I'm not going to buy into this. I would just point out that there are the mods (and admin) and then there are the members. But at the end of the day, we are all members - it is not an 'us against them' thing. This is patently obvious to most people in Bedlam, but I suspect that not all people see the relationship this way.

Hey Kayo. Don't forget to drink your coffee with moderation.

There's been one major change already.

This time it's me boring Kayo!

I think he was having a dig at me OC - for stating the (to Bedlamites) bleeding obvious.

Flagrant disregard for the rules will be punished.

I've always had a problem with people with this attitude.I suppose it started at school.

CB,there are ways to tell people.Telling them they will be punished is complete crap.Adults post on this forum, no?

I have been thinking about the OP and I agree that the wording could have been better. It was not intended as insulting or talking down. I was trying to make (apparently unsuccessfully) the distinction between discussing moderation in a reasonable manner and outright criticism of it. The former would be allowed and the latter not.

To those who found offence in my post I apologise. Politically correct I am not.

CB

Agreed, and often I think the "ultimate taboo" (ThaiVisa Lesse Mageste?) gets enforced a bit too strictly sometimes.

With the government cyber cops blocking access to websites at the slightest perceived offence in this regard it is not possible to be too strict on this point. Call it self-censorship, and you will be absolutely right. It is the price to be paid for the survival of any website with a vast viewership in Thailand.

--

Maestro

If there is a topic that a Member would like to bring to a MOD/ADMINs notice and they do it in a courteous, non confrontational manner, this should receive an answer, if not sanction...

...It is clear, MOD Issues not to be discussed! Put it in a PM.

Absolutely, Mossfin. Every reasonable enquiry you make by PM to a moderator/administrator deserves an answer. If you – meaning any member – have a particular recent incident in mind where you feel you were not treated fairly by a mod, the correct thing to is to PM an administrator such as (listed in alphabetical order ) dr_Pat_Pong, george, huski, Totster. Look at them as the court of appeals. I remember at least one occasions where I recognised that I gave a warning based on a misunderstanding on my part after the member in question signalled it to me. And there was one time where another moderator alerted me to the fact that I must have read something wrongly. Of course, in both cases I promptly set things right.

I look at TV's mods as something akin to sergeants in the Army. You don't question their intelligence. You don't question their authority. You don't question one of their orders. As I used to tell my troops, "Your's is not to question why. Your's is only to hit the ground and give me 20...."

As you can see, being a ThaiVisa member is not quite as tough as being a soldier in farang prince’s troops But useless argumentation/trolling by PM with a mod probably still wouldn’t get you far, but this is not what Mossfin meant, anyway.

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Maestro

As my father used to say "Nothing in moderation - everything to excess!"

Agreed, and often I think the "ultimate taboo" (ThaiVisa Lesse Mageste?) gets enforced a bit too strictly sometimes.

With the government cyber cops blocking access to websites at the slightest perceived offence in this regard it is not possible to be too strict on this point. Call it self-censorship, and you will be absolutely right. It is the price to be paid for the survival of any website with a vast viewership in Thailand.

--

Maestro

You've mis-understood me there - I was likening the discussion of moderation to the ThaiVisa equivalent of Lesse Majeste. They cyber cops couldn't care less if people are talking about moderation in a forum.

I think he was having a dig at me OC - for stating the (to Bedlamites) bleeding obvious.

Strange to think that someone posting a picture of a small, yellow, cartoon-like smiley face face drinking a cup of coffee is considered to be "having a dig"

^Yep, a smilie can be worth ah, well at least a dozen words. Don't see this one get used much.

I'm glad this thread has gone the Bedlam way. I was starting to get concerned while drinking my coffee this morning.

But just to bring it back a notch, I found this in the FAQ of some website, and it seemed eminently sensible.

Q: Moderation seems restrictive. Is it really necessary?

In short, yes.

As you might have noticed, (this site) gets a lot of comments. Thousands a day. Tens of thousands a month. At any given time, the database holds 50,000+ comments. A single story might have a thousand replies- and let's be realistic: Not all of the comments are that great. In fact, some are down right terrible, but others are truly gems.

The moderation system is designed to sort the gems and the crap from the steady stream of information that flows through the pipe. And wherever possible, it tries to make the readers of the site take on the responsibility.

The goal is that each reader will be able to read (this site) at a level that they find appropriate. The impatient can read nothing at all but the original stories. Some will only want to read the highest rated of comments, some will want to eliminate anonymous posts, and others will want to read every last drip of data, from the First Posts! to the spam. The system we've created here will make that happen. Or at least, it sure will try...

Goals

* Promote quality, discourage crap.

* Make (this site) as readable as possible for as many people as possible.

* Do not require a huge amount of time from any single moderator.

* Do not allow a single moderator a "reign of terror."

On the whole, we think the moderation system works really well, but often people disagree. Their disagreement usually stems from different expectations. They see a bunch of moderations countering each other. They see a comment moderated blatantly wrong. A 'Troll' flagged 'Off topic' (or vice versa) and feel that the system is flawed.

Of course it is flawed! It's built upon the efforts of diverse human beings volunteering their time to help! Some humans are selfish and destructive. Others work hard and fair. It's my opinion that the sum of all their efforts is pretty dam_n good.

As an Ex-Mod i can see both sides of the fence, and there simply isn't any solution that will keep everyone happy.

The rules are in place to protect the site, its a business after all, some people go out of their way to break the rules, some people go out of their way to walk the fine line between breaking a rule and not breaking a rule, some people simply enjoy winding people up, some people are just misunderstood.

I hope i don't get into trouble for saying this, but before i left the red team i did open up the idea of being more relaxed in the discussion of moderation, and after a lengthy debate with most (if not all) of the mod and admin team chipping in their opinions it pretty much boiled down to "it would be a nightmare and tie down a number of mods to looking after that subject full time" - The Royalty rule is in place because, quite frankly, its a LAW in Thailand and as this is a Thailand centric website it would be prudent to respect Thai Law (hence the no proxy discussion, no discussion about illegal activities etc) - and whilst the site is not hosted in Thailand, a large percentage of the member base is, so if they blocked it within Thailand they would loose a lot of membership overnight.

From my perspective, Moderating this site is not an easy task, moderators are seen as little Hitlers, every decision they make is scrutinized by people who do not have the full story, people get misunderstood or taken in the wrong context and then you spend half your time having to justify why you took the action you took. People take things personally and take any moderation action as a personal grudge. People get their pet 'hated' mods and try to find any way to discredit them etc. Sometimes it felt like moderating Thai Visa became a war between mods and members (one of the reasons i left, i didn't like that environment) - Ok sometimes mods make a bad judgment call, or react in the heat of the moment - they are human, not robots. Sometimes people just refuse to see why an action was taken, even though its obvious. Sometimes people are just destined to 'not like you' whatever.

We are all individuals (except Crow boy, hes not human) we all read things differently, we all have our own opinions on how things should and should not be done. its impossible to manage all of that and keep everyone happy all the time. One thing i did find, and this may come as a shock to some of you, is if you approach it in a calm manner with a well thought out point/idea put in a non-aggressive way, its amazing what the mod team can and will do. This site is constantly evolving and growing (much like us, the members)

Keep it real!!

(grabs his flame proof coat, as he's sure some of his enemies will take this opportunity to have another dig)

Nice post Wolfie, I can't say there is anything in it I disagree with, especially what you said about Crowboy - he is not an individual, he is in fact the human equivalent of dark matter and composed of inverted supra-strings that vibrate in unison with the inherent pulse of all potential universes everywhere at once except for on his Telecaster, and all the people in my head (unusually) agree he's just swell.

And hi Insight, don't be a stranger now.

ermm... Wolfie and Meadish, wouldn't your posts (re: CB) constitute discussion of a moderator and his actions!

:Banned: !!!

But seriously, WOlfie, good post.

As a bartender, I from time to time find myself having to expell people who take the piss out of my hospitality.

Sometimes (after a few ) i may react over the top when expelling people, -human fallibility - but broadly speaking people are my guests when they are in my bar, and in a similar fashion I allow a lot, but I won't have the few rules I have disrespected. Similarly, when I have a lock-in, it's a bit like Bedlam. But again, although there are less rules (smoking inside is allowed after hours! ) there ARE still rules, and I WILL still expel people for breaking them.

Shame about Momo. (I wonder if my PM box may receive a message telling me why we lost another good, open minded and fun poster.... last I heard, she was flying in from Hong Kong to go to a tv BBQ )

As an Ex-Mod i can see both sides of the fence, and there simply isn't any solution that will keep everyone happy.

The rules are in place to protect the site, its a business after all, some people go out of their way to break the rules, some people go out of their way to walk the fine line between breaking a rule and not breaking a rule, some people simply enjoy winding people up, some people are just misunderstood.

I hope i don't get into trouble for saying this, but before i left the red team i did open up the idea of being more relaxed in the discussion of moderation, and after a lengthy debate with most (if not all) of the mod and admin team chipping in their opinions it pretty much boiled down to "it would be a nightmare and tie down a number of mods to looking after that subject full time" - The Royalty rule is in place because, quite frankly, its a LAW in Thailand and as this is a Thailand centric website it would be prudent to respect Thai Law (hence the no proxy discussion, no discussion about illegal activities etc) - and whilst the site is not hosted in Thailand, a large percentage of the member base is, so if they blocked it within Thailand they would loose a lot of membership overnight.

From my perspective, Moderating this site is not an easy task, moderators are seen as little Hitlers, every decision they make is scrutinized by people who do not have the full story, people get misunderstood or taken in the wrong context and then you spend half your time having to justify why you took the action you took. People take things personally and take any moderation action as a personal grudge. People get their pet 'hated' mods and try to find any way to discredit them etc. Sometimes it felt like moderating Thai Visa became a war between mods and members (one of the reasons i left, i didn't like that environment) - Ok sometimes mods make a bad judgment call, or react in the heat of the moment - they are human, not robots. Sometimes people just refuse to see why an action was taken, even though its obvious. Sometimes people are just destined to 'not like you' whatever.

We are all individuals (except Crow boy, hes not human) we all read things differently, we all have our own opinions on how things should and should not be done. its impossible to manage all of that and keep everyone happy all the time. One thing i did find, and this may come as a shock to some of you, is if you approach it in a calm manner with a well thought out point/idea put in a non-aggressive way, its amazing what the mod team can and will do. This site is constantly evolving and growing (much like us, the members)

Keep it real!!

(grabs his flame proof coat, as he's sure some of his enemies will take this opportunity to have another dig)

Thanks for this post. It explains a lot to those of us who will never be moderators!

Kayo, you lost another "fun" poster here mainly because, as you very well know, she decided to post PMs and Bedlam material on that other place you hang out, aside from multiple attempts to cause trouble for mods and members here.

You can go have "fun" with her over there, but I'd hate to be there on the day when the hyenas start feeding on each other.

"S"

If there is a topic that a Member would like to bring to a MOD/ADMINs notice and they do it in a courteous, non confrontational manner, this should receive an answer, if not sanction...

Absolutely, Mossfin. Every reasonable enquiry you make by PM to a moderator/administrator deserves an answer. If you – meaning any member – have a particular recent incident in mind where you feel you were not treated fairly by a mod, the correct thing to is to PM an administrator

Thank you Maestro for the prompt response.

But useless argumentation/trolling by PM with a mod probably still wouldn’t get you far, but this is not what Mossfin meant, anyway.

Quite correct.

Thanks again for the response and I do understand it is a difficult job, as my previous posts underline.

Moss

//Edited in consultation with Mossfinn to clear up a misunderstanding - Maestro

In cases where a member believes moderation has been administered incorrectly or wishes for clarification, the procedure (as always, this is nothing new) is to raise the issue first (if possible) with the mod in question, then with another mod or Admin, and finally to send a mail to [email protected] (if a suspension came before the opportunity to question by PM). Suspensions are not administered lightly, and indeed that all moderation actions are reviewed by all the mods. If mods feel that an improper action has been taken, they may take issue with the action.

//Edited in consultation with the poster to bring it into line with the changes made in the preceding post - Maestro

We've had good and insightful posts from moderators and ex-moderators and it's been an all-too-rare glimpse into how things are moderated around here.

//Edited to bring it in line with changes made to preceding posts. - Maestro

I was under the impression that we basically agreed on keeping this discussion on moderation general, ie that no individual moderation action would be brought up. I have now deleted a post about an individual moderation action and the reply thereto.

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Maestro

It's good to see moderation being discussed in a thread, please keep it going

I was under the impression that we basically agreed on keeping this discussion on moderation general, ie that no individual moderation action would be brought up. I have now deleted a post about an individual moderation action and the reply thereto.

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Maestro

OK, good call, but thanks for letting the thread stay open.

We've had good and insightful posts from moderators and ex-moderators and it's been an all-too-rare glimpse into how things are moderated around here.

My first thought was that Crow Boy was brave to start this topic, apparently trusting that Bedlamites are mature enough to handle it, and he has been proven right.

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Maestro

Good thinking.

OK I am fine with the modding, no idea what is going on but I understand the desire to keep the place civil and within bounds for various reasons.

So I didn't really read all the posts on this thread.

Can someone be banned from Bedlam but not from all of Thaivisa? Then does their thing still say "banned", or what?

How does that work?