People Leaving Due To Visa Restriction

[emmezeta]

Two things have happened for those over age 50 with non Thai spouse. If spouse is over age 50 they now have to maintain another 800k baht Thai account for retirement (at the same time that the new 3 month rule is taking effect) so this means 1.6 million baht in very low interest accounts for an extended period every year. A nightmare for many.

I'm still wondering why the retirement Visa start at 50 years.

In Italy and US the standard pension age is 65!

Most parts of Europe are very close.....

I'm close to 50 and the idea of putting 800k bath forever on a thai bank account is not very interesting. Buying a condo with the current regulations is the same as trown money at blackjack in Las Vegas...

Anyway thai islands are nice when in Europe it's winter time!

[mesohappy314]

I know a guy on 2 years overstay but I dont think visa rules have anything to do with it

Big Canadian, round about AngSila?

[lopburi3]

Two things have happened for those over age 50 with non Thai spouse. If spouse is over age 50 they now have to maintain another 800k baht Thai account for retirement (at the same time that the new 3 month rule is taking effect) so this means 1.6 million baht in very low interest accounts for an extended period every year. A nightmare for many.

I'm still wondering why the retirement Visa start at 50 years.

In Italy and US the standard pension age is 65!

Most parts of Europe are very close.....

I'm close to 50 and the idea of putting 800k bath forever on a thai bank account is not very interesting. Buying a condo with the current regulations is the same as trown money at blackjack in Las Vegas...

Anyway thai islands are nice when in Europe it's winter time!

I am from the US and retired at age 50 from government service. Those who retire from military service are even younger. The age here used to be 60 with special consideration of 55 with higher proof of income.

[Jingthing]

Two things have happened for those over age 50 with non Thai spouse. If spouse is over age 50 they now have to maintain another 800k baht Thai account for retirement (at the same time that the new 3 month rule is taking effect) so this means 1.6 million baht in very low interest accounts for an extended period every year. A nightmare for many.

I'm still wondering why the retirement Visa start at 50 years.

In Italy and US the standard pension age is 65!

Most parts of Europe are very close.....

I'm close to 50 and the idea of putting 800k bath forever on a thai bank account is not very interesting. Buying a condo with the current regulations is the same as trown money at blackjack in Las Vegas...

Anyway thai islands are nice when in Europe it's winter time!

You must lead a sheltered life. Some people are rich and never have to work and don't want to, others retire early. Some decide to retire before death. You don't need a pension to retire or for the visa here, just cash.

You usually spend down the 800K over the year so its not quite as bad as you say.

[emmezeta]

I'm still wondering why the retirement Visa start at 50 years.

In Italy and US the standard pension age is 65!

Most parts of Europe are very close.....

I'm close to 50 and the idea of putting 800k bath forever on a thai bank account is not very interesting. Buying a condo with the current regulations is the same as trown money at blackjack in Las Vegas...

Anyway thai islands are nice when in Europe it's winter time!

I am from the US and retired at age 50 from government service. Those who retire from military service are even younger. The age here used to be 60 with special consideration of 55 with higher proof of income.

Well of course for me "retirement" means "pension" and the italian government is pushing the age up every year very close to 65 even if I had payed a lot of money for 30 years....

Yes, government and military get pension earlier, and rich people doesn't need it.....

But to be able to stop working at 50 is a huge task, i could but i don't have a family with kids.....

[sabaijai]

For every one that leaves, four come in to take their place.

Good point.

[sabaijai]

For every one that leaves, four come in to take their place.

I think you should take a look at Pattaya, its the quietest i have ever known it. Even bars are shutting up early as they have no customers. Many many bars for sale.

Even some builders have stopped there projects because houses are NOT selling (confirmed by property developer i know)

The opposite seems to be happening in Chiang Mai.

[aliciaann1988]

Okaaaaay! This is kinda freaky for me to find out. I'm going to Thailand for 8 months. The visa people are giving me a single entry on a non-immagrant visa. I wanted two entries. But yeah, whatever. Well the visa guy told me to apply for an extension while I'm over there...scary! I'm going to volunteer at an orphanage in a Nonghai village, and I dont have journalism or other business I'll be doing over there. All this visa crap is so confusing, I don't even know if I'll be able to stay that long! And it seems like no one knows the actual rules, costs, and complete info I would like to be informed of. So if ANYONE OUT THERE is reading this and has experiance with applying for an extension, please contact me. It would be much appreciated.

[tartempion]

I came here to escape the rat race. But being treated like a rat, that is a different matter altogether.

Must be the quote of the year!

[LivinLOS]

Okaaaaay! This is kinda freaky for me to find out. I'm going to Thailand for 8 months. The visa people are giving me a single entry on a non-immagrant visa. I wanted two entries. But yeah, whatever. Well the visa guy told me to apply for an extension while I'm over there...scary! I'm going to volunteer at an orphanage in a Nonghai village, and I dont have journalism or other business I'll be doing over there. All this visa crap is so confusing, I don't even know if I'll be able to stay that long! And it seems like no one knows the actual rules, costs, and complete info I would like to be informed of. So if ANYONE OUT THERE is reading this and has experiance with applying for an extension, please contact me. It would be much appreciated.

Be aware that volunteer work is still work and requires a work permit.. Thats a full topic in itself and non trivial to get.

[Beachbunny]

Where else to go? Vietnam, Philippines, Cambodia, China.......maybe even Malaysia. Lots of alternatives to this place in the region and surely others across the big pond like Panama and Ecuador.

You might want to take Ecuador off the list. Their currency is the U.S. dollar. My cousin's family lives there and she said it's getting very expensive to live there.

beachbunny

[distortedlink]

Many of my freinds have left, but mostly due to financial difficulties as their overseas investments earn less money in the current economic climate. Still others are leaving becasue of the visa restrictions and many not coming because the welcome mat appears a little frayed.

But where else to go?

Taht's the big question.

Lbya has nice beaches.

Seems like a load of Destitutes with no where to go.

[Firefan]

Yeah, finding alternatives can be a challenge but certainly not impossible. If I was in visa-trouble and if I was a bit older I would look towards Malaysia pr maybe Philippines.

I do think that 1 of my friends left just as much due to his day-trading income being reduced by volatile markets and USD weakness - but the visa challenges was the final deciding factor.

Cheers!

[JetsetBkk]

These people have many times the value of a retiree, who while spends their money (always nice to get) don't produce anything.

And whose fault is that? There are many retirees who would love to work - not for the money, but for something useful to do - but the regulations forbid it. Why is that? What are the Thais afraid of? Are they afraid of some guy from the West with 30 - 40 years experience of working - and enough money to retire - teaching them a few things? What a stupid waste of resource.

Sorry lopburi3, just read your reply. You put it much better than my rant above.

those on retirement can contribute greatly. Unfortunately here the full potential has not been appreciated and the "no work permit" is an example of that; so those that want to publicly help are prevented from doing so and must keep there teaching among the family. There is a great deal of wisdom in age

Maybe they are afraid because some of us have a brain and can think freely and can speak out against injustice. I really think the ruling elite are terrified that the "game" will be exposed and the masses will wake up from a long coma. Ignorance is bliss...........it is the order of the day. Free thinking people are a threat to the status quo. They know that we know...........so to speak.

Nail, hammer, head.

[selftaopath]

I don't know anyone who left.

But I have contact through other forums with several Germans, Austrians and Swiss - all with a Thai wife - who thought they will retire to Thailand within a view years. Many have changed this plan. Some think they will just visit Thailand for some time each year - mostly to avoid the winter in Europe. There are several reasons:

Money related: Pensions tend to be cut down in EU. The currency exchange rate (to the CHF) has changed about 15% within the last year.

Visa related: The uncertainty of the visa situation was considered a minor problem at the age of 40+, but is now, at 60+, a drawback. Older people want a save and stable situation. If they sell up everything in EU and move here, they want a legal right to stay here, not a temporary permission, extended year by year.

Health and social related: some of them are not so healthy any more and feel uncertain to move to a country where they can not speak the language. The main concern is communication with doctors. Many are afraid that they will miss their social circle and may not find a replacement in Thailand; this all the more, as there is more and more negative talk about Thailand in forums: they are afraid that their buddies that they know from the forums will change their mind too, and not move to Thailand for retirement.

Many of this people have property in Thailand, mostly a house in a Moo Ban near Pattaya but others have a house in the village of their wife. This investments is considered a loss by most of them. This leads to a grudge and a negative attitude against Thailand. Many of them feel cheated by 'the Thais'. It is not clear, what exactly is meant by 'the Thais': individuals, rules or the government.

Regards

Thedi

Nice post; thanksThedi.

Keoki

[selftaopath]

There never were any statistics to this effect,

Indeed.

I'm wondering why the thai gvt doesn't release those datas...

I can't believe that they don't have them... Total of visas issued per year, per type, per nationality etc.

My guess : the figures, and the trend, are way too high ! It would be like an embarrassment.

Could it not be documented simply because it would take effort to do so?

Keoki

[lazeeboy]

I don't know anyone who left.

But I have contact through other forums with several Germans, Austrians and Swiss - all with a Thai wife - who thought they will retire to Thailand within a view years. Many have changed this plan. Some think they will just visit Thailand for some time each year - mostly to avoid the winter in Europe. There are several reasons:

Money related: Pensions tend to be cut down in EU. The currency exchange rate (to the CHF) has changed about 15% within the last year.

Visa related: The uncertainty of the visa situation was considered a minor problem at the age of 40+, but is now, at 60+, a drawback. Older people want a save and stable situation. If they sell up everything in EU and move here, they want a legal right to stay here, not a temporary permission, extended year by year.

Health and social related: some of them are not so healthy any more and feel uncertain to move to a country where they can not speak the language. The main concern is communication with doctors. Many are afraid that they will miss their social circle and may not find a replacement in Thailand; this all the more, as there is more and more negative talk about Thailand in forums: they are afraid that their buddies that they know from the forums will change their mind too, and not move to Thailand for retirement.

Many of this people have property in Thailand, mostly a house in a Moo Ban near Pattaya but others have a house in the village of their wife. This investments is considered a loss by most of them. This leads to a grudge and a negative attitude against Thailand. Many of them feel cheated by 'the Thais'. It is not clear, what exactly is meant by 'the Thais': individuals, rules or the government.

Regards

Thedi

Nice post; thanksThedi.

Keoki

thailand is only expensive if you dont have any money ,visa's again are only a problem if you dont have any money ,if you dont have enough money to live in thailand then you,re in trouble anywhere in the world ,work a bit longer till you can afford to live off your savings ,its that simple........

[samran]

These people have many times the value of a retiree, who while spends their money (always nice to get) don't produce anything.

And whose fault is that? There are many retirees who would love to work - not for the money, but for something useful to do - but the regulations forbid it. Why is that? What are the Thais afraid of? Are they afraid of some guy from the West with 30 - 40 years experience of working - and enough money to retire - teaching them a few things? What a stupid waste of resource.

I don't disagree with you at all. I'd prefer to see some sort of component in the rules that allows for some sort of part time work. I think you are exactly right with the skills and experience question. No doubt. Just that my point was if you are running an immigration programme, the preference would be for young skilled immigrant workers, who have many more years of their lives to pay Khun Tax man.

Maybe they are afraid because some of us have a brain and can think freely and can speak out against injustice. I really think the ruling elite are terrified that the "game" will be exposed and the masses will wake up from a long coma. Ignorance is bliss...........it is the order of the day. Free thinking people are a threat to the status quo. They know that we know...........so to speak.

Nail, hammer, head.

Unfortunaltely this comment and way of thinking for me is the one of the biggest loads of trollop that I have read here on this sight and is reflective of people who actually don't work here but feel comfortable making comment anyway.

Any farang will tell you who actually has a successful business here is that the reason they are hired and paid quite well is for the very reasons you think they aren't. My clients value criticism, new approaches to changes in their work methods and new...ahem...international ways of doing things. This goes for governement who hires legions of foreign educated consultants to help develop policy, it goes for various government departments who won't hire Thai grads unless they have an overseas masters degree.

It goes for many SET listed companies who are falling over themselves to bring in modern practices to set them apart from the heard on the SET. I work for a company who is doing very well and gets paid very handsomly by so called 'establishment' companies to modernise them to make themsevlves attractive to foriegn investors and competitive in the Thai market. So do many, many others.

The comment is so wrong at so many levels I don't know where to start.

[Heng]

thailand is only expensive if you dont have any money ,visa's again are only a problem if you dont have any money ,if you dont have enough money to live in thailand then you,re in trouble anywhere in the world ,work a bit longer till you can afford to live off your savings ,its that simple........

They should make a big sign with the above (complete with the odd spacing and incorrect punctuation use to make it authentic) in all AOT airport arrival halls.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Heng

[PeaceBlondie]

thailand is only expensive if you dont have any money ,visa's again are only a problem if you dont have any money ,if you dont have enough money to live in thailand then you,re in trouble anywhere in the world ,work a bit longer till you can afford to live off your savings ,its that simple........

They should make a big sign with the above (complete with the odd spacing and incorrect punctuation use to make it authentic) in all AOT airport arrival halls.

Heng, Heng - once an English teacher, always an English teacher!

[RogueLeader]

Bye bye, have a good flight home!

The reason for Thailand's looming tourist crisis in a nutshell: irritating complacency.

I've spent the last six months here on this trip, on and off, and I've noticed that there's more and more push to attract the 'high-end' tourist.I believe this to be a mistake on the part of the Thai tourist board. I have also seen more agression and greed on the part of the locals than before.

Thailand will lose visitors to its neighbours if this continues. It will lose foreign investment. After that, they have rice, bananas and palm oil.

[gdhm]

thailand is only expensive if you dont have any money ,visa's again are only a problem if you dont have any money ,if you dont have enough money to live in thailand then you,re in trouble anywhere in the world ,work a bit longer till you can afford to live off your savings ,its that simple........

Agree with the first, but disagree with the second and agree with the last.

Regarding your second opinion.

Money is NOT the main problem for most regarding Visas, its the inconsistencies or Rule interpretations, the frequent adjustment of rules, the effort involved to get all the ever changing equirements EVERY year AND the reporting every 90 days (when the Visa only runs for 1 year).

For most (but not all) the money requirements are not the main problem although who wants to go through so many hoops and keep paying to do so every year when out tenure here seems so fragile.

I am sure many would elect to accept a higher financial requirement for the option of a 5 year Visa and some stability in their lives. Those who could not afford this would have to fall back on the 1 year Visa.

Let us not forget MANY of us have Thai wives and children.

Does Immigration not feel it has a duty to ALSO protect its Thai citizens married and often dependent upon Foreign husbands (occasionally foreign wives) provided Thailand is not adversely affected or at risk.

Regards, Dave

[Heng]

Let us not forget MANY of us have Thai wives and children.

Does Immigration not feel it has a duty to ALSO protect its Thai citizens married and often dependent upon Foreign husbands (occasionally foreign wives) provided Thailand is not adversely affected or at risk.

I certainly sympathize with those who met their Thai significant others abroad, started families, and are having trouble getting the entire family moved over here, but those who started families on 30 day tourist visas are no different than illegal aliens in the west sneaking in, having babies, and claiming that they should be able to stay forever because their babies are there.

[Manchester]

Bye bye, have a good flight home!

I've spent the last six months here on this trip, on and off, and I've noticed that there's more and more push to attract the 'high-end' tourist.I believe this to be a mistake on the part of the Thai tourist board. I have also seen more agression and greed on the part of the locals than before.

All in 6 months huh?

[LivinLOS]

Let us not forget MANY of us have Thai wives and children.

Does Immigration not feel it has a duty to ALSO protect its Thai citizens married and often dependent upon Foreign husbands (occasionally foreign wives) provided Thailand is not adversely affected or at risk.

I certainly sympathize with those who met their Thai significant others abroad, started families, and are having trouble getting the entire family moved over here, but those who started families on 30 day tourist visas are no different than illegal aliens in the west sneaking in, having babies, and claiming that they should be able to stay forever because their babies are there.

And they would do that in 90 days within 6 months

Of course that also ignoring the vast difference where the westerner would be supporting the child and contributing only not taking social services and welfare from the state. But thats a different topic.

Edited September 18, 2007 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

These people have many times the value of a retiree, who while spends their money (always nice to get) don't produce anything.

And whose fault is that? There are many retirees who would love to work - not for the money, but for something useful to do - but the regulations forbid it. Why is that? What are the Thais afraid of? Are they afraid of some guy from the West with 30 - 40 years experience of working - and enough money to retire - teaching them a few things? What a stupid waste of resource.

I don't disagree with you at all. I'd prefer to see some sort of component in the rules that allows for some sort of part time work. I think you are exactly right with the skills and experience question. No doubt. Just that my point was if you are running an immigration programme, the preference would be for young skilled immigrant workers, who have many more years of their lives to pay Khun Tax man.

Maybe they are afraid because some of us have a brain and can think freely and can speak out against injustice. I really think the ruling elite are terrified that the "game" will be exposed and the masses will wake up from a long coma. Ignorance is bliss...........it is the order of the day. Free thinking people are a threat to the status quo. They know that we know...........so to speak.

Nail, hammer, head.

Unfortunaltely this comment and way of thinking for me is the one of the biggest loads of trollop that I have read here on this sight and is reflective of people who actually don't work here but feel comfortable making comment anyway.

Any farang will tell you who actually has a successful business here is that the reason they are hired and paid quite well is for the very reasons you think they aren't. My clients value criticism, new approaches to changes in their work methods and new...ahem...international ways of doing things. This goes for governement who hires legions of foreign educated consultants to help develop policy, it goes for various government departments who won't hire Thai grads unless they have an overseas masters degree.

It goes for many SET listed companies who are falling over themselves to bring in modern practices to set them apart from the heard on the SET. I work for a company who is doing very well and gets paid very handsomly by so called 'establishment' companies to modernise them to make themsevlves attractive to foriegn investors and competitive in the Thai market. So do many, many others.

The comment is so wrong at so many levels I don't know where to start.

And while that may be true in the private sector, do you really feel that this is how the visa regulations are crafted ?? To encourage this transfer of knowledge ??

[gdhm]

Let us not forget MANY of us have Thai wives and children.

Does Immigration not feel it has a duty to ALSO protect its Thai citizens married and often dependent upon Foreign husbands (occasionally foreign wives) provided Thailand is not adversely affected or at risk.

I certainly sympathize with those who met their Thai significant others abroad, started families, and are having trouble getting the entire family moved over here, but those who started families on 30 day tourist visas are no different than illegal aliens in the west sneaking in, having babies, and claiming that they should be able to stay forever because their babies are there.

Not sure what category you place me in then, but I am not sure I appreciate the undercurrent of your generalisation.

I met my current wife here in Thailand as a newish friend of my first wife (duped also by my ****first Thai wife as was I).

Following my divorce in Thailand after 3 months of marriage (together 6 weeks) my current wife and I got to know each other better first as friends, then fell in love and married. My current and hopefully last Thai wife has a 4 year old child (my stepson).

We married whilst I was in Thailand on a 30 day VOA. The VOA was logical, as when I first arrived back in Thailand for the divorce of my first wife I had no idea what the future held for me and I anticipated returning to Spain quickly.

After my, now, wife and I realised we had a loving future together and married I existed on a few more VOAs whilst I sorted out the necessary paperwork, initial Visa and documents to apply for a Retirement or marriage Visa. I went for a retirement Visa as the advice at the time seemed to suggest this was the preferable one.

I have no baby of my own as my wife is in her 40s and had a dangerous childbirth with her first. My reason for feeling I should be allowed to stay is NOTHING to do with riding on the back of a baby but BECAUSE I love my Thai wife and stepson and recognize they wish to live here, that they would probably not be happy on Spain as they are close to family and friends, love Thai and its way of life. I also appreciate and admit the truth that I can provide a better quality of life for my wife and stepson in Thailand as my money does go further than it would in Spain. I do not apologise for that fact, I am just grateful that is the case as I can give my family more. Wouldn't any husband wish to do that.

If I was forced out eventually, would my wife and stepson be better off, happier leaving their home country to go with me. -NO. Would they enjoy such a comfortable quality of life (and I am NOT well off) -NO.

IF they decided leaving Thailand with me was too much, then the family would be destroyed as I doubt I could run two families living apart (how many could). Not to mention that for many people a marriage is NOT "you live there for 4 months I will visit you for 1 or 2 months and then leave again for 4 months".

Just my Humble Opinion on what family and marriage mean.

As a loving, caring, responsible husband I assessed (as best I could) what was best for my family and came up with the logic that me adapting to my wife and stepson's country was easier than vice versa AND additionally I liked Thailand and its people.

To do so was not without loss. None of my worldly possessions can be brought here logically as Import duties for retirees make it a nonsense, I have left all my family and friends behind as well as my culture and way of life AND as I cannot speak Thai I have little quality conversation except on Forums. Nevertheless I am happier than at any time in my life.

I hope Thailand allows me to stay and look after my family until death. In reverse ,my wife could stay and live in the EU forever without Visa problems once we had proven the marriage genuine etc. Much better, kinder and more humane than Thailand's offering to foreign husbands and wives of Thai Nationals.

Regards, Dave

[beechguy]

Bye bye, have a good flight home!

The reason for Thailand's looming tourist crisis in a nutshell: irritating complacency.

I've spent the last six months here on this trip, on and off, and I've noticed that there's more and more push to attract the 'high-end' tourist.I believe this to be a mistake on the part of the Thai tourist board. I have also seen more agression and greed on the part of the locals than before.

Thailand will lose visitors to its neighbours if this continues. It will lose foreign investment. After that, they have rice, bananas and palm oil.

I agree that there seems to be a little more agression and greed in some areas, Pattaya

for example. But, what's the Tourist board doing that discourages any real tourist from coming here? Many can still come and stay 90 days within 6 months without a visa, and tourist visas don't seem to be a problem.

[JetsetBkk]

Maybe they are afraid because some of us have a brain and can think freely and can speak out against injustice. I really think the ruling elite are terrified that the "game" will be exposed and the masses will wake up from a long coma. Ignorance is bliss...........it is the order of the day. Free thinking people are a threat to the status quo. They know that we know...........so to speak.

Nail, hammer, head.

Unfortunaltely this comment and way of thinking for me is the one of the biggest loads of trollop that I have read here on this sight and is reflective of people who actually don't work here but feel comfortable making comment anyway.

Any farang will tell you who actually has a successful business here is that the reason they are hired and paid quite well is for the very reasons you think they aren't. My clients value criticism, new approaches to changes in their work methods and new...ahem...international ways of doing things. This goes for governement who hires legions of foreign educated consultants to help develop policy, it goes for various government departments who won't hire Thai grads unless they have an overseas masters degree.

It goes for many SET listed companies who are falling over themselves to bring in modern practices to set them apart from the heard on the SET. I work for a company who is doing very well and gets paid very handsomly by so called 'establishment' companies to modernise them to make themsevlves attractive to foriegn investors and competitive in the Thai market. So do many, many others.

The comment is so wrong at so many levels I don't know where to start.

I believe you are concentrating on the business aspect of this - "can think freely and can speak out against injustice".

I was considering more the social and political side - the fact that whenever I see, read or hear of injustice, whether by the police or politicians (corruption, nepotism or whatever), I will talk about it with my Thai g/f and she will talk about it with her friends and family. Slowly but surely, the idea that the police, rich people and politicians have "power" over ordinary people will be questioned more and more by ordinary Thais.

I hope so anyway.

This is what I thought "JR Texas" was trying to say.

[samran]

I believe you are concentrating on the business aspect of this - "can think freely and can speak out against injustice".

I was considering more the social and political side - the fact that whenever I see, read or hear of injustice, whether by the police or politicians (corruption, nepotism or whatever), I will talk about it with my Thai g/f and she will talk about it with her friends and family. Slowly but surely, the idea that the police, rich people and politicians have "power" over ordinary people will be questioned more and more by ordinary Thais.

I hope so anyway.

This is what I thought "JR Texas" was trying to say.

I see your point but I do believe that within most universities you'll find your radicals and people who speak out against this. The fact of the matter is, Thai society is conservative and non-confronational for 99.9% of the time, and then, like all good passives who don't let their frustration out occasionally, boils over at some point. This is the nature of the beast...so deal with it.

It often humours me that people forget so quickly anyway. What were the public rallies every Friday night prior to the coup all about? What were the 1992 demonstrators all about? etc etc etc.

I often find the whole critique by some posters that 'the man' is keeping the local population down and that some good old (western) fashion rabble rousing is needed to be neo-colonialist in a way...that the Thai people need some sort of masser telling the lil brown people how they need to run their affairs.. and that they are stupid for not listening.

Fact of the matter is that the Thai psyche, for better or worse, is going to be non-conforntational, and where people (and there are plenty of them about) can and do change things is behind the scenes with the mundane technical stuff of due dilligence for public companies, encouraging people to pay their taxes on time, building curriculum for schools (as my cousin does) or working on good corporate governance for public officials, as I've done in the past, led by committed Thai officials. Genuine change does happen, and it contunue to happen. Two steps forward, one step back.

I doubt JR Texas for all his (or is it her?) hot air on the issues have never been to a public consulation rally run by government official or to an anti coal power plant rally. If he has, then he would have seen public protest in action. If he'd been to one of those things he'd actually see how sensitive government is to public opinion on many issues, rather than the other way around.

- Land ownership for foreigners? I dare say that most if not all the 'elite' would be either neutral or pre-disposed to the idea. Try selling that one to the elecorate though. The average Thai person genuinely thinks that if you give a foreigner a piece of land they'll take it back with them to Farang land. It ain't the big wigs, its the litle people you have to worry about sometimes. Remember, Thaksin only had to sell his own phone company to the Singaporeans down the road, and that made him more hated than running a corrupt government. My analysis was that selling Shin corp was one of the key reasons for his downfall, not his corruption.

- Reforming state enterprises so that people can get better services? Watch the protests by the unions when you try.

- Lessening corruption? Ha ha, the fact of the matter is, Thai people in cahoots with it all. Sure the big guys are screwing the country to an extent. But if cracking down on them means that I can't slip the Mr Policeman 100 baht instead of the 500 baht fine for speeding/not wearing a seatbelt/illegally parking then it begins to be not worth it. If cracking down on the big guys means that my little shop or bar can't run without all the proper licenses, then I'm not sure I want such a crackdown. There is a quid-pro-quo to everything.

Yes there is a gap between rich and poor here, and there will be for a long time. A Chiompi revololtion ain't gonna change much very quickly nor is meaningless or hypocritical hot air.