Flight OG269: At Least 88 Bodies Found At Phuket Airport Crash Site

[JetsetBkk]

From the "Professional Pilots" forum: (pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3595297&postcount=185)

Thai Carriers

I spent most of my life living and flying in BKK for a few airlines. Orient Thai was ATROCIOUS. So was Thai Sky and Phuket Air. I could probably guess that a bad airplane combined with poor pilots was the exact reason for this.

Who would land in Phuket with short runway, dangerous terrain, one ILS and one VOR? Not to point all the blame there, but Udom, the owner, would fire people for not breaking rules, even filling out the log book. If you could get ahold of them, they all say -nil. This is 1-2-Go's fault and more specifically Orient Thai.

Here is why... one time I got off of STBY at 8:00 pm. I had a few drinks with my girl before preparing for sleep. Scheduling calls me for a last minute Chiang Mai run. I inform them that I have consumed 5 glasses of jack and Coke. Do you know what they said ??????? It's only a short flight and the Captain will do both legs... there is no one else! (I refused)

I have a million other stories similar to this one which eventually got me dismissed for refusing to take a piece of xxxx airplane into China at night in bad weather. These people are dead because of CEO Udom, no one and nothing else. I hope it ruins them!

[mrtoad]

From the "Professional Pilots" forum: (pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3595297&postcount=185)

Thai Carriers

I spent most of my life living and flying in BKK for a few airlines. Orient Thai was ATROCIOUS. So was Thai Sky and Phuket Air. I could probably guess that a bad airplane combined with poor pilots was the exact reason for this.

Who would land in Phuket with short runway, dangerous terrain, one ILS and one VOR? Not to point all the blame there, but Udom, the owner, would fire people for not breaking rules, even filling out the log book. If you could get ahold of them, they all say -nil. This is 1-2-Go's fault and more specifically Orient Thai.

Here is why... one time I got off of STBY at 8:00 pm. I had a few drinks with my girl before preparing for sleep. Scheduling calls me for a last minute Chiang Mai run. I inform them that I have consumed 5 glasses of jack and Coke. Do you know what they said ??????? It's only a short flight and the Captain will do both legs... there is no one else! (I refused)

I have a million other stories similar to this one which eventually got me dismissed for refusing to take a piece of xxxx airplane into China at night in bad weather. These people are dead because of CEO Udom, no one and nothing else. I hope it ruins them!

If this is accurate which I have no reason to doubt, this is truly shocking.

[Abrak]

What is noticeable from PPRUNE is not so much the reports of the incompetence of Orienthai and 1-2-Go (that could always be down to disgruntled ex-employees) BUT there has not been one single post from one single pilot who has come to their defense. It is as though their incompetence is a well known but generally unspoken fact within the industry. Quite frankly I am amazed they are still flying pending an investigation....

[Crash999]

Well, that's what got me thinking. Isn't 100 feet above the runway a little late to abort ? In fact, could the landing gear retract in that time (100 feet to touchdown) ?

This one is more like 20 feet-

[keemapoot]

What is noticeable from PPRUNE is not so much the reports of the incompetence of Orienthai and 1-2-Go (that could always be down to disgruntled ex-employees) BUT there has not been one single post from one single pilot who has come to their defense. It is as though their incompetence is a well known but generally unspoken fact within the industry. Quite frankly I am amazed they are still flying pending an investigation....

You know, I was thinking the same thing. PPRuNe is a professional pilots' forum. I would have expected to see someone from that airline sticking up for it, or defending it. There has been nobody with a non-critical view. And, I've strolled through the other threads, and see lots of dissenting opinions on other airlines. That does not bode well for Orient-Thai, 12go.

[cdnvic]

Well, that's what got me thinking. Isn't 100 feet above the runway a little late to abort ? In fact, could the landing gear retract in that time (100 feet to touchdown) ?

The landing gear doesn't have to retract first, though the extra drag will affect the rate of climb.

[keemapoot]

Well, that's what got me thinking. Isn't 100 feet above the runway a little late to abort ? In fact, could the landing gear retract in that time (100 feet to touchdown) ?

The landing gear doesn't have to retract first, though the extra drag will affect the rate of climb.

Yes, and that rate of climb may be relevant in wind shear conditions.

[cloudhopper]

Retracting the landing gear is normally not a high priority item on a missed approach because the additional drag of the extended gear is not too significant at low speeds and has almost no effect on initial rate of climb c/w flap settings. In fact for many aircraft the most drag occurs while the gear is in transition due to open gear doors.

Definitely no more budget airline flights for me!

[jumnien]

What is noticeable from PPRUNE is not so much the reports of the incompetence of Orienthai and 1-2-Go (that could always be down to disgruntled ex-employees) BUT there has not been one single post from one single pilot who has come to their defense. It is as though their incompetence is a well known but generally unspoken fact within the industry. Quite frankly I am amazed they are still flying pending an investigation....

You know, I was thinking the same thing. PPRuNe is a professional pilots' forum. I would have expected to see someone from that airline sticking up for it, or defending it. There has been nobody with a non-critical view. And, I've strolled through the other threads, and see lots of dissenting opinions on other airlines. That does not bode well for Orient-Thai, 12go.

Remember, it's the Professional Pilots RUMOR Network!

[chinthee]

What is noticeable from PPRUNE is not so much the reports of the incompetence of Orienthai and 1-2-Go (that could always be down to disgruntled ex-employees) BUT there has not been one single post from one single pilot who has come to their defense. It is as though their incompetence is a well known but generally unspoken fact within the industry. Quite frankly I am amazed they are still flying pending an investigation....

You know, I was thinking the same thing. PPRuNe is a professional pilots' forum. I would have expected to see someone from that airline sticking up for it, or defending it. There has been nobody with a non-critical view. And, I've strolled through the other threads, and see lots of dissenting opinions on other airlines. That does not bode well for Orient-Thai, 12go.

Remember, it's the Professional Pilots RUMOR Network!

Yes, but I'll take a pro's rumor any day to a layman's rumor!

[Supaporn]

From the "Professional Pilots" forum: (pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3595297&postcount=185)

Thai Carriers

I spent most of my life living and flying in BKK for a few airlines. Orient Thai was ATROCIOUS. So was Thai Sky and Phuket Air. I could probably guess that a bad airplane combined with poor pilots was the exact reason for this.

Who would land in Phuket with short runway, dangerous terrain, one ILS and one VOR? Not to point all the blame there, but Udom, the owner, would fire people for not breaking rules, even filling out the log book. If you could get ahold of them, they all say -nil. This is 1-2-Go's fault and more specifically Orient Thai.

Here is why... one time I got off of STBY at 8:00 pm. I had a few drinks with my girl before preparing for sleep. Scheduling calls me for a last minute Chiang Mai run. I inform them that I have consumed 5 glasses of jack and Coke. Do you know what they said ??????? It's only a short flight and the Captain will do both legs... there is no one else! (I refused)

I have a million other stories similar to this one which eventually got me dismissed for refusing to take a piece of xxxx airplane into China at night in bad weather. These people are dead because of CEO Udom, no one and nothing else. I hope it ruins them!

If this is accurate which I have no reason to doubt, this is truly shocking.

I can confirm it did happen. I will even add one - They tried to call out a 747 pilot to fly with a 757 Captain (short on 757 First Officiers) in a 757. The 757 Captain refused to fly with other pilot (hmm which meant the 747 guy accepted the idea - strange, but ops normal for many, if not most, of the pilots on that fleet). I am sure Udom and his little (I use that term loosley) side-kick, Namfon, were pissed.

Common practice at Orient Thai.

[simon43]

Maestro, the plane was approaching the runway from the east, with a very strong headwind coming from the west. The plane actually crashed quite close to the east end of the runway, (meaning that it was still travelling fast when it crashed).

Simon

[Supaporn]

What is noticeable from PPRUNE is not so much the reports of the incompetence of Orienthai and 1-2-Go (that could always be down to disgruntled ex-employees) BUT there has not been one single post from one single pilot who has come to their defense. It is as though their incompetence is a well known but generally unspoken fact within the industry. Quite frankly I am amazed they are still flying pending an investigation....

Disgruntled employess to be sure. I think almost all the 'professional' pilots that have left Orient Thai/1-2-Go are disgruntled. They left the airline because they either were fed up with trying to make the airline safe and run what professional people would call a normal safe airline - only to be met at all sides with an owner/CEO who was bound and determined to make it unsafe by his horrendous policies. Or they ran for their lives because they feared they would die or be involved in an accident due to shoddy maintenance. I know of at least 3 people that as they left told Udom that he was going to crash an airplane (specifically mentioning the MD82 fleet) and kill alot of people if kept it up. Were they disgruntled? YES, Udom, and his policies put thelives of friends and thousands of unknown passengers at great risk. Are they even more disgruntled? YES, those policies have now killed friends and many passengers.

I would venture to bet the only pilots that would come to the defense of the airline would be a cadre of pilots that are still there and want to keep their jobs and will do anything to do so. Which amazingly enough is what they do everyday - break rules,law, and put the public and their innocent crews at great risk in order to keep the likes of Udom from firing them. Will they speak out? And admit to their deeds - I don't think so.

The incompetence is known but the mighty Baht dealt under a table somewhere keeps it handily shelved in the regulators books. The statements that it will hurt Thailand and tourism attempt to quiet the truth....and it seems succeeds.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Supaporn

[simon43]

I just took a bike ride from my hotel and along the beach that borders the runway. The remains of the plane have been moved from the crash site and are now located close to the small tsunami memorial, quite near to the sea end of the runway. There are also some flowers and a cross in remembrance of one of the French passengers.

The tsunami memorial location would seem to be a fitting place for those who wish to lay flowers etc. It is reasonably screened from the sea storms by the trees and is accessible by foot from the national park 'soi'.

Simon

[mr_hippo]

Photos of aircraft seem to suggest low speed impact and that would mean that the aircraft was below stall speed therefore would be unable to climb.

It has been suggested that the response time was too slow - how would you speed it up? Have the crews in their fire suits for a whole shift, sitting in the vehicle at the closet access point? How long do you think it would take a fire crew to get from their crew room, into the appliance and drive about 2 kms?

The fire exercise - how many of us have taken part in fire drills - school, workplace, cruise ship, etc? They normally work well but would the same thing happen in an emergency?

How long do you think it takes to plan a major airport incident exercise?

[TAWP]

mr_hippo and sunrise again posts nonsence-post in an important thread...

mr_hippo: If other airports manage, surely thai's would be able too? Or are you saying there is a reason hey cannot?

[Jai Dee]

OK, lets leave the unsubstantiated rumours and accusations of trolling out of this thread please.

[jeebusjones]

Mr. Hippo:

Three minutes is the international standard response time. The response in Phuket should have been quicker because:

A) The weather was terrible that day so they should have been on extra alert

B ) The pilot appears to have given a "Mayday," giving at least some advance notice before the crash

C) Phuket airport is very small, and therefore the emergency equipment is never very far from any point on the runway. This is very different from other, larger international airports. And yet, these other airports (Hong Kong, for example) have managed emergency response times of 1 minute in past events.

Sadly, as rainman previously pointed out, I suspect the emergency crews were probably watching soap operas at the time of the crash.

Photos of aircraft seem to suggest low speed impact and that would mean that the aircraft was below stall speed therefore would be unable to climb.

It has been suggested that the response time was too slow - how would you speed it up? Have the crews in their fire suits for a whole shift, sitting in the vehicle at the closet access point? How long do you think it would take a fire crew to get from their crew room, into the appliance and drive about 2 kms?

The fire exercise - how many of us have taken part in fire drills - school, workplace, cruise ship, etc? They normally work well but would the same thing happen in an emergency?

How long do you think it takes to plan a major airport incident exercise?

I just reread your post and feel the need to write more. Your analogy to a school firedrill is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Fire drills at work, school etc are done by non-professionals, and the goal is COMPLETELY different.

It's like seeing a doctor botch a routine procedure in the ER. Would you stick up for the doctor by saying, "Well, you couldn't do it?" It doesn't make any sense at all.

Emergency response teams at airport are professionals. They have one job, and that job is to respond immediately and efficiently in times of crisis. Your comparison is irrelevant, illogical and incredibly ignorant.

Edited September 24, 2007 by jeebusjones

[chinthee]

I was further reading on PPRuNe where some pilots had cited other response times they knew about at other airport crashes. 90 seconds was cited as well as under one minute. 3 Minutes is the outside edge of acceptability evidently. I think the Phuket response might be more than 3 minutes judging from the amateur video taken by the passengers.

[meemiathai]

Photos of aircraft seem to suggest low speed impact and that would mean that the aircraft was below stall speed therefore would be unable to climb.

It has been suggested that the response time was too slow - how would you speed it up? Have the crews in their fire suits for a whole shift, sitting in the vehicle at the closet access point? How long do you think it would take a fire crew to get from their crew room, into the appliance and drive about 2 kms?

The fire exercise - how many of us have taken part in fire drills - school, workplace, cruise ship, etc? They normally work well but would the same thing happen in an emergency?

How long do you think it takes to plan a major airport incident exercise?

I don't know what it is like in the west. But in HK, all those bloody fire drills are faked. All those taking part would assemble at a nearby assembly point and they all arrive at scene within seconds. Bullocks!

[JetsetBkk]

There have been many news reports, some of them conflicting, but some basic facts that should have been easily available to reporters are missing, or perhaps I have missed them.

In what direction did the pilot attempt to land? East or West?

At what end of the runway did the plane wreck end up? East or West?

--

Maestro

There has been a lot of discussion about this on PPRUNE.

There is of course only one piece of concrete that acts as both runway 09 and 27. It is labelled 09 at the western end - the end nearest the sea - and 27 at the eastern end. So it's easy to see how first reports could have got this mixed up.

The consensus at PPRUNE is that he landed on runway 27 - i.e. flying east to west and into the wind. This ties in with witness reports that the plane turned sharp right before crashing - since the crash site is to the north of the airport - and with the videos showing the wind blowing left to right, i.e. from the west when videoing from the south.

Edit:

Sorry, didn't see Simon had already answered this point.

Edited September 24, 2007 by JetsetBkk

[meemiathai]

mr_hippo and sunrise again posts nonsence-post in an important thread...

mr_hippo: If other airports manage, surely thai's would be able too? Or are you saying there is a reason hey cannot?

Where is it that you know other airports have managed? Were they fast enough last time when that jet exploded in Japan?

Any facts from you? Those so called response times are mostly unreachable in reality. They boast about how fast they can be there.

[mr_hippo]

I'm not going to do a search of this thread but I am sure you will find that the start of the 3 minute response time starts from the closest access point to the runway, not from the crew room. That time is only for the first responders, for others it is response time+.

The school fire drill comparison - why is it not valid? The point of a school fire drill and an airport exercise is the same thing - to see what would/could happen in case of emergency. How many different crash scenarios are there? Can you plan for all emergencies?

The Phuket exercise was part of airport certification. The plan was worked out well in advance and there would have been rehearsals for it.

The mayday call - how much time elapsed between the mayday and the alarm? The emergency crews might, and I stress 'might' have been able to get to the closest holding point (access point) where they would have to wait for permission to go onto an active runway. If they were at the holding point and the aircraft was at the other end of the runway, permission would have been denied until the aircraft stopped, if the aircraft had passed, they may have been told to 'proceed with caution'.

[meemiathai]

What is noticeable from PPRUNE is not so much the reports of the incompetence of Orienthai and 1-2-Go (that could always be down to disgruntled ex-employees) BUT there has not been one single post from one single pilot who has come to their defense. It is as though their incompetence is a well known but generally unspoken fact within the industry. Quite frankly I am amazed they are still flying pending an investigation....

Disgruntled employess to be sure. I think almost all the 'professional' pilots that have left Orient Thai/1-2-Go are disgruntled. They left the airline because they either were fed up with trying to make the airline safe and run what professional people would call a normal safe airline - only to be met at all sides with an owner/CEO who was bound and determined to make it unsafe by his horrendous policies. Or they ran for their lives because they feared they would die or be involved in an accident due to shoddy maintenance. I know of at least 3 people that as they left told Udom that he was going to crash an airplane (specifically mentioning the MD82 fleet) and kill alot of people if kept it up. Were they disgruntled? YES, Udom, and his policies put thelives of friends and thousands of unknown passengers at great risk. Are they even more disgruntled? YES, those policies have now killed friends and many passengers.

I would venture to bet the only pilots that would come to the defense of the airline would be a cadre of pilots that are still there and want to keep their jobs and will do anything to do so. Which amazingly enough is what they do everyday - break rules,law, and put the public and their innocent crews at great risk in order to keep the likes of Udom from firing them. Will they speak out? And admit to their deeds - I don't think so.

The incompetence is known but the mighty Baht dealt under a table somewhere keeps it handily shelved in the regulators books. The statements that it will hurt Thailand and tourism attempt to quiet the truth....and it seems succeeds.

Aren't they governed by any international authorities? Do you mean anyone rich enough to run an airline can do whatever they like without being under supervision?

[simon43]

I posted somewhere before .. if the response time was more than 3 minutes, then this is worrying because the airport fire-station lies approximately opposite the crash location, on the other side of the runway and taxiway, and about 400 metres from the crash site.

Simon

[Maestro]

There has been a lot of discussion about this on PPRUNE...The consensus at PPRUNE is that he landed on runway 27 - i.e. flying east to west and into the wind...

...

Sorry, didn't see Simon had already answered this point.

Thank you both for your replies.

Yesterday, I read through PPRUNE and saw no agreement on the subject there. Totting up the various opinions, I arrived at 6:5 in favour of runway 27. Now, with Simon’s eye-witness confirmation, I know that runway 27 it was, east to west, into the wind, crash site near eastern end of the runway.

--

Maestro

[TAWP]

mr_hippo and sunrise again posts nonsence-post in an important thread...

mr_hippo: If other airports manage, surely thai's would be able too? Or are you saying there is a reason hey cannot?

Where is it that you know other airports have managed? Were they fast enough last time when that jet exploded in Japan?

Any facts from you? Those so called response times are mostly unreachable in reality. They boast about how fast they can be there.

Did you bother to read this thread or linked sources before you replied to any posts...ever?

[TAWP]

I'm not going to do a search of this thread but I am sure you will find that the start of the 3 minute response time starts from the closest access point to the runway, not from the crew room. That time is only for the first responders, for others it is response time+.

The school fire drill comparison - why is it not valid? The point of a school fire drill and an airport exercise is the same thing - to see what would/could happen in case of emergency. How many different crash scenarios are there? Can you plan for all emergencies?

The Phuket exercise was part of airport certification. The plan was worked out well in advance and there would have been rehearsals for it.

The mayday call - how much time elapsed between the mayday and the alarm? The emergency crews might, and I stress 'might' have been able to get to the closest holding point (access point) where they would have to wait for permission to go onto an active runway. If they were at the holding point and the aircraft was at the other end of the runway, permission would have been denied until the aircraft stopped, if the aircraft had passed, they may have been told to 'proceed with caution'.

What on earth are you going on about?

The time is counted from T of the event.

And your fantasy that the airplane would still be in motion and that they had to wait for it to stop has no basis in reality as is making a mockery of the event. The film-clip clearly shows that the plane isn't in motion (...) and the rescue-crew isn't around. What motion on the airplane would they be waiting for some minutes AFTER the passengers themselfs are getting out?

[meemiathai]

The time is counted from the time of call. That is the time they are notified of an incident.

[meemiathai]

I posted somewhere before .. if the response time was more than 3 minutes, then this is worrying because the airport fire-station lies approximately opposite the crash location, on the other side of the runway and taxiway, and about 400 metres from the crash site.

Simon

Is it confirmed already that they were that late? If it really had taken more than 3 minutes it is a very long time.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Maestro
Deleted sarcastic, false and defamatory comment.