On 2/15/2026 at 11:49 PM, spidermike007 said:

It's very true, a friend of mine was telling me that his father was a blue collar worker, and his mother did not work and yet they saved enough money to buy a duplex every two years when he was growing up, and by the time he was in college his father was a real estate mogul!

These days a lot of Americans can't even afford to buy a house and have given up on that dream. It's a completely broken economic system and everything is overinflated to a ridiculous degree. At least within the US. And the government has the audacity to tell us that inflation is down to 2.5%, that would be amusing if it wasn't so sad, fake, and pathetic.

This bubble will burst and the correction is going to be quite horrific.

"Friend of mine" story.

Bought a duplex every 2 years?

Bit short on detail Spidey.

Sounds like a barstool tale.🙃🙃

1 hour ago, gearbox said:

do you think the Chinese would be happy to manufacture t-shirts and flip flops forever on miserable wages?

The Chinese leadership is just fine being enriched with quasi-slave labor.

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Decimated by importing cheap immigrant labour that drives wages down.

Ask yourself who was campaigning for that from day one - answer? - the oligarchs and ultrarich businesspeople. But wait, I see they are in power again and are in the process of dismantling the rest of society (certainly in America). Trump's scrapping of allowing in highly skilled immigrants into the United States was enough for Musk to have a hissy fit and quit his WH job. Bezos destroys the WaPo - one of the few quality national newspapers left. Public health care is now in ruin, people are discouraged from vaccinating their kids against things like measles (and one can only wonder how providing health care to the masses could get any worse in a country whose governing party encourages private insurance companies to triple premiums). Meanwhile, children of US citizens and immigrant parents are being held in concentration camps, while US citizens are being attacked and killed by armed hooligans with a tin badge and no training.

1 hour ago, Lucky Bones said:

"Friend of mine" story.

Bought a duplex every 2 years?

Bit short on detail Spidey.

Sounds like a barstool tale.🙃🙃

It truly means less than zero whether or not you want to believe this story, it came from a dear friend of mine who really has no agenda, and no reason to lie about something like that.

However if it makes you feel comfortable, and it makes you feel like America is still affordable, wages are rising relative to inflation, the place is not expensive, and the quality of life there is still very high, go ahead and believe that all you want.

9 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

It truly means less than zero whether or not you want to believe this story, it came from a dear friend of mine who really has no agenda, and no reason to lie about something like that.

However if it makes you feel comfortable, and it makes you feel like America is still affordable, wages are rising relative to inflation, the place is not expensive, and the quality of life there is still very high, go ahead and believe that all you want.

Thanks Spidey.

Heartwarming stuff indeed.

I think "embellishment" would be the word to use, not "lie".

I stopped passing on bar talk years ago.

Nothing about America makes me feel comfortable.

Soi cat has more credibility.🙃🙃

2 hours ago, Lucky Bones said:

Thanks Spidey.

Heartwarming stuff indeed.

I think "embellishment" would be the word to use, not "lie".

I stopped passing on bar talk years ago.

Nothing about America makes me feel comfortable.

Soi cat has more credibility.🙃🙃

I make a pretty huge distinction between a story that a close and trusted friend tells me about his folks, and his childhood, and something that some guy in a bar tells me.

But I realize I'm a stranger to you, and you have a hard time wrapping you mind around the fact that their America was a functional society and a great economy 50 or 60 years ago, so let's just let this one rest. I don't have the interest or the energy to debate it.

On 2/15/2026 at 11:42 PM, swissie said:

So again, what happened to our "wages" in the west?

It was deliberate.

They stagnated the wages to force women into the workforce (which most women want anyway), but this made it impossible to raise a family on one salary as our parents did (unless you were a doctor or lawyer maybe).

7 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

Trump's scrapping of allowing in highly skilled immigrants

That's not really true. Trump put some reforms into the much abused H-1B program.

3 hours ago, save the frogs said:

It was deliberate.

They stagnated the wages to force women into the workforce (which most women want anyway), but this made it impossible to raise a family on one salary as our parents did (unless you were a doctor or lawyer maybe).

How about this:

The widespread entry of women into the workforce increased household incomes across society, which increased aggregate demand. In supply-constrained markets—especially housing—this led to permanently higher prices, making dual incomes necessary rather than optional.

your wages are being spent on saving the planet.

36 minutes ago, mordothailand said:

your wages are being spent on saving the planet.

... that doesn't need saving.

Humans on the other hand, seemed destined to self destruct ... eventually.

On 2/16/2026 at 2:35 PM, Fact said:

Define it.

Before the 19hundreds, capitalism in it's purest form ruled the world.

Today, we call the same thing "neo liberalism".

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like aduck = IT IS A DUCK !

On 2/17/2026 at 12:51 PM, JonnyF said:

Decimated by importing cheap immigrant labour that drives wages down.

Ah, of course. If it weren't for the pesky immigrant we'd all be rich.

Are these the same cheap immigrants that supposedly raise house prices?

I venture a comparison:

A person needing 2-3 jobs today is automatically in financial dire straits. A modern day "wage slave".

A slave in the Roman Empire: A good slave was not cheap to buy. The "owner" had every reason to keep the slave healthy and productive. At old age and after decades of "service", the slave was still taken care of by "the master". A form of "social security" for the slaves.

Who is/was better off, I wonder?

The "race" between capital and labor has taken place for a couple of thousand years. OR: "what yields more"?

Definitely "capital". The moral of the story: HAVE CAPITAL, never mind your labor.

34 minutes ago, swissie said:

I venture a comparison:

A person needing 2-3 jobs today is automatically in financial dire straits. A modern day "wage slave".

A slave in the Roman Empire: A good slave was not cheap to buy. The "owner" had every reason to keep the slave healthy and productive. At old age and after decades of "service", the slave was still taken care of by "the master". A form of "social security" for the slaves.

Who is/was better off, I wonder?

the slave who's master isnt spending it all on saving the planet from leaving the deepest ice age since before complex life evolved

1 hour ago, swissie said:

Before the 19hundreds, capitalism in it's purest form ruled the world.

Today, we call the same thing "neo liberalism".

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like aduck = IT IS A DUCK !

Capitalism outperforms alternative economic systems.

48 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Ah, of course. If it weren't for the pesky immigrant we'd all be rich.

Are these the same cheap immigrants that supposedly raise house prices?

The remarkable aspect of immigrants is their resilience and contributions, as they often thrive without relying on social services or housing, and they never grow old. They are magical human beings.

1 minute ago, Fact said:

Capitalism outperforms alternative economic systems.

Yes indeed. Especially for those that have "Capital".

The ones that build machines, build houses, build aircraft (the laborers) are the eternal losers. Again: Have capital.

Just now, swissie said:

Yes indeed. Especially for those that have "Capital".

The ones that build machines, build houses, build aircraft (the laborers) are the eternal losers. Again: Have capital.

They receive compensation for their efforts.

On 2/17/2026 at 12:59 AM, Lucky Bones said:

"Friend of mine" story.

Bought a duplex every 2 years?

Bit short on detail Spidey.

Sounds like a barstool tale.🙃🙃

You can achieve this by purchasing a duplex with a loan and renting it out. After generating some profit, you can repeat the process. I know people who have done this, and I can tell you that it’s not passive income.

6 hours ago, KhunLA said:

... that doesn't need saving.

Humans on the other hand, seemed destined to self destruct ... eventually.

Exactly. There is no tipping point or point of no return for the earth. Its amusing how they spin that.

If we vanished tomorrow in a 100 000 years you would never know we were even here. The earth would heal from any damage.

I read a while back that you could imagine the entirety of human existence as a single layer of paint in the height of the WTC buildings.

The earth will shake us off like a dog does water.

1 minute ago, Fact said:

They receive compensation for their efforts.

Modestly. No yacht in Monaco without the labor of the etrnal losers.

On 2/15/2026 at 11:42 PM, swissie said:

So again, what happened to our "wages" in the west?

What happened is that we lifted from poverty approximately one billion Chinese. The ones that suffered the blunt of the Chinese low-cost labour competition are exactly "the weakest part of society".

Investors, but also professionals, those with a higher level of education, have not suffered from Chinese competition. There are no Chinese doctors, Chinese lawyers, Chinese accountants, Chinese tax advisors, etc. in the West.

Meanwhile, investors have poured exorbitant sums into China, where their capital has enjoyed much higher returns than in the West, due to its scarcity in post-Maoist China.

But something else also happened. When your father was the one earning a living, the typical family didn't have four cell phones, nor Netflix and Spotify subscriptions. The average car in Europe weighed around 900 kg, not the 1,500 kg or more it weighs today. And it didn't come with ABS, ASR, ADAS, electronic fuel injection, catalytic converter, climate control, power steering, power windows, proximity sensors, power tailgate, heated seats and steering wheel, etc.

The typical gas water heater was still lit with a match, and the average television measured between 17 and 24 inches.

Finally, the average life expectancy in Switzerland during the 1960s was approximately 71 to 72 years. Today, the average life expectancy at birth in Switzerland is among the highest in the world, approximately 84.3 to 84.5 years. And these 12 additional unproductive years come at a cost.

On 2/15/2026 at 4:58 PM, Fact said:

1) Globalization

2) Currency devaluation.

3)mass importation of parasites

On 2/15/2026 at 5:42 PM, swissie said:

What happened to our "wages" in the west?

I think the answer is fairly obvious, and nobody has talked about it in this thread yet...

Nations in the West have recognized that they can live far beyond their means and fuel unnatural growth, by indebting themselves.

To get rid of some of this debt, they are inflating themselves out of it. Whoever defined that 2% inflation or more is a good economic target should be shot.

The Americans are masters in living beyond their means and it finally has turned to bite them. But the countries mentioned here like China have learned quickly and are blowing up their own bubbles.

While they are at the beginning of this growth cycle, we are at the end of it.

7 hours ago, Fact said:

Capitalism outperforms alternative economic systems.

It certainly outperforms funneling the nation’s wealth into the pockets of a tiny few.

Privatized profits, socialized costs.

On 2/16/2026 at 4:28 PM, Fact said:

Everyone has a different perspective on these terms. Some believe socialism refers to a large welfare state. What is your definition of neoliberalism?

It’s not capitalism is my first problem with neoliberalism.

It’s a system in which Government has put its thumb on the scale in favor of the hyper wealthy, by example, legislating against labor unions.

Even Regan argued that the capitalism needs to be held in check by labor unions.

Neoliberalism has wiped out the working class and is currently devouring the middle class.

Feel free to believe this is sustainable.

At some point the pitchforks will come out.

On 2/17/2026 at 6:02 AM, davb said:

The Chinese leadership is just fine being enriched with quasi-slave labor.

People throw around these terms.

https://cdn.walkfree.org/content/uploads/2023/09/27162417/GSI-Snapshot-China.pdf

So 4 per 1000.

Oh

https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-states/

3.3 per 1000

https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-kingdom/

At least the UK is a bit better.

Thailand, Land of Smiles, is 5.7 per 1000. And people love going on holiday to the UAE, with 13.4 slaves per 1000

China is not the worst in that respect. The US has twice the rate of slavery as the UK

Of course people always point to the plight of the Uyghur people, where the prison system is used for economic production; cheap labour. But the 13th Amendment permits involuntary servitude as punishment for a crime. 60% of US convicts work, usualy for no pay. 23% of federal prisoners work in industry, sometimes paid, maybe 10-20 cents an hour, a workforce of about 40,000. About 7% of state prisoners are used as cheap labour for industry, about 80,000 worker convicts. So 120,000 people are basically exploited by government as cheap labour. Maybe they deserve it. Perhaos its about slavery, some slaves are ok. 120,000 government controlled slaves is perfectly acceptable. China's using a few more, so its not really about the principle of slavery, its just objectionable that China is using more than the US.

Speaking of "quasi slavery" which is a kind of made up term, denoting "A criminal activity in which people are recruited, harboured, transported, bought, or kidnapped to serve an exploitative purpose, such as sexual slavery, forced labor, or child soldiery", a big fuss right now in the US is whether American billionaires operated a system of quasi-slavery.

One of the benefits of the current surge in illegal immigrant detentions, is increased illegal immigrant labour by the federal government. In 1950, two years before the enactment of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), the comprehensive body of federal law governing immigration. Congress passed what stands today as the legal authority for voluntary paid labor in immigration detention facilities. Previously, the Geneva Convention restricted the use of POW labour. During the McCarthyite era, there was a spike in immigrant detentions. The DOJ was facing challenges, so it claimed, in maintaining order, and suggested the detainees should work, voluntarily of course (in reality people were threatened with solitary confinement if they refused to work). The objective of the1950 law generally was to authorize the DOJ to surpass the appropriations process to incur what was characterized as recurring administrative expenses.

Detainees were paid, and since 1950, its been fixed at $1 per day. In 1990 someone went to court over these pay rate, arguing the detainees were effectively federal employees, but the court ruled against that, preserving the $1 a day rate. Currently, this detained immigrant workforce is about 70,000 people. This law might have been behind the thinking to allow undocumented workers to continue to work on farms, but return to a detention centre at night. That surely meets the definiton of "quasi slavery". Those workers cannot change job.

30 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Even Regan argued that the capitalism needs to be held in check by labor unions.

Reagan's policies are credited by most for breaking the unions. From AI ...