We will not go down

In Gaza tonight

They are going down.

Thanks for sharing your propaganda.

Meanwhile children are dying.

On both sides.

Did you see the news these last few days? do you see how many Palestinian kids got killed?

Why don't you tell your buddies in Hamas to

Stop firing the rockets Stupid!

It is too bad that the Palestinians have elected a terrorist organization that is commited to destroying all Israelis to represent them. Now, they are reaping what they have sown.

Palestinians failed democracy, not the other way around

Nolan Finley /

February 5, 2006

Democracy didn't fail when the Palestinians used their first truly free vote to install terrorist leaders. The Palestinians failed. Again.

Those who see the Hamas victory as evidence that democracy is not the answer for all people in all places ignore the unique nature of the Palestinians. They lack a key ingredient for sustaining freedom - self-interest.

The Palestinians' lust for Jewish blood is stronger than their desire to lead peaceful, secure lives, to rule an independent state, to lift themselves out of their misery.

That, given the opportunity, they would give their votes to terrorists should not be a shock. This is the same people who deified Yasser Arafat, the father of modern-day terrorism.

Terror defines Palestinians

Under Arafat, terrorism became an inseparable part of the Palestinian identity. He perfected the use of terror as a means of gaining a political wedge, proving that those willing to shed blood without relenting, without remorse and without regard to external pressure will be rewarded with a seat at the table.

Their suicide bombers should have made the Palestinians international pariahs. Instead, apologists depicted the violence as the natural response of a persecuted people. The excuses invited more terror, from more sources and in more places.

Even the Bush administration pretended that the Palestinians were the victims of terrorists within their midst, but beyond their control. The Hamas victory makes it impossible to sustain that pretense.

The Palestinians knew what Hamas was when they gave it their votes. They chose terror over peace, just as they did five years ago when they answered Arafat's call to unleash a brutal wave of terror to cover his impotence at the bargaining table.

The defenders of terror are now spinning a new scenario, one that has Hamas morphing into a political organization and renouncing violence.

Hamas is unrepentant

But note that Hamas is not saying that. Its leaders remain committed to wiping the Jewish blot from the Middle East.

Even if Hamas mouthed the right words, who could believe that it has suddenly turned away from decades of violence?

Terrorism is the history of the Palestinian people, and it will be their future if they are allowed to again slip past the supposed zero-tolerance policy on terror.

Hamas is no different from al-Qaida. Both are terrorist groups, and both target innocent victims.

It was considered in the interest of world stability to smash the al-Qaida-backed Taliban government in Afghanistan. Why isn't it similarly desirable to smash the Hamas government in the Palestinian territories?

Hamas doesn't want to lead, it wants to kill, and has done so in more than 200 terrorist attacks against Israel during the past five years, including dozens of suicide bombings.

Pretending Hamas can be something other than it is will only lead to more killing.

Nolan Finley is The News' editorial page editor. Contact him at [email protected] or 313-222-2064. Watch Nolan Finley on "Am I Right?" at 8:30 p.m. Fridays on Detroit Public TV, Ch. 56.

Meanwhile children are dying.

On both sides.

Did you see the news these last few days? do you see how many Palestinian kids got killed?

Why don't you tell your buddies in Hamas to

Stop firing the rockets Stupid!

Funny accusation ,honestly!

We will not go down

In Gaza tonight

They are going down.

Thanks for sharing your propaganda.

Same to you;for sharing yours too.

Meanwhile children are dying.

On both sides.

Did you see the news these last few days? do you see how many Palestinian kids got killed?

Why don't you tell your buddies in Hamas to

Stop firing the rockets Stupid!

Funny accusation ,honestly!

Your sense of humor is as strange as your sense of right and wrong.

Meanwhile children are dying.

On both sides.

Did you see the news these last few days? do you see how many Palestinian kids got killed?

Why don't you tell your buddies in Hamas to

Stop firing the rockets Stupid!

Funny accusation ,honestly!

Your sense of humor is as strange as your sense of right and wrong.

ok just calm down a little ok evveryone?

You tell'em MiGGy.

it is a great pity that apart from a few minor demonstrations here and there the arab world in general has never found it within their hearts to support their brothers , the palestinians.

for 60 years now the greater arab world has had time , chances and opportunities to aid the palestinian cause , not by repeating the usual anti israeli mantras , but by lifting the palestinians by providing them with education , trading opportunities , technology , investment , a sense of pride in who they are and decent living standards.

instead they have left them to their fate as hopeless pawns in the never ending battle between the state of israel and the extremist arab states and terrorist factions that have had filled the leadership vacuum and had control of palestine for years.

had the arab world looked forward instead of backward then the palestinians could have been given the responsible leadership , peace and stability that would have enabled it to move away from being a medieval resentment filled backwater to being a modern middle eastern state , living in peace with its neighbour.

hamas does need to be eradicated , and unfortunately there is only one way to do that.

Sorry to post late on this, but this thread was only recently pointed out to me (I will probably have a few more posts here as well.)

The "Arab" world is a diverse as any other "world." Some Arabs give the Palestinians lip service, some give more that.  One of the most aggressive supporters over the last ten years was Saddam, when he was fairly ambivilent or even anit-Palestinian before. He thought iy was politically expedient to change his tune.

But despite the lip service, no one seemingly wants to help out in more ways than some funds. Jordan (one of my favorite places in the Middle East) has taken the brunt of the refugees, and the government would dearly like for them to return. And many of these are the wealthy Palestinians.  I was in one home of a very well-off Palestinian, with his beautiful mansion overlooking the Dead Sea and within sight of Israel, and despite his life-style, he still felt like a second-class citizen. But his efforts at microfinancing within the Palestinian community were having very positive results (he only made loans to women and had an over 98% pay-back rate.) At least Jordan has accepted refugees. Many other Arab nations have not accepted any. Only Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon have any real Palestinian populations.

Salaam 'Alaykum.

Thanks to the mods for re-opening this explosive thread, even if it's now in the "adult section".

Eugene, no matter my political opinions. What I said make sense. A lot of Palestinians don't view Hamas as a terrorist organization but as a benevolent group defending their interests and working hard for the development of their country and its people.

حمى الله ش

I don't see anything wrong with this statement.  This is pretty much a matter of fact. Many Palestinians view Hamas as an organization which looks out for their best interests, which develops the community, and which isn't corrupt.

Whether that is an accurate view or not is open to interpretation, but that is certainly the perception of Hamas amongst many Palestinians.

I was holding my breath to proceed in posting in this interesting thread until I finish up my meeting.

To go back to the point that UlyssesG was challenging me to prove a wide reality about human emotions ;which can never get calculated or proved since it is only emotions! and sensed by whom? an enemy or an outsider who is judging the whole picture from a one-sided view.........

Iraq had accepted all the Palestinians refugees since 1948. Most of the leaders in Arab Bath Socialist party were Palestinians too .

Fact:They had generous privileges with their families and could gain the Iraqi nationality.They are/were living in modern buildings constructed by Saddam, Iraqis could not get a chance to get an apartment in these fancy areas that were kept for them.

These reports of Palestinians' killing accidents , that is all after 2003, when all Iraqis are/were being exposed to killing or kidnapped or bombed. They are part of the society there, so what goes around on the country all will effect them all.

You can take a trip to UNHCR in ESCAP compound at Bangkok, to ask how many Iraqi refugees( who are actually Palestinians but with an Iraqi passport) are in Thailand? When I do volunteering help in translation for the Arabic-speaking refugees, I hardly meet a genuine Iraqi with an Iraqi accent applying for asylum,most are Palestinians.

Interesting point. I knew some Palestinians in Iraq, but I never knew there were that many.  Most reports have most refugees being in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.  Are the Iraqi Palestinians now considered Iraqi?

So, what you are saying is that every other Arab country wants nothing to do with the Palestinians, but that Saddam Hussein allowed some to stay in Iraq for some reason and as soon as he lost power all the other Iraqis started slaughtering them. Sounds like I am right.

We are/were all exposed to be killed/slaughtered, ALL IRAQIS: Muslims shia/Sunni ,Christians and Zaidies(they worship the devil-in north of Mosul), Sabia'a .Kurds, Arabs (including Palestinians) ,Turks ! we were all bombed EQUALLY in war and killed by terrorist after!

Stop using sensitive issues just to prove you are right!

She has got you there, Ulysses!  Everyone was/is getting killed, not just the Palestinians.

Not that anyone particularly cares about my opinion, but since since I can post, I will post.

I have spent time in Israel and with the Israeli armed forces.  I have also spend time in Jordan and Lebanon, and I am a veteran of the war in Iraq. And in keeping with disclosure, I have more Palestinian friends than Israeli.

Like it or not, Israel is a state now and is not going away. If Hamas continues to rocket Israel, Israel certainly has the right to strike back.

The Palestinians have been pawns of the world for quite some time now. Something has to be done, and a Palestinian homeland is about all I can think of which MIGHT take care of part of the problem. Israel needs to accept this. After Rabin, Israel has not had anyone who seems to be able to move forward in any significant way.

More Palestinian children are dying than Israeli because Israel have better weapons with more effect on target. However, even one death on either side is one death too many. Rocketing a school where mortars were fired only destroys the school. The Hamas mortarmen fire then run away. I continually was rocketed in Baghdad, but our counter-battery fires were unable to respond because the men firing them were long gone when the rockets lit off. 

It is easy to say but hard to do, but the Isaelis should really focus more on ground operations where they can, if effective, isolate Hamas militia and try to minimze injury and death to cililians. And I know this can be considered hypocritical coming from a man who served in a military where aircraft were used to take out safe-houses in Iraq.

The Palestinians need to understand that not all of them are goingn to get their homes back. Israel is not going to board back on ships and go somewhere else. And the Israelis need to understand that the Palestinians need someplace to stay, someplace to call home.

It seems hopeless now, but the situation in Northern Ireland seemed hopeless, too. 

The Palestinians need to understand that not all of them are goingn to get their homes back. Israel is not going to board back on ships and go somewhere else. And the Israelis need to understand that the Palestinians need someplace to stay, someplace to call home.

It seems hopeless now, but the situation in Northern Ireland seemed hopeless, too. 

Your views seem pretty fair to me. I tend to support Israel because it is so unfashionable to do so and the Palestinaians have plenty of "spokesman" on their behalf already, but I am not against making things as fair as possible for both people's, if they are willing to give in sometimes and try to understand each other's point of view.

I do feel, however, that most Israelis have been ready to trade land for peace for quite some time, but most Palestinians are still fixated on "driving the Jews into the sea". As long as they don't really mean it when they profess to recognize the right of Israel to exist, there can not be any real hope for the future.

She has got you there, Ulysses!  Everyone was/is getting killed, not just the Palestinians.

Not if you go back and look at what I said originally. I mentioned that I am of the opinion that most other Arabs have little use for the Palestinians other than using them as pawns against the Israelis. You seem to agree with me to some extent according to what you have posted.

The "Arab" world is a diverse as any other "world." Some Arabs give the Palestinians lip service, some give more that. One of the most aggressive supporters over the last ten years was Saddam, when he was fairly ambivilent or even anit-Palestinian before. He thought iy was politically expedient to change his tune.

But despite the lip service, no one seemingly wants to help out in more ways than some funds. Jordan (one of my favorite places in the Middle East) has taken the brunt of the refugees, and the government would dearly like for them to return. And many of these are the wealthy Palestinians. I was in one home of a very well-off Palestinian, with his beautiful mansion overlooking the Dead Sea and within sight of Israel, and despite his life-style, he still felt like a second-class citizen. But his efforts at microfinancing within the Palestinian community were having very positive results (he only made loans to women and had an over 98% pay-back rate.) At least Jordan has accepted refugees. Many other Arab nations have not accepted any. Only Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon have any real Palestinian populations.

it is a great pity that apart from a few minor demonstrations here and there the arab world in general has never found it within their hearts to support their brothers , the palestinians.

for 60 years now the greater arab world has had time , chances and opportunities to aid the palestinian cause , not by repeating the usual anti israeli mantras , but by lifting the palestinians by providing them with education , trading opportunities , technology , investment , a sense of pride in who they are and decent living standards.

instead they have left them to their fate as hopeless pawns in the never ending battle between the state of israel and the extremist arab states and terrorist factions that have had filled the leadership vacuum and had control of palestine for years.

had the arab world looked forward instead of backward then the palestinians could have been given the responsible leadership , peace and stability that would have enabled it to move away from being a medieval resentment filled backwater to being a modern middle eastern state , living in peace with its neighbour.

hamas does need to be eradicated , and unfortunately there is only one way to do that.

Sorry to post late on this, but this thread was only recently pointed out to me (I will probably have a few more posts here as well.)

The "Arab" world is a diverse as any other "world." Some Arabs give the Palestinians lip service, some give more that.  One of the most aggressive supporters over the last ten years was Saddam, when he was fairly ambivilent or even anit-Palestinian before. He thought iy was politically expedient to change his tune.

But despite the lip service, no one seemingly wants to help out in more ways than some funds. Jordan (one of my favorite places in the Middle East) has taken the brunt of the refugees, and the government would dearly like for them to return. And many of these are the wealthy Palestinians.  I was in one home of a very well-off Palestinian, with his beautiful mansion overlooking the Dead Sea and within sight of Israel, and despite his life-style, he still felt like a second-class citizen. But his efforts at microfinancing within the Palestinian community were having very positive results (he only made loans to women and had an over 98% pay-back rate.) At least Jordan has accepted refugees. Many other Arab nations have not accepted any. Only Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon have any real Palestinian populations.

If my memory is correct, weren't the Palestines as refugees at one time were in Jordan in mass. And weren't they so troublesome that for Jordan to remove them and thousands were killed.

They rejected the King of Jordans authority, attempted an assasination of the king. Plans were to control increasing more land. They declared the area north of Irbid a liberated zone and annouced they were preparing for a showdown. Black September started a series of events that we now find ourselves in. They weren't very good guests then and aren't very good neighbors today.

Now you are talking!

More Terrorist Crapoganda from zaza!

Israeli hits UN school

Go on and defend criminal acts!

Dastardly Israelis Bomb United Nations School!

By Brian C. Ledbetter · Tuesday, January 6. 2009 11:28

The ambulance-chasing press has rushed to the scene to cover the Israeli-caused carnage, but in all of the coverage I've seen so far, not a single press agency seems to be bothered enough to ask if Hamas was launching rockets from the school.

Because, you know, little facts like whether or not a terrorist group committed a war crime are apparently not relevant to the news story.

Update: You know, one fact which does not escape me is that all of the men carrying bodies in this picture appear to be the right age and physical shape to be Hamas militants.

Not that the press generally knows how to identify militants or anything.

Update 2: Carl in Jerusalem is suspecting that this will become the "Qana" of 2009. Of course, as Carl points out, much of what happened at Qana has proven to be a fraud, so one wouldn't be surprised to find the same hold true of today's events.

It is patently obvious that Hamas has been directing Gaza residents to hide out in the UN schools, as the last few days of wire coverage illustrates—and terrorist groups don't usually offer such advice for free.

UPDATE: The Israeli consulate in New York is reporting via Twitter (how cool is that?) that the initial investigation suggests that mortars were fired from school grounds by Hamas militants, which is obviously what Israel was aiming for.

Additionally, the investigation has revealed that there was potentially a large secondary explosion at the scene, indicating that there was a significant amount of weaponry stored on site as well.

I ask again: WHERE IS THE WORLD-WIDE CONDEMNATION OF HAMAS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS???

Update: Another Hamas human rights violation: The IDF has discovered that another school in the Gaza Strip was being used for weapons storage.

One wonders when our independent news agencies will decide to start to questioning the Hamas party line in this present conflict.

Gaza: Why Israel Bombed UN School, The video Hamas Dont Want You to See

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiDfF9X41KY

If my memory is correct, weren't the Palestines as refugees at one time were in Jordan in mass. And weren't they so troublesome that for Jordan to remove them and thousands were killed.

They rejected the King of Jordans authority, attempted an assasination of the king. Plans were to control increasing more land. They declared the area north of Irbid a liberated zone and annouced they were preparing for a showdown. Black September started a series of events that we now find ourselves in. They weren't very good guests then and aren't very good neighbors today.

 THat is reasonably accurate, but to say they don't make good neighbors now is a pretty big generalization.

How may posters here actually have been to Jordan, Lebanon, or Israel and been amongst the Palestinians there? In general, I have found them to be hard-working, "normal" people who, while they chaff at the travel restrictions and hassles, reallytake no major political action other than attend some of the show funerals.  Most of the better jobs are in Israel, and when it comes down to it, being able to buy a new television is more important to the majority that taking an actual fight to Israel. Yes, they want a homeland, and yes, they want ot feel like full citizens, but really, most I have met mereley want to get on with life, provide for thier children, and enjoy their days.  Pretty much like most people, I think.

More Terrorist Crapoganda from zaza!

Your views seem pretty fair to me. I tend to support Israel because it is so unfashionable to do so and the Palestinaians have plenty of "spokesman" on their behalf already, but I am not against making things as fair as possible for both people's, if they are willing to give in sometimes and try to understand each other's point of view.

It is true that in the medias, the Palestinians have many "spokesmen,"  However, where it counts, in the governments (at least in the US) they have very little pull. Almost all politicians are in Israel's back pocket, mainly due to the hugely powerful Israeli lobby (probably the second most powerful lobby in the US). Politicians who have taken a stance which sides with the Palestinians or the Arab states at the expense of Israel have quicky found themselves out of office as the lobby makes them targets. 

And this is the part which sticks in my craw. WHile I do not seek the dissolution of Israel, and while I respect many of their accomplishments, no foreign country should have that much power in the US. US politicians should not be in fear of taking stances which they think are right.  

Part of this is the fact that the Israelis have worked within the system to become extremely effective lobbyists. But part of this is that many Jewish Americans look seemingly look at anything to do with Israel as a religious matter instead of a national matter. And they have a strong alliance with the conservative Christian movement which preaches that Israel must be kept whole and supported as a God-given responsibility. Posters in the thread originally scoffed that Thai Muslims were siding with the Palestinians, yet how is that different from American Jews and conservative Christians always siding with Israel?

While it makes sense that the interests of the US and those of Israel coincide much of the time, it also makes sense that sometimes, they must diverge.  But when that happens, the US is seemingly handcuffed and cannot take action which contravenes Israeli interests. Even when Israel takes specific action against the US (eg, the USS Liberty bombing), Israel gets a pass from the US.

I have served with the Israeli military, and I have worked with the Palestinians. But as a somewhat senior military officer in the US armed forces, I was one of the few who would express an opinion that maybe marching lock-step with Israel was not always in the best interests of the US.

Yes, the media seems to lean towards the Palestinians at times, but the power certainly leans towards Israel.

It is true that in the medias, the Palestinians have many "spokesmen,"  However, where it counts, in the governments (at least in the US) they have very little pull. Almost all politicians are in Israel's back pocket, mainly due to the hugely powerful Israeli lobby (probably the second most powerful lobby in the US).

I would counter that the powerful Arab lobby and a lot of those powerful oil dollars are the reason that the media and the UN and a lot of buyable votes end up supporting the Palestinian cause to the point of silliness. Those oil dollars are the only reason that they can still get away with causing Israel the problems they do after losing every single war against them, over and over again, and committing terrorist acts against other countries citizens.

Funny how those oil dollars are freely available to cause problems for the Jews, but not so when it comes to improving the Palestinian's living conditions.

The reason that Americans back the Israelis so often is more cultural than religious, but when an Israeli explains their policy on TV it is usually someone who is intelligent and articulate who is explaining calmly and admitting and taking responsibility for some mistakes. Most Arab spokepeople appear to be half mad - yelling and screaming that absolutely everything is the fault of the Jews and never backing down an inch. When they do have a spokesperson who is halfway intelligent, they are usually people who have absolutely nothing to do with the conflict. People notice such things.

Those oil dollars are the only reason that they can still get away with causing Israel the problems they do after losing every single war against them, over and over again.

in Xbox 360 ?

It is true that in the medias, the Palestinians have many "spokesmen," However, where it counts, in the governments (at least in the US) they have very little pull. Almost all politicians are in Israel's back pocket, mainly due to the hugely powerful Israeli lobby (probably the second most powerful lobby in the US).

I would counter that the powerful Arab lobby and a lot of those powerful oil dollars are the reason that the media and the UN and a lot of buyable votes end up supporting the Palestinian cause to the point of silliness. Those oil dollars are the only reason that they can still get away with causing Israel the problems they do after losing every single war against them, over and over again, and committing terrorist acts against other countries citizens.

Funny how those oil dollars are freely available to cause problems for the Jews, but not so when it comes to improving the Palestinian's living conditions.

The reason that Americans back the Israelis so often is more cultural than religious, but when an Israeli explains their policy on TV it is usually someone who is intelligent and articulate who is explaining calmly and admitting and taking responsibility for some mistakes. Most Arab spokepeople appear to be half mad - yelling and screaming that absolutely everything is the fault of the Jews and never backing down an inch. When they do have a spokesperson who is halfway intelligent, they are usually people who have absolutely nothing to do with the conflict. People notice such things.

There is no doubt that various Arabic groups have noticed the effectiveness of the Israeli lobby, and many have started to try and emulate it. I have read a few articles on the subject, but unfortunately, I do not have any links for that right now. Regardless, there is no Arabic lobby who wields even a fraction of the influence that the Israeli lobby has. The Saudi government perhaps has the most influence in the US, but that is not a lobby but rather direct communications with the executive branch. Like Israel or not, their lobby is extremely effective.

Oil money does talk, but that is a far cry from the organized efforts of the Israelis. There really is no way that the various disparate groups within the Arab world, much less the Islamic world, can really act in the unified and focussed method that the Israelis can.

As far as most Arab spokesmen yelling and such, unless you are speaking about the man-in-the-street soundbites, i don't know what you are writing about. Do you watch the Doha Debates? Most of the peopel speaking here, from all points of view, seem ratehr articulate and calm.

Do you watch the Doha Debates? Most of the peopel speaking here, from all points of view, seem ratehr articulate and calm.

I found the Doha Debates on the web and will watch some. They look interesting.

I was not talking about these, but the guests on CNN, Al Jaazeerah, BBC who are supposed to speaking in favor of the Palestinians. They are almost always screaming ninnies.

Have to agree with the above ( plus one ). I have been watching the English Aljezeera coverage of the war and I must admit to being impressed by the level headed , objective coverage and perspective of the majority of the Arab commentators.

Sorry Mr Grant, just an observation.

Those oil dollars are the only reason that they can still get away with causing Israel the problems they do after losing every single war against them, over and over again.

in Xbox 360 ?

According to you, all of the other Arabs love the Palestinians and have invited them to live in their countries and on top of that they keep all these winning wars against the Israelis, but the darn Jews just won't go back where they came from. Like most terrorist enablers, you are just a fountain of complete nutty bullshite!

Have to agree with the above ( plus one ). I have been watching the English Aljezeera coverage of the war and I must admit to being impressed by the level headed , objective coverage and perspective of the majority of the Arab commentators.

Sorry Mr Grant, just an observation.

What I have noticed most about Aljezeera is that the Western "reporters" - and pretty much everyone else - make no attempt to be objective in the least. The questions are totally leading and everyone spouts the Arab party line. However, I must admit that the BBC and CNN are little better.

It is funny that everyone claims that FOX News is so biased - and I admit that they are - but at least they tell do two sides of the story. The others hardly bother at all.

If my memory is correct, weren't the Palestines as refugees at one time were in Jordan in mass. And weren't they so troublesome that for Jordan to remove them and thousands were killed.

They rejected the King of Jordans authority, attempted an assasination of the king. Plans were to control increasing more land. They declared the area north of Irbid a liberated zone and annouced they were preparing for a showdown. Black September started a series of events that we now find ourselves in. They weren't very good guests then and aren't very good neighbors today.

 THat is reasonably accurate, but to say they don't make good neighbors now is a pretty big generalization.

How may posters here actually have been to Jordan, Lebanon, or Israel and been amongst the Palestinians there? In general, I have found them to be hard-working, "normal" people who, while they chaff at the travel restrictions and hassles, reallytake no major political action other than attend some of the show funerals.  Most of the better jobs are in Israel, and when it comes down to it, being able to buy a new television is more important to the majority that taking an actual fight to Israel. Yes, they want a homeland, and yes, they want ot feel like full citizens, but really, most I have met mereley want to get on with life, provide for thier children, and enjoy their days.  Pretty much like most people, I think.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" so said Edmund Burke.

Yes most of the better jobs are in Isreal, but why is that. When the Jews stated returning to their homeland in the 1930's Isreal wasn't what it is today. The Jews worked hard to change their enviorment and suceeded.

Much money has been pored into the Palestine people, but it hasn't been used properly. Their leader of many decades died a very wealthy man, the political entities seem fit to purchase military hardware and to use it against a neighbor that'd help build them a nation if they'd only live in peace, a true peace and not lip service for a few months before missles or bombers began anew.

Not to say there aren't good hard working Palestine people, there are but the quote by Burke about sums up. When the people stop voting for self serving politicos whose existence depends on strife and hate, and put honest capable people in their stead. Then and only then will peace come.

Iran Syria et al pour their arms and provacateurs into anything that doesn't comform to their way of life and anything of western thought isn't their way of life. And if the west wasn't a problem they'd go back to a warlord style of life as exists in Afganistan or Pakistan, sect against sect Arab vs non Arab

The Isrealis aren't without their faults but I can see their point of view and agree with it a lot easier than I can stomach the blind ignorance from the opposing side.