodox Religion in Ukraine.

Diversity for we, but not for thee.

The Blue State liberals and Democrats, and now the new class of rainbow-colored-flag waving War-Hawks (historically anti-war but not anymore), insist we celebrate "diversity" in the United States (like 32 different DMV test languages) and support "hate-crime laws" (say anything about a minority and go to jail), and yet are the exact people who are rallying behind the Ukrainian government's Anti-Everything-Russian laws that outlaws, well, everything Russian in Ukraine.  Outlaw all things Russian and hate the Russian minority all you want - and it's s'all good man! 

The hypocrisy is over-the-top.

1. Caveat - Since 2021 CA have pared the DMV test languages down from 32 languages to 7 after the Dymally-Alatorre Bilingual Services Act of 1973 was reinterpreted, perhaps due to CA over-blown budget and state debt.   But the Dymally-Alatorre Bilingual Services Act of 1973 does seek to protect the most represented of the 5% of the CA population - unlike Ukraine which is just the opposite and have laws making just about everything Russian (language, culture, religion) illegal.  At the same time as they are outlawing Russian speaking, on June 4, 2024, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukraine’s parliament) adopted the law making English an "official" language in Ukraine.  Ukraine does hate their ethnic Russian population.

Sound a tad hysterical to me. Are you not sure your problem is not with California? This is a Thai forum with a sub section about Eastern Europe. Not 

California.

[Harrisfan]

2 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

Fascists are always patriots. 

So Thais are fascists then

[Magictoad]

10 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

We understand.

That's why we blowed up Nordstream.

blew up

[dinsdale]

1 minute ago, Hellfire said:

Fascists are always patriots. 

Azov Brigade. Good Ukrainian patriots.

[Hellfire]

1 hour ago, dinsdale said:

Figuratively speaking (handed over). There was no military resistance to this annexation. It was total capitulation. 

 Ukraine simply wasn't prepared for such a blatant violation of international law. The country genuinely believed that the Budapest Memorandum was more than just a piece of paper to the US and Europe. Unfortunately, it turned out to be exactly that — just a piece of paper, one that Putin wiped his KGB ass with. Now, it seems Trump intends to do the same with all international law.

[Will B Good]

35 minutes ago, Rob Browder said:

Yes - and if you think "build democratic skills" somehow matches-up with backing a race-based, ethnic-Russian hating Banderista regime, I've got a bridge to sell you.  

 

They literally destroyed a democracy with a coup.  She was caught on audio-intercept discussing who the USA was going to INSTALL in the "new govt" - and then REJECTED the early-election option, post-coup. 

 

This is hardly the first case of the US State Dept using Orwellian Doublespeak.  See the "Freedom Fighter" right-wing death squads in Central and South America. 

 

You're right....they should have gone in with tanks, missiles, drones and foreign soldiers.......no messing about.

[Hellfire]

4 minutes ago, Harrisfan said:

So Thais are fascists then

A simple lesson in logic for you:

 

All fascists are patriots

Not all patriots are fascists

[Harrisfan]

Just now, Hellfire said:

A simple lesson in logic for you:

 

All fascist are patriots

Not all patriots are fascists

Thais are more patriotic though so your post is flawed crap

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, Magictoad said:

blew up