On 8/29/2025 at 1:10 PM, thailandsgreat said:

Is Big C scaling down because farlang are fewer?

 

It's not scaling down, it's redeveloping.

 

Inevitably there will be changes as it evolves but outwith the hypermarket itself AIS/Telewiz have already opened back in their original space and Fuji have posted dates for re-opening.  Thai post and Amazon are also both expecting to move back to where they were once work is finished.  Dairy Queen (?)  is the only one I've heard is really gone but that could be Chinese whispers.

 

This is what Big C themself have posted.

 

 

 

18 hours ago, kinyara said:

Why are falang fewer ? - Not seen any numbers to support that theory nationally let alone in Pattaya.

Tourism is down by about 7%.  There's a lot of data from credible sources on the internet.  I posted one link showing this.  High season numbers will be interesting. 

17 hours ago, newnative said:

The big question for me would be are more people leaving than are settling in Pattaya.   I think there are many more arriving than leaving-

The stats don't show this.  Tourism is down by 7%.  If you are talking about retirees, "holidays" are the best advertisement for a retirement destination.  If people are holidaying elsewhere, they will most likely chose that country as their retirement destination, so if the downward trend continues, you can expect less expat retirees here in the future.  

 

I would suggest if / when Vietnam introduces a retirement visa that can be extended inside country, then not only will you see an exodus, but you will also see new retirees chose Vietnam over Thailand.  

17 hours ago, newnative said:

Judging by the demographics of the housing projects I have lived at, including several new ones, the settlers are coming from a variety of countries and seem to be filling the new housing projects as they are built.  

Just more talking up the real estate market from you.  I call BS.  Property not moving here.   Thousands of properties on the market, whilst they are still building more. 

17 hours ago, shdmn said:

You people must be living in a different reality than I am.  Pattaya was busier than I have ever seen last high season.  This must be another one of these threads that never die, where all the people with short term memories hang out, talking about how nobody is going to Thailand anymore when it's just a typical low season.

Tourism down 7%.  Fact. 

16 hours ago, newnative said:

     Liked your post.   The perception has been that western tourists have been in steep decline for many, many years.  I haven't bothered to check the past few years but I know that pre-covid from I think 2015 to 2019 only one 'western' country had a slight decline in numbers, Australia, and it was very slight.  The rest mostly had small gains of various amounts, not large but not in steep decline, either.  Still, the false perception persists.

    As you point out, the reality is that we now have "as well".   Along with the western visitors, we now have lots of new visitors from Asian and other countries, "as well".  That's how Thailand got to nearly 40 million international visitors in 2019--all the "as well" countries like China, India, and Russia adding greatly to the numbers, along with the stable or slightly higher western numbers.  Nice to see Germany and the UK back to their pre-covid levels; thanks for sharing that.

Tourism is down 7%.  When the TAT saw the western country tourist numbers dropping, they propped up the stats by targeting China, India etc.  The declining western tourists numbers were replaced by "zero baht" tourists.  Remember that term? 

 

The Chinese do organized tours, with the company often being a Chinese company with profits either remaining in China, or being repatriated back to China.  The Indians and Arabs do not have a "drinking" culture, so while the TAT kept the numbers up, hospitality venues didn't benefit from the new demographic of tourists.  

 

I had a look on Agoda at some of the large and popular hotels in Central Pattaya.  Plenty of availability for the high season.  Perhaps many have not bothered to book early, or perhaps many are just not coming here next high season.  Time will tell. 

16 hours ago, Lee65 said:

 

So the tables above largely support this view.  And go a long way in addressing the title of this thread: "The Transformation of Pattaya".

Is this fake news?

 

Is the Bangkok Post a credible source? 

 

Has the Tourism and Sports Ministry got it wrong? 

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/3089318/thailand-records-7-04-y-y-drop-in-foreign-visitors-so-far-in-2025

 

"Thailand's foreign tourist arrivals from Jan 1 to Aug 17 fell 7.04% from the same period a year earlier, the Tourism and Sports Ministry said on Tuesday."

 

 

37 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Tourism is down by about 7%.  There's a lot of data from credible sources on the internet.  I posted one link showing this.  High season numbers will be interesting. 

 

Pretty sure It's been reported as principally down to a further shortfall in the Chinese this year, same as last year. They are the only market of a size that can significantly impact the overall numbers.

 

2019 - 39.8m.  2024 - 35.5m  ( 4.3 million )

 

Chinese

2019 - 11.1m.  2024 - 6.7m ( 4.4 million )

 

13 minutes ago, kinyara said:

Pretty sure It's been reported as principally down

Yes, by about 7%. 

 

I posted a couple of links showing this. 

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, by about 7%. 

 

I posted a couple of links showing this. 

 

Yes Chinese as opposed to Western markets. Just Google it for this year, 2.69 million for the first 7 months and struggling to hit 5 million compared to 6.7 million last year. 

22 hours ago, Lee65 said:

 

I took the liberty of running your post through Paraphraser:

The main points from the text are:

• One grocery store's condition (Big C Extra) does not reflect city population trends, as Pattaya has many grocery options and home delivery available.

• Big C Extra may be experiencing lower foot traffic possibly due to needing a makeover or other reasons, not necessarily a decline in the expat population.

• The expat population in Pattaya is likely increasing since 2010 and becoming more dispersed.

• Many new large condo projects have been built in the last 15 years, with about 30-40% of units purchased by foreigners; more projects are ongoing or planned.

• Numerous housing projects have also been developed on the Darkside area, with many fully occupied and more under construction.

• Ownership demographics in these housing projects are diverse, representing a wide variety of nationalities beyond just Western expats.

• Some smaller developers have built multiple projects on the Darkside, adding significantly to housing availability alongside major developers.

Overall, the text argues that Pattaya's expat population growth and housing development are robust, despite localized business fluctuations.paraphraser

1. https://www.paraphraser.io/text-summarizer

      Saw an interesting quote in Variety from the film director Guillermo del Toro regarding artificial intelligence.  He said, "I'm not afraid of artificial intelligence.  I'm afraid of natural stupidity."  I'd probably choose both.

      I definitely dislike having words I never wrote passed off as mine by posters on the Forum.  I get enough of that with real-life posters misquoting me, quoting passages out of context, and also deciding for themselves what I am 'thinking', or 'believing' and then taking it upon themselves to write these imaginary thoughts and beliefs as mine.   I think one time I mentioned in a post that I like owning the space I live in and a poster responded with something like: "So, it's your belief that every expat living in Thailand should own rather than rent."  No--and how the poster came to that 'belief' is beyond me.

     Nowhere in my post did I use the word 'robust' to describe either expat growth or housing development.  What I made with housing were observations of activity and demographics with 'robust' not mentioned.   Nor did I say that 'smaller developers have built multiple projects on the Darkside.'  That might be true but it wasn't what I said.  What I said was I know ONE small developer who has built multiple projects on the Darkside.  Again, not quite the same thing.   With regard to expat growth, what I actually said was that Google gave mixed results but it was my opinion that the expat population was 'increasing' rather than in decline.  Not the same thing as saying it's 'robust'.  

    The problem, of course, is someone will read the AI post and see that Newnative has said this and that about a subject, when the reality is that Newnative actually hasn't said that at all.  Instead, an AI robot has put words in my mouth that I didn't say.  

    Since I'm already contending with human posters mangling what I post, I'd rather not have to contend with some AI robot doing the same thing.  Such programs are there for you to use on your own, of course, if you don't have time to read what I post but I'd appreciate your not using them to change what I write and then post the inaccurate results in the public domain.  Thank you.  

      

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

The stats don't show this.  Tourism is down by 7%.  If you are talking about retirees, "holidays" are the best advertisement for a retirement destination.  If people are holidaying elsewhere, they will most likely chose that country as their retirement destination, so if the downward trend continues, you can expect less expat retirees here in the future.  

 

I would suggest if / when Vietnam introduces a retirement visa that can be extended inside country, then not only will you see an exodus, but you will also see new retirees chose Vietnam over Thailand.  

Just more talking up the real estate market from you.  I call BS.  Property not moving here.   Thousands of properties on the market, whilst they are still building more. 

     In 2010, when I arrived in Thailand, there were a little less than 16 million international tourists--your 'holidays' potentially becoming 'retirees'.  This year, there will likely be double that number.  So, while tourism might be down 7%, it's still way higher than it was years ago.  That means 32 million potential retirees this year vs. 16 million potential retirees, including me, in 2010.  Your argument doesn't hold up--as always.  32 million explains why developers are finding buyers for their product--as they also did in 2010 with 16 million, including me buying my first Pattaya condo.  

     You're still making the same old incorrect argument with your tired 'thousands of properties on the market'--which I have explained numerous times as to why it is meaningless.   As always, what is meaningful is the number of properties for sale that match your minimum buying criteria of location, size, and price.  This is not brain surgery and you should be able to grasp this by now.   Remember my example of selling my VW Bug before I moved to Thailand?  How I wasn't competing with used pickups?  It's exactly the same with housing.   If a glut does develop of 'X' in location 'Y',  there will soon be less of 'X' being made.   We have seen that with certain auto makers--"X" in Thailand--"Y".

    Meanwhile, have you finally done any actual research yourself?   Visited any new condo or housing projects in Pattaya to check their sales?   Been to the Land Office and checked if it's sleepy or busy?   Watched any Youtube Pattaya property websites to school yourself a bit on what is being built these days, and where, in both condos and houses?  

4 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Tourism is down 7%.  When the TAT saw the western country tourist numbers dropping, they propped up the stats by targeting China, India etc.  The declining western tourists numbers were replaced by "zero baht" tourists.  Remember that term? 

 

The Chinese do organized tours, with the company often being a Chinese company with profits either remaining in China, or being repatriated back to China.  The Indians and Arabs do not have a "drinking" culture, so while the TAT kept the numbers up, hospitality venues didn't benefit from the new demographic of tourists.  

 

I had a look on Agoda at some of the large and popular hotels in Central Pattaya.  Plenty of availability for the high season.  Perhaps many have not bothered to book early, or perhaps many are just not coming here next high season.  Time will tell. 

    Oh, dear.  Not the old, tired, incorrect 'zero dollar tourist' argument.   You can do better than that.  In reality, Google estimates that 80% of Chinese tourists to Thailand these days are independent travelers.  That's up from around 65% pre-covid.   So, these tour groups were never in the majority.  But, in any case, try telling all the Thai tourist workers employed because of tourists, in tour groups or not, that some tourists are not important.  The employed Thai hospitality worker could care less where the tourist is from.     

     If hospitality venues are not benefitting from the 'new demographic of tourists', perhaps you can explain why Centre Point is building a third huge resort in Pattaya, right across the street from its second one, Centre Point Space.  Or, maybe explain why Centara just did a major makeover of its Pattaya resort.  How about the Once developer doing its massive redevelopment of large plots of land across the street from T21?  The new go-cart track?  The new water park on the Darkside?   Plus, hotel makeovers and expansions, new restaurants, new retail.  Pattaya Second Road from Festival to T21 has had lots of redevelopment.  Just a few examples of many.  I would argue the new hospitality venues and all the rest are largely a result of the changing demographics of the tourist market--and in a good way.

4 minutes ago, newnative said:

You can do better than that. 

 

Jeez, you must be one of probably only 5 members who don't have this troll on ignore yet.

7 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Is this fake news?

 

Is the Bangkok Post a credible source? 

 

Has the Tourism and Sports Ministry got it wrong? 

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/3089318/thailand-records-7-04-y-y-drop-in-foreign-visitors-so-far-in-2025

 

"Thailand's foreign tourist arrivals from Jan 1 to Aug 17 fell 7.04% from the same period a year earlier, the Tourism and Sports Ministry said on Tuesday."

 

 

You keep repeating those numbers over and over again from one source as if they tell the whole story.  Lets assume they are accurate, and that's a big if.  For starters, it's only for a 6 month period.  Secondly, it's only comparing to the same period in 2024, which was an unusually high year for tourism due to various things, not the least of which were the visa changes.  The numbers never did fully recover post covid to pre covid so there is a longer term trend involved as well that didn't just start in 2025.

 

That story is also agenda driven basically only talking about a small drop in Chinese tourism.  That is probably because of some negative stories that came out about Thailand, but also because there is a trend this year for Chinese to travel domestically.  Both of those are short term so it's just a small blip and not very meaningful.

4 hours ago, newnative said:

... I'd appreciate your not using them to change what I write and then post the inaccurate results in the public domain.  Thank you.

 

Got it.  

12 hours ago, CallumWK said:

 

Jeez, you must be one of probably only 5 members who don't have this troll on ignore yet.

     Except, if everyone puts him on ignore then his misinformation is allowed to stand unchallenged.  I'll volunteer for all his Pattaya real estate nonsense and maybe others will step up for other topics. 

20 hours ago, shdmn said:

You keep repeating those numbers over and over again from one source

Do you have any links to different stats that show tourism IS NOT down 7% in Thailand in 2025?  As high season approaches, that 7% could go as high as 15%. 

23 hours ago, newnative said:

Not the old, tired, incorrect 'zero dollar tourist' argument. 

Fake news, is it? 

 

7 years jail for a myth. 

 

https://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-zero-baht-tour-company-bosses-sentenced-to-over-7-years-in-jail-face-fresh-charges-66181.php

 

Look at the extent of their assets that were seized.  Buses, boats, land etc. 

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/phuket/Boisterous-bidding-raises-B1027mn-Tranlee-auction

 

"Incorrect" is it? 

On 8/31/2025 at 10:57 AM, newnative said:

So, while tourism might be down 7%,

So, you now agree tourism is down 7%.  Right?  

On 8/31/2025 at 10:57 AM, newnative said:

You're still making the same old incorrect argument with your tired 'thousands of properties on the market'--which I have explained numerous times as to why it is meaningless.

Yawn. 

 

Same old hard sell from you. 

 

Supply and demand market forces. 

 

There is a massive oversupply here putting downward pressure on sales and rents. 

On 8/31/2025 at 8:04 AM, kinyara said:

 

Yes Chinese as opposed to Western markets. Just Google it for this year, 2.69 million for the first 7 months and struggling to hit 5 million compared to 6.7 million last year. 

Yes, so tourism is down 7%.  Right?

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Fake news, is it? 

 

7 years jail for a myth. 

 

https://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-zero-baht-tour-company-bosses-sentenced-to-over-7-years-in-jail-face-fresh-charges-66181.php

 

Look at the extent of their assets that were seized.  Buses, boats, land etc. 

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/phuket/Boisterous-bidding-raises-B1027mn-Tranlee-auction

 

"Incorrect" is it? 

    Your article has absolutely nothing to do with legitimate tour companies, in China or anywhere else.  And, yes, you are still totally incorrect regarding so-called zero dollar tourists.  NO tourist is a zero dollar tourist; every tourist visiting a country contributes to that country's economy.  This is true even if they stay at a hotel owned by their someone from their home country, or eat at a restaurant owned by another home country person.  Does. Not. Matter.   This is true whether you are talking about Thailand or France or any other country with a tourist industry.  

     Do you think Paris cares that Paris Disney is owned by an American company and the profits go back to America?  No.  Paris benefits thru taxes paid by Disney and French citizens employed by Disney.  These workers, paid by Disney, also pay taxes, and spend their salaries buying things, which, in turn, keep other French citizens employed.  

     Absolutely no different with a Thai hotel worker being paid by a Chinese hotel owner.  The Thai is employed, earns a salary, and buys things--since he has money to buy things, being employed.  His buying things puts money in circulation and allows the people he buys from to also earn money and, in turn, also buy things.  Do I really have to explain basic economics to you?

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yawn. 

 

Same old hard sell from you. 

 

Supply and demand market forces. 

 

There is a massive oversupply here putting downward pressure on sales and rents. 

    How are you doing with your actual research, rather than your vague 'massive oversupply' and your other tiresome, repetitive generalities?   How are the sales at Copacabana?  Is the project sitting empty with no buyers?  What did you find when you visited?  How about the Riviera projects?  What's your report from those six or so projects?   What percentage of the units have been sold and how many still not sold?  We're all waiting.  Any buyers at Arom Wongamat?  

     While you're at it, where exactly is this 'massive oversupply'--with projects sitting empty with no buyers?  Pinpoint it for us.  I keep telling you to go out and see for yourself and report back, as I do, but all you do is spout the same old hot air.  Boring!

     What about single family housing?   What's your report from that front?  Supalai has a big project called Supalai Parkville on the Darkside.  How's it doing?  Any buyers?  How about the Sensiri townhouse project by Sansiri, also on the Darkside?  How's that doing?  Is your 'massive oversupply' impacting sales there?  How are the Patta projects doing?  Anybody living at the Baan Mae projects or Siam Royal View--or are they ghost towns?  How's Baan Pattaya 6 doing?  Prospect?  Reservoir Road?  Parkside Pool Villas?  Let's have something solid from you for a change--something we can sink our teeth into.  It's all been the same old thin gruel from you.  

     

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, so tourism is down 7%.  Right?

Your usual deflection when you can't answer anything I've posted.  Go back to my post and answer the questions I posed.   

On 8/29/2025 at 11:09 PM, redwood1 said:

Big C extras downfall started the day they got rid of the FREE plastic bags for bagging groceries in 2020 right before covid...

It may seem like a small thing but if you only bring one bag you will then limit what you buy...

 

Many stores have gone back to giving away free plastic bags....Why has not Big C Extra?

 

Why has Big C extra  not gone back to selling meat again?.....

The meat counter has been Dead Dead Dead all day long every day since they had that other company run and triple meat prices.

 

Before the meat department was Busy Busy Busy all day every day....

 

Big Cs downfall  is a lot of their own making....

 

I just said screw big C Extra and mostly shop at Makro now...

 

Makro must be generous with FREE plastic bags 😀

21 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, so tourism is down 7%.  Right?

 

Yes, just pointing out to the OP that it is not due to a decline in Western tourism as he was suggesting.

 

Presumably as you've stressed in the past that the growth in Chinese tourism brought little positive benefit to Thailand, if you're not a total hypocrite you won't see this 7% decline due to a drop in Chinese tourism as an issue ? 

1 hour ago, kinyara said:

Yes, just pointing out to the OP that it is not due to a decline in Western tourism as he was suggesting.

I accept a large percentage of the 7% that tourism is down is Chinese, however, surely due to inflation, high cost of living, interest rate increases etc, many will not be able to afford their annual, or one of their bi-annual holidays to Thailand.  The global economy must be having an effect of many around the world. 

 

Like I said, this high season will be interesting, and there is plenty of availability on the Agoda website on some random high season dates I ran. 

 

1 hour ago, kinyara said:

Presumably as you've stressed in the past that the growth in Chinese tourism brought little positive benefit to Thailand, if you're not a total hypocrite you won't see this 7% decline due to a drop in Chinese tourism as an issue ? 

You raise an interesting point, and it's been debated before, and that is, tourist numbers versus their "spend."  As mentioned, when western tourist numbers were in decline, the TAT targeted tourists from emerging economies like China and India.  This kept the tourism numbers high, but the "spend" was way down.  What is the point of having more tourists if they do not inject money into the tourism industry?  

 

In the case of the Chinese, most paid for their whole tour in China.  Food, transport, activities, sightseeing etc, all paid in China.  As shown by some links previously posted, the Chinese tour operator owned buses, boats, hotels, land etc, further maximizing profits being repatriated back to China.  

 

The OP asked "Why is farang fewer?"  His question was in relation to Big C, which tends to have expats shopping there.  The expat population here is aging.  I lost an elderly friend earlier this year.  Are new expat retirees keeping up with the attrition rate?

 

It's possible the next generation of retiring expat either don't see Pattaya / Thailand as a desirable retirement destination,  or, they simply can't afford to retire at retirement age and have to work longer years, or, they chose more value for money destinations.  There's also a possibility they the next generation of retiree still retires in Thailand, but just not in Pattaya. 

 

What is interesting is I can't see Chinese, Indian, Arab and Russian guys retiring here in the way westerner did in previous years.   

21 hours ago, newnative said:

Your usual deflection when you can't answer anything I've posted. 

No deflection. 

 

I've posted links from credible sources that have stats and data that you conveniently do not address.   

21 hours ago, newnative said:

How are you doing with your actual research,

I've posted links from credible sources with stats and data.  Obviously, I place more weight on those than I do your opinion and what you "see" when you can not produce links to support what you "see." 

 

Basically, your opinion is noting more than bar stool banter unless you can post links to back it up. 

 

Still waiting for a couple of links for some 20 million baht sales on the dark side. 

21 hours ago, newnative said:

And, yes, you are still totally incorrect regarding so-called zero dollar tourists. 

So, it's all fake news.  Is that correct?  Go on the record. 

 

If it's fake, how is it that it was all over the media, with arrests and asset confiscation????