11 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Not this again, it's been done to death.

 

False NATO promises not to expand, expansion, Ukraine jumping into Bed with the USA and EU.

 

This is becoming a habit. Once again, we are in agreement: This has been done to death.

 

Oh well, it couldn't last. We all know the reasons: Basically, it is down to Putin's refusal to allow Ukraine to look to Brussels, rather than Moscow, for its' economic future, combined with Putin's belief that Ukraine is not a sovereign state but merely part of a Greater Russia.

3 minutes ago, RayC said:

Basically, it is down to Putin's refusal to allow Ukraine to look to Brussels, rather than Moscow, f

 

And I agree with you here, this is correct.

 

4 minutes ago, RayC said:

Putin's belief that Ukraine is not a sovereign state but merely part of a Greater Russia.

 

This is of course embarassing NATO propaganda. Putin's statements say the opposite.

12 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

That's a good idea.

 

Trump can go to Alaska while Putin, Zelenskyy and VDL meet in, say, Oslo.

Go for it. Hes your boogeyman.

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

And I agree with you here, this is correct.

 

Thanks

 

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

 

This is of course embarassing NATO propaganda. Putin's statements say the opposite.

 

Hardly "embarrassing NATO propaganda". Straight from the horse's mouth.

 

https://www.prlib.ru/en/article-vladimir-putin-historical-unity-russians-and-ukrainians

 

Not the first time that I have posted this or another official Kremlin link stating similar.

5 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Go for it. Hes your boogeyman.

 

He's the world's bogeyman.

Just now, RayC said:

 

He's the world's bogeyman.

Fight against us. Come out of the shadows keyboard commando!

35 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Fight against us. Come out of the shadows keyboard commando!

 

Sigh ...... What a pathetic response.

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Sigh ...... What a pathetic response.

To a pathetic run of posts.

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

To a pathetic run of posts.

 

Nice to be able to finally agree about something

2 hours ago, RayC said:

 

Thanks

 

 

Hardly "embarrassing NATO propaganda". Straight from the horse's mouth.

 

https://www.prlib.ru/en/article-vladimir-putin-historical-unity-russians-and-ukrainians

 

Not the first time that I have posted this or another official Kremlin link stating similar.

 

Yes, it is just NATO propaganda to suggest that Putin wants to establish an old historical empire. He wants nothing of the sort and has stated so repeatedly. The article  you posted is excellent, as an analysis of history. It in no way implies Russia wants to re-establish any old empires or annex the Ukraine. Quite the opposite, from the very article you posted:

 

We respect the Ukrainian language and traditions. We respect Ukrainians' desire to see their country free, safe and prosperous. Russia has never been and will never be ”anti-Ukraine“. And what Ukraine will be – it is up to its citizens to decide.

On 8/11/2025 at 8:33 AM, Tug said:

If Harris was there Russia would be on its back possibly suing for peace,for 100% sure Ukraine would be in a much much stronger position our economy would be stronger the world safer out education system would be better the laws would be followed as well as the constitution and our democracy would be in less danger.

Facts. With Harris, Ukraine would never have been abandoned by Trump and his embarrassing administration, like we have seen since January.

 

The fact that people on here don't understand that, shows they have no clue about this war.

1 minute ago, thaibreaker said:

Facts. With Harris, Ukraine would never have been abandoned by Trump and his embarrassing administration, like we have seen since January.

 

The fact that people on here don't understand that, shows they have no clue about this war.

 

 

 

Why did the Biden administration put an end to it? 

 

What would Harris have done differently?

9 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

 

 

Why did the Biden administration put an end to it? 

 

What would Harris have done differently?

Seriously? Biden's (and Kamala's) administration would have continued to arm Ukraine, and supported them any way necessary. And more importantly, they would never abandoned other NATO nations, like Trump has been trying since day one.

 

Trump is back at it now, like he did back in February, telling Ukraine and Zelensky that they never should have started this war... He is clearly in Putin's pockets.

 

RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE!

Incoming nothing burger. It will be nothing but political theatre that will result in poor optics for all parties involved. 

2 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

Seriously? Biden's administration would have continued to arm Ukraine, and supported them any way necessary.

US boots on the ground? 

2 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

 

And more importantly, they would never abandoned other NATO nations, like Trump has been trying since day one.

What other NATO countries has Trump abandoned? It seems he was pretty well received at the last meeting, and that NATO seems much stronger than its been in a while, no? 

33 minutes ago, mogandave said:

US boots on the ground? 

What other NATO countries has Trump abandoned? It seems he was pretty well received at the last meeting, and that NATO seems much stronger than its been in a while, no? 

No boots on any ground. Ukraine has been fully capable of fighting the Russians all by themselves, but they were abandoned by the US when they needed them the most, with arms and intelligence, and still are.

 

No, you obviously don't understand how the US role has changed within NATO from when Biden was president, until now. They were a clear unity back then, now there are very much a split between USA and the other NATO nations. 

Why do you think the European NATO members several times have had crisis meetings to discuss Trump's solo ride with Russia? The US wouldn't even include Europe with any peace talks and cease fire with Russia. Trump even blamed Ukraine for the war, and still does.

 

The European part of NATO is no longer trusting the US, they're not even trusting they will come to a rescue if article 5 was going into effect. However, we still need to have the best relations we can with the US, and that's what we saw the last time Trump came to a meeting with NATO. With Rutte embarrassing himself by licking Trump's boots. They did what they thought was necessary to not lose the US support.

 

NATO is in crisis, but European countries have finally decided to arm themselves considerably more because of the Russian threats these last years. That is also because we no longer can trust USA to be our allies.

 

These are the facts we are facing in Europe today.

With Kamala, everything would have been different. We would still have a strong NATO, better armed, and a better united one for sure. With no hiccups in the support of Ukraine.

 

Btw, I don't know if you remember how Trump threatened to take over Greenland, even with military force.. Greenland is a part of Denmark, a highly respected NATO member.

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

 

Yes, it is just NATO propaganda to suggest that Putin wants to establish an old historical empire. He wants nothing of the sort and has stated so repeatedly. The article  you posted is excellent, as an analysis of history. It in no way implies Russia wants to re-establish any old empires or annex the Ukraine. Quite the opposite, from the very article you posted:

 

We respect the Ukrainian language and traditions. We respect Ukrainians' desire to see their country free, safe and prosperous. Russia has never been and will never be ”anti-Ukraine“. And what Ukraine will be – it is up to its citizens to decide.

 

Dear me. That is a spin that Pravda would have been proud of during the Cold War years: There is no logical way to interpret that piece other than the author (Putin) believes that Russia, Belarus and Ukraine are one nation. 

 

You'll be telling me next that the USSR consisted of national republics which were free to disagree with the Kremlin during the Stalin years.

 

In your final paragraph, you use "we". Are you Russian?

17 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

No boots on any ground. Ukraine has been fully capable of fighting the Russians all by themselves, but they were abandoned by the US when they needed them the most, with arms and intelligence, and still are.

 

No, you obviously don't understand how the US role has changed within NATO from when Biden was president, until now. They were a clear unity back then, now there are very much a split between USA and the other NATO nations. 

Why do you think the European NATO members several times have had crisis meetings to discuss Trump's solo ride with Russia? The US wouldn't even include Europe with any peace talks and cease fire with Russia. Trump even blamed Ukraine for the war, and still does.

 

The European part of NATO is no longer trusting the US, they're not even trusting they will come to a rescue if article 5 was going into effect. However, we still need to have the best relations we can with the US, and that's what we saw the last time Trump came to a meeting with NATO. Rutte even embarrassed himself by licking Trump's boots.

 

NATO is in crisis, but European countries have finally decided to arm themselves more because of the Russian threats these last years. That is also because we no longer can trust USA to be our allies.

 

These are the facts we are facing in Europe today.

With Kamala, everything would have been different. We would still have a strong NATO, better armed, and a better united one for sure. With no hiccups in the support of Ukraine.

But no NATO boots on the ground in Ukraine, correct? 

 

Do you believe NATO members increased spending would have happened if Harris had been elected?

23 minutes ago, mogandave said:

But no NATO boots on the ground in Ukraine, correct? 

 

Do you believe NATO members increased spending would have happened if Harris had been elected?

No NATO boots on the ground, before after the war is over, correct. Then just to secure peace.

What Ukraine has needed, is more military and intelligence support, vehicles, tanks, long range weapons, more airplanes, more Patriot, Himars and all that, continuing without hiccups. Hellfire would be great too.

Lack of all that is why Russia has been breaking through at a couple of areas these last months. Ukraine does a helluva job holding the lines, but they need more support. Europe is doing what they can, but it's not enough without the US.

 

Yes, absolutely, the reason why Europe has woken up, is because of the Russian threat to European countries, that would have happened regardless of any American presidents. Times changed in 2022.

 

I would say Europe has an even better reason to do it WITH Trump, because now we can't be sure the US will come to our rescue if Russia invaded more European countries. Europe is preparing to stand on their own feet.

13 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

No NATO boots on the ground, before after the war is over, correct. Then just to secure peace.

What Ukraine has needed, is more military and intelligence support, vehicles, tanks, long range weapons, more airplanes, more Patriot, Himars and all that, continuing without hiccups. Hellfire would be great too.

Lack of all that is why Russia has been breaking through at a couple of areas these last months. Ukraine does a helluva job holding the lines, but they need more support.

 

Yes, absolutely, the reason why Europe has woken up, is because of the Russian threat to European countries, that would have happened regardless of any American presidents. Times changed in 2022.

 

I would say Europe has an even better reason to do it WITH Trump, because now we can't be sure the US will come to our rescue if Russia invaded more European countries. Europe is preparing to stand on their own feet.

Do you remember that NATO increased spending after being jawboned during Trump’s first term? 

 

Do you remember Trump providing Ukraine with arms  during his first term that the previous administration refused to provide? 

 

Do you remember those arms shipments being paused by the Biden Administration to appease Putin? 

 

Do you remember Trump sanctioning Russia in his first term, and the Biden Administration canceling those sanctions to appease Putin? 

 

It is good that Europe is arming up. 

What are the chances that Trump exchanges Alaska for a piece of occupied Ukraine? I have it at 50/50

9 hours ago, Seppius said:

No way Putin will turn up

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-tries-make-sudden-advance-ukraine-before-trump-putin-summit-2025-08-12/

 

While the negotiation takes place 

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

Do you remember that NATO increased spending after being jawboned during Trump’s first term? 

 

Do you remember Trump providing Ukraine with arms  during his first term that the previous administration refused to provide? 

 

Do you remember those arms shipments being paused by the Biden Administration to appease Putin? 

 

Do you remember Trump sanctioning Russia in his first term, and the Biden Administration canceling those sanctions to appease Putin? 

 

It is good that Europe is arming up. 

As I said, everything changed in 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine. Until then, Europe and NATO, with the US, still believed in diplomacy and talks. Russia proved once again that you can't trust them. You can't reason with them. They only understand war and suffering.

 

Biden did all he could during this war, but you know perfectly well that his administration needed approval in the Congress to keep up his support at the end of his term. That was when Trump really started to have a say from outside, and the speaker and several more important votes did exactly what he told them to do. Trump was going to end this war in 24 hours, remember.

 

Aren't you American? You should know all this. Biden wanted continued arm support, but his efforts in the end were halted by the Congress and the Republicans for a long while, before he got at least some of it through in the end. That pause, not caused by Biden, really hurt Ukraine a lot.

After Trump took over, it was full stop for a long while, of which we are seeing the result now. Russia has got a lot more "cards" in eventual peace negotiations now than they would have.

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

Do you remember that NATO increased spending after being jawboned during Trump’s first term? 

 

Do you remember Trump providing Ukraine with arms  during his first term that the previous administration refused to provide? 

 

Do you remember those arms shipments being paused by the Biden Administration to appease Putin? 

 

Do you remember Trump sanctioning Russia in his first term, and the Biden Administration canceling those sanctions to appease Putin? 

 

It is good that Europe is arming up. 

Don’t worry Dave trump will be with his pal making Russia great again .nato the eu and the United States not so much.certainly not the brave nation fighting for its life against a criminal gang of murdering looting rapists.

35 minutes ago, Tug said:

Don’t worry Dave trump will be with his pal making Russia great again .nato the eu and the United States not so much.certainly not the brave nation fighting for its life against a criminal gang of murdering looting rapists.

Im not worried tugger, but thanks for your concern. 

2 hours ago, thaibreaker said:

As I said, everything changed in 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine. Until then, Europe and NATO, with the US, still believed in diplomacy and talks. Russia proved once again that you can't trust them. You can't reason with them. They only understand war and suffering.

 

Biden did all he could during this war, but you know perfectly well that his administration needed approval in the Congress to keep up his support at the end of his term. That was when Trump really started to have a say from outside, and the speaker and several more important votes did exactly what he told them to do. Trump was going to end this war in 24 hours, remember.

 

Aren't you American? You should know all this. Biden wanted continued arm support, but his efforts in the end were halted by the Congress and the Republicans for a long while, before he got at least some of it through in the end. That pause, not caused by Biden, really hurt Ukraine a lot.

After Trump took over, it was full stop for a long while, of which we are seeing the result now. Russia has got a lot more "cards" in eventual peace negotiations now than they would have.

Exactly.

Biden, unlike Putin's poodle Trump, never halted aid without being forced to by the fascist maga Trump forces.

HOWEVER, to be fair, his performance was less than ideal.

He was constantly putting restrictions on specific arms for Ukraine and what they would be allowed to do with them.

This was mostly about being spooked by Putin's nuclear threats games and also about a fear of the global instability that would result if Russia actually lost (such as breakup of Russia, new states having nukes, etc.).

Biden never abandoned Ukraine but the aid was never enough for them to have a chance of winning, only holding on.

That proved a mistake as that set the table for the totally evil pro Putin behavior of the Trump regime.

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Exactly.

Biden, unlike Putin's poodle Trump, never halted aid without being forced to by the fascist maga Trump forces.

HOWEVER, to be fair, his performance was less than ideal.

He was constantly putting restrictions on specific arms for Ukraine and what they would be allowed to do with them.

This was mostly about being spooked by Putin's nuclear threats games and also about a fear of the global instability that would result if Russia actually lost (such as breakup of Russia, new states having nukes, etc.).

Biden never abandoned Ukraine but the aid was never enough for them to have a chance of winning, only holding on.

That proved a mistake as that set the table for the totally evil pro Putin behavior of the Trump regime.

 

Correct, but we all did. We were all a bit cautious with our approach in the beginning, but sent more and more qualified and needed equipment as the war moved on. The nuclear threats were taken more seriously in the beginning, until we all understood these were only empty words, and that their military was far from as strong as we feared it was. They couldn't even overtake Ukraine..

China was also on the ball and stated they would never approve a nuclear holocaust started by Russia.

 

So this has nothing to do with Biden alone, but a joint understanding and approach by NATO as a whole, as the war moved ahead. However, both Biden and Jens Stoltenberg, the chief of NATO, were very firm in saying they would support Ukraine "as long as it would take". 

Unfortunately, in retrospect, it is now clear that if they would start supporting with much heavier weapons at a much earlier stage, Russia would probably have been driven out of Ukraine by now. But we didn't know how weak their military was back then.

 

It took Europe a couple of years to send their 50-ish fighter jets for instance, after only supporting with body arms and light weapons in the beginning.

The problem was since Ukraine wasn't a member of NATO, we (the west) decided not to go all in, but supported Ukraine nevertheless to secure stability in the region. Especially Europe could not sit still in the boat, watching Russia take over Ukraine. That would be, and will still be, a disaster for the future of Europe.

23 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Not this again, it's been done to death.

 

False NATO promises not to expand, expansion, Ukraine jumping into Bed with the USA and EU.

The uncalled for, endless eastward expansion of NATO is the root cause. Russia has no geographical "protection" in the west (mountain ranges, swamps etc). Stalin made the East Europen Countries his "buffer zone".

 

Putin wants to re-establish a "buffer zone". We can only hope that the Ukraine will be considered as enough "buffer zone" by Putin.

The absolutely uncalled for, absolutely unnecessary eastward expansion of NATO may well be the root cause for the "Ukrainian War". Over the years, Putin has warned over and over again, that Russia will be forced to couteract this provocation eventually.

1 minute ago, swissie said:

The uncalled for, endless eastward expansion of NATO is the root cause. Russia has no geographical "protection" in the west (mountain ranges, swamps etc). Stalin made the East Europen Countries his "buffer zone".

 

Putin wants to re-establish a "buffer zone". We can only hope that the Ukraine will be considered as enough "buffer zone" by Putin.

The absolutely uncalled for, absolutely unnecessary eastward expansion of NATO may well be the root cause for the "Ukrainian War". Over the years, Putin has warned over and over again, that Russia will be forced to couteract this provocation eventually.

 

Swissie gets it.

8 minutes ago, swissie said:

The uncalled for, endless eastward expansion of NATO is the root cause. Russia has no geographical "protection" in the west (mountain ranges, swamps etc). Stalin made the East Europen Countries his "buffer zone".

 

Putin wants to re-establish a "buffer zone". We can only hope that the Ukraine will be considered as enough "buffer zone" by Putin.

The absolutely uncalled for, absolutely unnecessary eastward expansion of NATO may well be the root cause for the "Ukrainian War". Over the years, Putin has warned over and over again, that Russia will be forced to couteract this provocation eventually.

Yet you ignore that the reason for this extension is that Eastern European countries did not want to be under the yoke of Russia again. For them, it was absolutely necessary.

 

You also ignore that NATO was absolutely no threat to Russia, as attested by the decrease of military budgets in Europe,  as well as a decrease of U.S. military presence after the collapse of the Soviet Union.