Report Abandoned Abroad: British Pensioner in Thailand Slams 'Immoral' Frozen Pensions Policy

[sandyf]

42 minutes ago, Trip Hop said:

 

Get over it!

I am too old to be getting over anything.

Your response only highlights the "I am all right Jack" attitude to injustice.

[norsurin]

Better he sell his goldchain before he said he almost starving.It seems on the picture that he have a nice place where he stay.

[Tiger1980]

3 hours ago, Will B Good said:

Anyone know?.....Thai wife 12 years NI paid, but never lived in the UK......will she still be entitled to a state pension when she hits retirement age?

Yes, she is entitled to 1/3 rd state pension. The minimum requirement is 10 yrs.

[bobnuts]

So much on this, and understanably so. I myself am likely to come into the situation of a frozen state pension in a couple of years though I do have a workplace final salary pension as well so the basic state pension is an "add on". 

 

Like many I have wondered how the Philippines qualifies for increases but not Thailand. This is due to the bilateral agreement entered into between the two countries. This was signed in 1985 and came into force in 1989.

 

I also wondered why Thaialand has not been approached to do the same and like some presumed this was likely because Thaialand did not or would not agree but after a little searching I came to unedsrand that the Thatcher government, elected in 1979 announced in 1981, as a part of policy focused on reducing public spending and tightening government commitments, especially regarding overseas obligations like automatic pension increases for expatriates stopped considering or pursuing any further agreements.

 

The Philippines SSA was already in discussion and was allowed to continue to signature and passage into effect but no new agreements were considered.

 

So it seem as if this is another Thatcher, or more specifically Geoffrey Howe's doing.

 

I think it is an important part of retirement planning to understand what the implications of retiring in another country are, and to research all financial aspects especially. Anything less is like expecting your host country to honour your UK library card or take payments in pound notes.

 

So far as paying tax on pension payments is concerned, if the money was earned (arising) in UK and you were in PAYE then I think your National Insurance payments were free of tax, this part of your income was not taxed at the time you paid into the scheme. Clearly as income invested for later payment (pension) it will be taxed somewhere. The alternative would have been a higher tax bill whilst in work. I'm not 100% on this bit but is how it was explained to me.

 

Bob

[sambum]

One thing that annoys me about this subject is that the Government can freeze pensions in certain countries because they do not have a "reciprocal" agreement with the UK, although I have paid contributions all my working life, and I get a small pension from my previous employer that is increased every year with no questions asked as to where I am living.

This subject has been covered in depth many times, and I remember prior to the last General Election, one of the Labour candidates promised that he/she would bring it up in the Commons as a "priority" Needless to say, once Labour got in, it was "swept under the carpet" AGAIN, along with other broken promises and turnarounds by Starmer & Co.

 

***STOP PRESS***

 Today's Government release re increase in pensions:-

 

"Minister for Pensions Torsten Bell said:

Raising the State Pension and rescuing the NHS – these are this government’s priorities to give all pensioners the dignity they deserve in their retirement. Those who have worked hard throughout their lives, paying into the system, are owed nothing less."

 

He means of course, all pensioners EXCEPT those that have their State Pensions frozen, but it sounds and looks better to say "ALL"!!!

[KannikaP]

54 minutes ago, Blueman1 said:

Well I For one Didn't KNOW,We were Never TOLD.....

It's called Due Dilligence. Check things out YOUSELF, not wait to be told years later.

[BritManToo]

12 minutes ago, Clydesdale said:

"For decades successive governments have blatently (sic) lied and misled the public over the state pension....

The UK state pension is probably the greatest unwritten financial scandal of the last century.": CORRECT.

 

UK state pensions may be good for another two/three years. Government already deep in debt and deficit spending still rising.  The money has to come from somewhere.

Saving money, in no particular order ........

 

They could stop giving foreign aid

They could stop giving billions to the Ukraine 

Disband the army, navy, air force

Cut free money for women

Not fund illegal immigrants

No private jets for elected officials and civil servants

Get rid of the royal family

Forget green energy and net zero

Stop funding the BBC

 

I could probably think of a lot more ways to save money than cutting back on the pensions of UK citizens.

 

[Chris Daley]

Stop stealing those Thai medical services Mr 70.  Back to England for you.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Will B Good said:

Anyone know?.....Thai wife 12 years NI paid, but never lived in the UK......will she still be entitled to a state pension when she hits retirement age?

AFAIK, and I did research it a few years ago, if your wife has never lived in the UK, has never paid national insurance contributions in her own name and has no no national insurance number, then she is not entitled to a UK state pension, and your state pension dies when you die.

 

It may have changed in the intervening years, but I don't think that it has.

 

There used to be a bereavement grant paid to all UK pensioners widows, but that was stopped, at least in Thailand, many years ago.

[GanDoonToonPet]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

I waited just 7 days.....

 

Me too, at the end of last year. That included registering with a new GP at the new medical centre just down the road from my parents' house.

 

I had to wait 2 months to get a (free) consultation with a surgeon though 😊

[simon43]

Just now, GanDoonToonPet said:

 

Me too, at the end of last year. That included registering with a new GP at the new medical centre just down the road from my parents' house.

 

I had to wait 2 months to get a (free) consultation with a surgeon though 😊

I was fast-tracked because of suspected cancer.  Happily, no cancer was found!

[BangkokReady]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

At 70, the former banker relies on a weekly £137 (6,150 baht) after a SERPS top-up, opposed to the current UK basic pension of £176.45 (7,880 baht).

 

I'm pretty sure a former banker isn't dependant on the state pension alone.

[GarryP]

18 minutes ago, bobnuts said:

So much on this, and understanably so. I myself am likely to come into the situation of a frozen state pension in a couple of years though I do have a workplace final salary pension as well so the basic state pension is an "add on". 

Bob

A workplace final salary pension sounds great. I would be laughing if I got that. Alas, my only pension until I hit 67 is my Thai Social Security pension of Baht 5,250/ month and my old git 600 Baht benefit. In other words, I am living off savings.   

[sandyf]

16 minutes ago, FRM-BKK said:

The U.K. Government was challenged in the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) in January 2009 by a group of of affected retirees.

The ECtHR’s verdict in March 2010 was that the UK Government had not violated article 14  of the EU Human Rights Act, when taken with article 1 of Protocol 1.

Meaning that the U.K. Government had a very strong mandate to maintain their position on frozen pensions.

I think that they are highly unlikely to change, despite this gross injustice !!

I think you are referring to the Carson case which actually started in 2002, with final judgement in 2010.

The item you mention, Article 14 was actually dismissed on the basis it had not been brought before a domestic court.

The main argument surrounded the right to an uprated pension and the court found that did not  constitute a "human right".

The government has claimed the frozen pension policy has been supported by the courts, but that is misleading. The court decision was against the claimants case, it did not mean the government was not guilty of discrimination under current equality legislation.

In the final summation one of the judges made the following statement which the government has quoted quite regularly.

"Unlike private pension schemes, National Insurance contributions had no exclusive link to retirement pensions."

That is a distorted statement as the "Retirement Pension" is what many will be entitled to under the National  Insurance Act of 1959/60.

How exclusive a link is required. If there were no exclusive link, then everyone would be paid the same and that is certainly not the case.

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

Picture of Christopher Lee courtesy of the iPaper

 

A British expat's sunny retirement in Thailand has turned stormy as his UK state pension remains frozen, leaving him counting every baht. Christopher Lee traded Wrexham for Thailand in 2010, drawn by the warm climate and relaxed lifestyle. But, his pension is stuck at its original rate, unlike UK counterparts who've seen increases of up to 80%.

 

At 70, the former banker relies on a weekly £137 (6,150 baht) after a SERPS top-up, opposed to the current UK basic pension of £176.45 (7,880 baht). In Thailand, one of many countries on the UK’s 'frozen pensions' list, Lee and others see their pensions diminish amidst rising costs.

 

Over 450,000 Brits in countries like Thailand, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand share Lee's plight, battling constant inflation. “The extra cash would be most useful,” Lee voiced, pressing for a policy reversal as financial strains increase. Adding to his woes is a modest private pension that fails to deliver the retirement he envisioned.

 

 

 

Groups of British pensioners in Thailand are pushing back, urging government reform as pensioners face poverty—a plight highlighted in The Thaiger's coverage of Brits struggling in Pattaya and Chiang Mai. The UK government, however, maintains that adjusting overseas pensions would cost nearly £1 billion annually.

 

The Department for Work and Pensions reported it would take an estimated £940 million to unfreeze pensions in 2024-25. While officials insist information is clear on retirement financial impacts, Lee and others find this unsatisfactory. "We've paid in, so we deserve annual increases," he argued.

 

For expats like Lee, the reality is stark—a life of rising prices and tightened budgets, far removed from the warm retirement once imagined under the Thai sun.

 

  Adapted by ASEAN Now from The Thaiger 2025-04-28

 

 

 

 

I don't understand - this pension thing has existed for decades - surely he would have had te gumption to find this out before moving?

 

The Second issue is that before  the EU were pressurising the UK to increase levels to EU standards - France for instance has effectively double the UK pension and Germany 3 times the UK pension.

 

If they hadn't voted leave all pensioners would be hugely better off. Iy's their own fault. UK has much lower benefits than most countries in EU - keeps the poor on their toes!

[CFCol]

7 hours ago, Bannoi said:

If they can take the winter fuel allowance away from UK pensioners then there is no way they are going to give an increase to a pensioner living in Thailand.

 

There is a way around it though move back to UK get the increase then move back to Thailand or if you move to Philippines you would get the increase every year.

 

I agree it's not fair but its not going to change, a pensioner living in Thailand is very low down on the list of priorities. (They don't vote}

Yes they do vote, for the first 15 years after moving out here.

[Tiger1980]

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You wouldn't get any housing and NHS medical treatment often takes years to receive 

NHS from day 1, although my son Thai born with British citizenship was required by a foreign born bureaucrat at the NHs hospital to prove his residency even after 4 yrs in the UK.

 Illegal Economic migrants can make use of the NHS on day 1.Same for dental treatment for which a British citizen may have to Waite weeks/ months and then be required to pay.

[Kinnock]

40 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

...by NOT requiring NHS treatment.......surely.

.... I meant the UK based pensioners who get the annual increases also cost the country money by receiving free NHS treatments.

 

Whereas many Thailand based pensioners pay for private health insurance and receive no UK benefits so we save the UK money and have a frozen pension.

 

And some also still have to pay UK tax if the supplement the tiny pension with UK based schemes.

 

We get shafted both ways.

[FRM-BKK]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I think you are referring to the Carson case which actually started in 2002, with final judgement in 2010.

The item you mention, Article 14 was actually dismissed on the basis it had not been brought before a domestic court.

The main argument surrounded the right to an uprated pension and the court found that did not  constitute a "human right".

The government has claimed the frozen pension policy has been supported by the courts, but that is misleading. The court decision was against the claimants case, it did not mean the government was not guilty of discrimination under current equality legislation.

In the final summation one of the judges made the following statement which the government has quoted quite regularly.

"Unlike private pension schemes, National Insurance contributions had no exclusive link to retirement pensions."

That is a distorted statement as the "Retirement Pension" is what many will be entitled to under the National  Insurance Act of 1959/60.

How exclusive a link is required. If there were no exclusive link, then everyone would be paid the same and that is certainly not the case.

You are quite right; it was the Anette Carson case and started in 2002.

After a number of (failed) appeals it was finally referred to the Grand Chamber of the ECtHR.
 

Their verdict has been interpreted in various ways, depending on which organisation’s interests they were representing. 
 

But thank you for your valuable insight and addition to the discussion. 

[sambum]

7 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Not the Christopher Lee ,I knew , We all would like more pension ,but the Government

won't give it ,they need the money for all the immigrants ,but Chris knew coming here

what the situation was , myself I get 90 quid a week ,because I retired early ,it is what

it is , no way is the Government going to help us ,it's like out of sight out of mind , 

 

regards Worgeordie

 

But -  but - but (Sir!) Keith Starmer said at the Summer Conference last year that "All pensioners - ALL pensioners will be better off under Labour". That of course was just before he scrapped TV licences for the over 75's (Wonder how much that saved?) and scrapped the Old Age Winter Fuel Allowance for most pensioners.

[impulse]

41 minutes ago, sambum said:

One thing that annoys me about this subject is that the Government can freeze pensions in certain countries because they do not have a "reciprocal" agreement with the UK, although I have paid contributions all my working life, and I get a small pension from my previous employer that is increased every year with no questions asked as to where I am living.

 

I can 'splain that, though many may not like the explanation and I'm not sure I agree with it.  To your former employer, it makes no difference where they send the money.  It's gone to them, whether you live in the UK or Outer Slobovia.  To the gub'ment, it makes a huge difference.  A pension pound sent to a UK resident bounces around the economy several times, being taxed and creating GDP along the way.  A pension pound sent to Outer Slobovia is gone.

 

Sucks, I know.  But fair play to them that they haven't changed the rules.  It was that way when retirees made the decision to retire in Thailand.  (I'm open to being ridiculed and corrected if that's wrong).

 

[frank83628]

1 hour ago, Brave-Fart said:

sorry for you, but I will endeavor to educate you , please read the following :   

• Insufficient savings or investments

  • Not saving enough during working years.

  • Living expenses outpacing savings rate.

• Poor investment returns

  • Bad investment choices (too conservative or too risky).

  • Market downturns at critical times (especially right before or after retirement).

• High cost of living

  • Living in an expensive location.

  • Inflation eroding purchasing power faster than anticipated.

• Unexpected expenses

  • Major health issues or medical bills.

  • Family emergencies (supporting children, parents, etc.).

• Debt problems

  • Carrying mortgage, credit card, or personal loan debts into retirement.

• Underestimating retirement duration

  • Living longer than expected (great for life, tough for finances).

• Lifestyle inflation

  • Increasing spending habits when income rises, rather than saving the extra.

• Lack of a clear financial plan

  • No retirement budget or withdrawal strategy.

  • No contingency planning for market crashes or emergencies.

• Unexpected economic events

  • Severe recessions or financial crises.

  • Currency devaluation (important if living abroad).

• Changes in government policies

  • Reduced pension or superannuation benefits.

  • Higher taxes or loss of social security supports.

• Divorce or relationship breakdown

  • Legal costs and asset division can severely impact retirement savings.

• Bad financial advice or scams

  • Falling victim to fraud or poor financial advice.

• Over-reliance on one asset

  • For example, counting only on a house appreciating or a business sale.

• Health preventing work continuation

  • Forced early retirement due to injury, illness, or disability.

• Poor insurance coverage

  • Not enough health, life, or long-term care insurance coverage.

• so as you can see there are many reasons which could lead to an individual not being financially well off later in life , and perhaps stop showing a lack of wisdom and maybe just show more empathy and understanding.

Just to confirm, I will not be 'educated' by you or anyone on ASEAN now, 

Other than unexpected economic events and perhaps divorce, all the above are down to the individual

[Celsius]

Wow. If you think there are a lot of GoFundMe articles on AseanNow you should hear the ongoing whinging and whining about Brits and their pensions!
 

Naturally set up a gofundme for the banker pls

[J Branche]

7 hours ago, Bannoi said:

If they can take the winter fuel allowance away from UK pensioners then there is no way they are going to give an increase to a pensioner living in Thailand.

 

There is a way around it though move back to UK get the increase then move back to Thailand or if you move to Philippines you would get the increase every year.

 

I agree it's not fair but its not going to change, a pensioner living in Thailand is very low down on the list of priorities. (They don't vote}

I'm not from UK but wouldn't you just get the increase for 1 year which internet says is 4.1%?  The airline and cost of living in the UK would end up putting you even further in the negative.

[Gknrd]

I fail to see the story here? So guy willingly signed up for this, now is not happy.  

 

[fasteddie]

''UK government, however, maintains that adjusting overseas pensions would cost nearly £1 billion annually''..... Would that be the money paid in by the workers and their employers during their working lives? It amounts to theft by the government, nothing less.

[newbee2022]

Every now and then the same heartbreaking story:

Old Brit, not the brightest candle, suddenly (hahaha) realized that he needs more money.

Ah yes, his pension did not rise. That nasty government. Shame on them. Start bashing UK (he ran away) and Starmer and all Lefties 😂.

I guess he should start a Lifetime #gofundme action.

🧑‍🎄🧑‍🎄🧑‍🎄

 

[Tiger1980]

23 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I can 'splain that, though many may not like the explanation and I'm not sure I agree with it.  To your former employer, it makes no difference where they send the money.  It's gone to them, whether you live in the UK or Outer Slobovia.  To the gub'ment, it makes a huge difference.  A pension pound sent to a UK resident bounces around the economy several times, being taxed and creating GDP along the way.  A pension pound sent to Outer Slobovia is gone.

 

Sucks, I know.  But fair play to them that they haven't changed the rules.  It was that way when retirees made the decision to retire in Thailand.  (I'm open to being ridiculed and corrected if that's wrong).

 

Are you stating that the USA is part of the U.K. while Canada is in Outer Slobovia?

[ChrisKC]

This problem isn't new, I have lost out on increases for 15 years.

 

What is NOT recognised by the UK Government is that the elderly are much more likely to consume National Health resources that would actually cost THEM more if we stayed there!

 

Yes, Pensioners living abroad actually saves them money!

 

If you lived in the Philippines, increases are paid in line with UK citizens!

[Kwausie]

6 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

How could that happen to a "former banker"?

 

6 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

How could that happen to a "former banker"?

 

6 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

How could that happen to a "former banker"?

Easy ask his former girlfriends!